Hot 45/70 loads?

[Bobpuckett]

Methinks Puckett may be celebrating a bit early this year!?!?!?! A .45-70 cannot drive a 350 gr bullet to 3200fps, just simply cannot be done. He is pulling our leg! Ha Ha Bob, good one!!:bighello:

:laughing: Ok maybe it was 2300 I'm getting old and the memory may not be that good. So what I'll do sence I've taken the next week off for deer hunting is see if I can find some of my old notes and try the loads with my new chorny this was a long time ago and I wasn't smart enough to not risk my life with some wild loads, had my first reloader and figured powder is powder lucky to still be alive. like I said before, start with the book and work your way up I have found that in most of my cases the book max is a minimum maximum for me as they have no idea what shape your rifle is in. but again as I say don't do as I do, do as I say, start with the book.:draught:

 

[Mike70560]

A good 45-70 thread can usually bring out the worse in me. Thankfully it was Christmas and I remained restrained.:ignore:

BTW I do not believe even a 460 Weatherby can reach 3200 FPS with a 350 grain bullet.

Merry Christmas and enjoy your week of deer hunting.

 

[Bobpuckett]

Mike with no doubt you are right I can't find any of my old notes (smart enough to throw them away so I wouldn't try something stupid like that again) I just remember they were out of range on any book that I read and I have loaded to many bullets and had to many numbers running through my head not get some of them mixed up also why I don't give the load data until I verify it first. My hunting load that I shoot in my 1874 using IMR 4198 is 52.4gr with a laser cast silver alloy bullets .459 average speed is 2183fps. This is a safe load for my rifle and still leave teeth in my head and will work on most game within the law :stirring: heck the 458 Win Mag loaded with IMR 4198 65gr and a 350gr sp only gets 2378 fps.

 

[sestoppelman]

Yeah Bob, about the best a .45-70 is gonna do with a 350gr, is probably 2300 or so (and only in a Ruger #1 or modern bolt gun, not a Sharps!), and thats over 4100 ft/lbs of energy! I dont think most of us are so adventurous that we want to even go that far! Your Sharps load seems plenty warm for that gun, good though they may be. The Sharps design was never meant to handle pressure like that. While the new made ones are made of much better steels than the originals for sure, its still pretty warm. :eyecrazy:

 

[buzz1858]

Not being a reloader or gunsmith, can you explain the above reference that even a modern sharps cannot handle the pressure?
It would seem to me that the relatively massive barrels and monoblock type action would be plenty strong?

 

[sestoppelman]

Look in any reloading manual and you wont find the Sharps replicas listed in the strongest action section. The rifle was designed to shoot black powder loads of less than 20k pressure. Not to say it wont handle more but it wasnt designed to do so. Any body trying to make a Ruger No.1 out of a Sharps is playing with fire. While the gun may not blow up or be obviously damaged by occasional hot loads, eventually it will loosen up to the point where excess headspace becomes a problem due to the battering it takes over time if loaded regularly with the hot stuff.

Just my opinion based on 45 years of reloading and research, however I am no gunsmith or metalurgist and opinions as they say 'may vary', and just like a-holes everyone has one! :happywave:

 

[buzz1858]

Gotcha....
While I have shot some of the commercial "hot" loads from mine, I certainly wouldn't want to loosen it up by exceeding it's specs.
After all, I DID buy a 45/70, not a Weatherby.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Bobpuckett]

Guys I beg to differ but I've shown you where my sharps 1874 shoots at 2183 fps and this is my normal load I have exceeded that by a good bit just get a little nerves doing it, I like keeping my right shoulder on the right side. a modern 45/70 falling block not trap door or lever action rifle can handle it. but you have to shoot what you feel compfy with, with me I keep mine at the 2200 fps level and my right shoulder is still on the right side.

 

[sestoppelman]

Well have at it Bob! Your load generates over 3700 ft/lbs of energy which is way more than the design was ever meant to shoot. I dont think that load is outrageous but its more than I am going to push my Sharps. Enjoy!!:rockon:

 

[BRICKBURN]

Yup, load em to the max. Nothing bad ever happens when you do that sort of thing.

 

[buzz1858]

Not in my Sharps - I paid too much, and I am used to the present arrangement of my appendages.

 

[buzz1858]

Okay folks, here's what I got from C. Sharps.
Make of it what you will...

"Buffalo Bore makes 45-70 loads to several different pressures. We
recommend using loads in the 28,000 to 30,000cup range which is about
everything you can buy off the shelf. Some of the "magnum" 45-70 loads are
loaded to 40,000cup, and are recommended for the #1 rugers, or bolt action
rifles. We do not recommend these in our rifles." CSA

 

[sestoppelman]

Thanks for asking them about it. Sounds about like what most of us figured.
Are you reading this BOB? :happywave:

 

[buzz1858]

I knew that the the "New" sharps are made with stronger materials.
Even within those parameters, the highest recommended loads aren't fun to shoot - they flat out hurt!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Looks more like a barrel obstruction than an overload. I don't see any damage to the breech or stock that would indicate an overload.
Bob

 

[M McDindi]

Buzz:

I've got a number of 45/70 and 450Marlin rifles. A #1, several H&Rs, several Marlins, several Siamese Mausers a Custom Ruger 77 in 450Marlin and custom Win 70 in 450M. Most of which have made multiple trips over and "blooded".

The normal "hunting load" for the 45/70 and 450Marlin versions in the Siamese Mausers, the Ruger and Win 70 is a 350gr TSX at chrono'd 2300fps and a 325gr Cutting Edge Bullet solid at just under 2400fps. The loads are just slightly compressed. I've recovered maybe 4-5 of the TSX and none of the CEB's in 20+trips and dozens of head of PG upto mountain zebra and eland.

In the H&R's and the Marlins, my favorite combination is the 425gr Cast Performance WFN /gas checks. In the 45/70's, those are loaded to 1950fps and in the 450Marlin, to 2150fps. Reason is the Marlin 1895 actions are a little different between the 45/70 and 450M variants that allow the 450M version to have a max pressure of 43k psi. Same with these, I've recovered only a couple of these.

I actually did the PH school in RSA using a Marlin 1895M in 450 Marlin. I used a 385gr Cast Performance at a reduced velocity of 1750fps because I knew I'd have to complete the simulated "charge" shooting exam and outside of an "automatic" rifle there is nothing faster at getting more than two rapid fire shots off than a lever gun. After I graduated the school, I stayed and hunted a few extra days. Even at that reduced velocity, I took a very nice nyala from about 135m and it passed thru the nyala broadside and completely thru the trunk of an 8" mopane tree 3m behind the nyala.

In my experience, the 45/70, 450Marlin cartridges loaded at upper medium velocity levels are more than adequate for PG out to 200m. In the "strong action" or "modern rifle" loading tables, there are combinations that can exceed the 4000ft lbs minimum of muzzle energy required for DG.

Regarding taking black power or even black powder substitute on aircraft, it is prohibited - even in loaded cartridges. The reason is BP is categorized as an "explosive" and modern smokeless powers are categorized as "accelerants". Will the airline "know" which you have in loaded cartridges or do the check - no. But, I have had security checkpoints do the little "swab" test on my ammo boxes and rifles and run the swab thru the little machine. I have no idea if it can tell the difference between traces BP and smokeless or not.

Black powder seems to be more controlled in the three countries I'm familiar with - Botswana, Namibia and RSA. BP can be purchased there but, you have to provide your 4457, passport and your hunting license to your PH in advance so he can arrange it before you arrive and you're limited in the quantity purchased.

A few years ago, my wife and I took two of my nephews to Namibia and we all used H&R's in 45/70 and had a good time. By all means, take your Sharps and litterally "have a blast".

 

[IvW]

Somebody needs a new chrony.......

 

[leslie hetrick]

i shot from the front to the rear, a complete pass thru with a hard cast 400 gr bullet at 1900 fps out of a ruger # 3 and far as i know the bullet is still flying thru the woods of pa.

 

[Whacker]

i shot from the front to the rear, a complete pass thru with a hard cast 400 gr bullet at 1900 fps out of a ruger # 3 and far as i know the bullet is still flying thru the woods of pa.

View attachment 379988View attachment 379989

Those hard cast get good penetration out of the 45-70. I load a 405 hard cast to 1950 and I have yet to recover one even on a through shot bear like your shot. They are impressive to say the least...however when whitetail hunting I use a 300 grain jhc Sierra loaded to 2250 FPS and if a deer is perfectly broadside and I shoot behind the shoulder it will make complete pass through but if it’s a quartering shot or much bone involved it’s usually under the skin on the other side. I have recovered a few of these which resulted in very nice mushrooms that did not exit.

 

[Whacker]

Those hard cast get good penetration out of the 45-70. I load a 405 hard cast to 1950 and I have yet to recover one even on a through shot bear like your shot. They are impressive to say the least...however when whitetail hunting I use a 300 grain jhc Sierra loaded to 2250 FPS and if a deer is perfectly broadside and I shoot behind the shoulder it will make complete pass through but if it’s a quartering shot or much bone involved it’s usually under the skin on the other side. I have recovered a few of these which resulted in very nice mushrooms that did not exit.

One of my deer from this year that was a quartering away shot. Was DRT resulting in a heart and double lung shot but the bullet did not exit leaving it just under the skin in the breast...also resulted in zero meat damage which is my main goal with these loads and they also shoot just under moa at 100yds which I think is very good for a lever action and also usually the furthest shot I have in the areas I carry this rifle. It is by far my favorite round for the thickets hunting whitetail.