How much freedom does the client have?

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Ruark,

No need to apologize, that's what this place is for...answering questions. When it comes to DG hunting, most PH's will be getting their clients close, certainly under 100 yards and quite a bit closer than that normally. The same reasons apply, nobody wants a wounded animal. The goal is a close shot at a relaxed animal, thus minimizing the chance at a risky follow up.

 

[Bsums]

I appreciate all your input, and I apologize for taking your time. This is a question that's been on my mind for, actually, many years, but until I found this forum, I never had the opportunity to directly ask African PHs. The marvels of the internet, eh?!

I guess what I'm trying to do is re-create some of the scenarios I was fascinated with as a younger bloke, reading about J.A. Hunter or Karamojo Bell dropping charging beasts left and right until their gun barrels were red hot. I remember back in the late 50s, a wealthy local oilman went on some big safari, came back to town and showed movies of his trip in a local hotel. We went to see it. Remember, this was in the 50s; the films were grainy and of course in B&W, but they were very real. He took down those same three: elephant, lion and buff, all in charges, all close enough to fog your glasses. I was 8 or 9 years old at the time, and when it was over, it took me a while to put my eyes back in their sockets and start breathing again.

But those are all good points, e.g. about a wounded animal whipping around and running to a populated area and becoming a danger to the local citizenry. Of course, my knee-jerk reaction is something like, "awwww, yeah, but I wouldn't miss..." but I won't be that naive. Anybody can miss. You have graciously clarified the issues with a "charges only" approach. I hear you!

But at the same time, doesn't standing off with a scope and sticks go too far the other way, reducing the danger to virtually zero? I'm afraid I might feel a twinge of regret afterwards, and I say that being a former 300WM benchrest shooter and bowhunter. Perhaps there's some middle ground in there somewhere.

Thanks again. I greatly appreciate and respect your comments and knowledge and read it very closely.

- Ruark

Almost all DG is taken within 50 yards, either iron sights or a very low power scope, and people are starting to use red dot sights. Elephants is going to be within 20yards as you go for a brain shot most of the time. Lion is either on bait or spot/stalk but is again very close, leopard is almost always on bait but from close in a blind, and buffalo is generally spot/stalk and within 50yd but not too close as the last thing you want is 100 buffalo stampeding you and buffalo kill a lot of people each year. Dangerous game is pretty much never from far off, as you need to be accurate and have maximum bullet efficiency. DG is always very dangerous, wether their is a charge or not. Hippos charge a lot and when hunting them your looking for the dominant bull in the area, which means when you show up they don't run but start heading towards you. Its very dangerous to be between a hippo and the water. The actual croc hunt part isn't too bad as your generally relatively safe from the boat or 20yd+ on land. But the recovery is the dangerous part if the croc dies in the water and your PH/trackers have to get in the water to go retrieve it. Same if the hippo is shot in the water. As you often can't tell if they are 100% dead cause the water is so murky plus other hippos/crocs in the water.

 

[Grumulkin]

There are some places in Africa, Burkina Faso for instance, where "chase libre" safaris can be done. That means that you are on your own with some trackers and no PH or anyone else to back you up or judge your trophies for you. Of course their buffalo aren't really Cape Buffalo but I believe they can still be ill tempered.

One thing I've noticed on hunting shows is that VERY frequently with dangerous game, the client shoots and the PH does as well. Maybe there was an agreement between client and PH beforehand; I don't know. Sorry, but that just doesn't do it for me; I want to shoot my own stuff and I make no apologies for that. I would rather not go or hunt something besides dangerous game than have someone else do my shooting for me.

Also, what I've noticed in elephant hunting, the usual practice seems to be getting into very close range and taking a brain shot. At times a close shot is all one can have because of vegetation but that isn't always the case. Why always the brain shot where one has to be close and the chance of a charge is increased? An elephant would die perfectly well with a shoulder shot taken from a safer distance.

 

[Ruark]

One thing I've noticed on hunting shows is that VERY frequently with dangerous game, the client shoots and the PH does as well. Maybe there was an agreement between client and PH beforehand; I don't know. Sorry, but that just doesn't do it for me; I want to shoot my own stuff and I make no apologies for that. I would rather not go or hunt something besides dangerous game than have someone else do my shooting for me.

Same here. I've seen that on a lot of YouTube videos, with the client and the PH both blasting away at some animal. I watched one a couple of days ago with both firing EIGHT shots, point blank, at an elephant before the poor creature finally expired.

Also, what I've noticed in elephant hunting, the usual practice seems to be getting into very close range and taking a brain shot. At times a close shot is all one can have because of vegetation but that isn't always the case. Why always the brain shot where one has to be close and the chance of a charge is increased? An elephant would die perfectly well with a shoulder shot taken from a safer distance.

A brain shot is certainly more humane.

 

[Red Leg]

There are some places in Africa, Burkina Faso for instance, where "chase libre" safaris can be done. That means that you are on your own with some trackers and no PH or anyone else to back you up or judge your trophies for you. Of course their buffalo aren't really Cape Buffalo but I believe they can still be ill tempered.

One thing I've noticed on hunting shows is that VERY frequently with dangerous game, the client shoots and the PH does as well. Maybe there was an agreement between client and PH beforehand; I don't know. Sorry, but that just doesn't do it for me; I want to shoot my own stuff and I make no apologies for that. I would rather not go or hunt something besides dangerous game than have someone else do my shooting for me.

Also, what I've noticed in elephant hunting, the usual practice seems to be getting into very close range and taking a brain shot. At times a close shot is all one can have because of vegetation but that isn't always the case. Why always the brain shot where one has to be close and the chance of a charge is increased? An elephant would die perfectly well with a shoulder shot taken from a safer distance.

So did you "note" all this through actual experience or from TV? I have yet to have a PH back-up one of my shots. That said, I fully expect him to fire if he ever feels like a situation is about to get out of hand. While I am sure you have lots of hunting experience, the facts are that you and I know nothing about hunting dangerous game compared to these professionals. If you have hunted a lot, you have screwed up a shot at something - we all have. With a deer, it is either a long day or a lost animal. With a buff or an elephant that same screw-up can kill someone. I too have hunted a lot, and I have even hunted a little bit of DG. I know that the first time I do have a buff shake off that first round I want my PH putting in a back-up shot.

 

[Ruark]

Look at these guys... the client can't hit the side of a barn, throws cigarettes on the ground... they shot that elephant full of more holes than a slice of bread. I don't necessarily hold it against the PH; I realize they can't cherry-pick their clients. But I gotta admit, I winced when I watched this.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Don't paint everyone with the same brush. ( Especially from a Youtube video)

 

[Red Leg]

But what is your point Ruark? and what is the PH supposed to do in this instance? As I see what happened, the client just missed the brain on a frontal brain shot. The elephant fell forward rather than rear legs collapsing, PH fully recognizes another shot is needed, and does everything but beg the client to finish the animal. By the time the PH fires, he is dealing with a withdrawing animal, which if not stopped, will likely escape. I frankly would have expected him to anchor the animal on the ground rather than defer to the client as long as he did. And you are right, a pretty ugly taking of a fine game animal. But the only person at "fault" in this instance - if you can call it that - is the client. I have no doubt you will shoot perfectly on your first elephant or buffalo. But on the off and extremely remote chance you don't, I wouldn't begrudge your PH lending you a hand however many rounds it takes. Mine are always welcome to do that for me.

 

[Red Leg]

Don't paint everyone with the same brush. ( Especially from a Youtube video)

Exactly

 

[Wheels]

I skipped to the last 5 minutes of your video. The PH did his job well IMHO.

This video you supplied answers your question in your original post as to why PH's won't let a client DIY.

 

[Grumulkin]

So did you "note" all this through actual experience or from TV?

It was clearly stated it was from TV. If one is to consider an expensive safari, it's best to research it from various angles. From what I've seen, admittedly second hand, I would have to assume it's common practice for the PH's shot to immediately follow the clients. My conclusion is that I wouldn't want to do it that way.

A brain shot is certainly more humane

If that is the reason, why aren't we taking brain shots on everything?

 

[Red Leg]

It was clearly stated it was from TV. If one is to consider an expensive safari, it's best to research it from various angles. From what I've seen, admittedly second hand, I would have to assume it's common practice for the PH's shot to immediately follow the clients. My conclusion is that I wouldn't want to do it that way.



If that is the reason, why aren't we taking brain shots on everything?

Then I don't think you should ever go. A PH only fires at DG, in my experience, to protect the lives of his client and team or to prevent the loss of a wounded animal. And really, we are only talking about DG - normally, when hunting PG, your PH will only be carrying the sticks - not a rifle. It is a rare hunter, who has never hunted dangerous game, who is so certain of his icy cold marksmanship, to not want his PH to fulfill one of his basic responsibilities - particularly when other peoples lives are on the line. That frankly makes you dangerous. If you are already certain how you will behave the first time you confront DG, then you are either naïve or foolish. I had the privilege of serving in the Army for many years before I took my first safari. That included being an Airborne Ranger and having been in combat. No big deal other than I have lived weapons and know myself in a tight situation. And I was damned glad to have an experienced PH with the a double .470 at my side to follow up my first DG animal (cleanly lung shot leopard that still ran off into the bush for fifty yards).

I was beginning to think you might simply be a little better informed troll, but then again, you may simply be a fairly inexperienced, or perhaps unread, hunter who simply likes being confrontational through the anonymity of the internet. We don't get many of that type on this site. But I think you should absolutely follow your instincts, not go, and not "do it that way." I am not sure that I would want to share a camp with you.

 

[Grumulkin]

But I think you should absolutely follow your instincts, not go, and not "do it that way." I am not sure that I would want to share a camp with you.

That works for me. LOL.

 

[accipiter]

Standing on the ground staring down a rhino, elephant or cape buffalo is something that must be experienced. After you do that for the first time, you will understand why there are several guns beside you - it is a precarious situation.

As others mentioned, the only PH that would consider the idea of such a hunt is Mark Sullivan at www.nitroexpresssafaris.com, but he often takes the final shot for his clients.

Dangerous game hunting is not bungee jumping or skydiving. But I truly hope that you can make a trip to Africa and share the experience with us. There is a reason why first-time hunters go back so many times. I do not even have a desire to hunt locally because it simply does not compare to Africa.

 

[Ruark]

As the original poster in this thread, I'm pretty well done with this topic, and walking away from it feeling somewhat embarrassed at having asked what turned out to be a pretty dumb question. I'm sure there was a bit of eye-rolling out there... Just allow me to state that I asked the original question in all sincerity.

But that is how one learns, as I have. Thanks once more for your courtesy and patience. Let's move on.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Ruark,
We can move on, but there are no dumb questions here and certainly no reason for embarrassment! This is exactly what this forum is for. We are a bunch of gentleman on this forum, who discuss topics and help each other out. You NEED to understand, and I believe that I am speaking for most of the outfitters with DG experience here on Africahunting.com, that we are NOT here to shoot your animal. We will go as far as possible to allow you to finish off your own animal. I personally work on a 15yds "threshold", after which I will take action. Everything further than that, is my hunter's opportunity to stop his own charge.
Follow your dream of pursuing dangerous game. I guarantee you that you won't be disappointed.

 

[sestoppelman]

I appreciate all your input, and I apologize for taking your time. This is a question that's been on my mind for, actually, many years, but until I found this forum, I never had the opportunity to directly ask African PHs. The marvels of the internet, eh?!

I guess what I'm trying to do is re-create some of the scenarios I was fascinated with as a younger bloke, reading about J.A. Hunter or Karamojo Bell dropping charging beasts left and right until their gun barrels were red hot. I remember back in the late 50s, a wealthy local oilman went on some big safari, came back to town and showed movies of his trip in a local hotel. We went to see it. Remember, this was in the 50s; the films were grainy and of course in B&W, but they were very real. He took down those same three: elephant, lion and buff, all in charges, all close enough to fog your glasses. I was 8 or 9 years old at the time, and when it was over, it took me a while to put my eyes back in their sockets and start breathing again.

But those are all good points, e.g. about a wounded animal whipping around and running to a populated area and becoming a danger to the local citizenry. Of course, my knee-jerk reaction is something like, "awwww, yeah, but I wouldn't miss..." but I won't be that naive. Anybody can miss. You have graciously clarified the issues with a "charges only" approach. I hear you!

But at the same time, doesn't standing off with a scope and sticks go too far the other way, reducing the danger to virtually zero? I'm afraid I might feel a twinge of regret afterwards, and I say that being a former 300WM benchrest shooter and bowhunter. Perhaps there's some middle ground in there somewhere.

Thanks again. I greatly appreciate and respect your comments and knowledge and read it very closely.

- Ruark

Late to the show here I know, just now reading this thread. But I must say that whenever I see someone state as above, "doesn't standing off with a scope and sticks go too far,, reducing the danger to zero"?, the first thing that comes to mind is this is either someone who has never fired a shot at a game animal, or an anti hunter. Not saying Ruark is either of these, but..you have to ask. Why would we NOT want to reduce the danger to ourselves? Don't we do so in most aspects of our lives? We don't step in front of moving vehicles on purpose do we?

 

[BRICKBURN]

……………. You NEED to understand, … ……….., that we are NOT here to shoot your animal. We will go as far as possible to allow you to finish off your own animal. I personally work on a 15yds "threshold", after which I will take action. Everything further than that, is my hunter's opportunity to stop his own charge…………………...

Exactly. Safety first.

 

[TokkieM]

Ruark, buddy these guys have given you some very good advice, I would honestly take to hart (head) what info they shared from experiance. I dont proclaim to have hunted much DG, but what I can tell you is when the time comes to cowboy up and stop a animal you find out pretty quickly if you can stand and bang or if this is not for you. Right at that same moment you will also find out what it is to put your trust and faith into the guy standing side by side with you to keep you safe incase things go bad, maybe a rifle fails to fire or your gun jams, but from what I have seen, more hunters fall apart at that point than rifles do.

 

[siml]

Brickburn hit the nail on the head " safety first"!! Film footage is easy to manipulate, you usually only see the successful brain shots, not all the crappy ones, to me heart/lung is the safest on elephant. AND always put that insurance shot into the back of the head!!