Hornady ELD-X

[Inline6]

I personally think without muddling the waters to bad.

Spin drift and the coriolis effect do not play a significant role in the development of small arms. On spin drift, I do not know about JBM I have not used it. On applied ballistics you can toggle it on/off. Some branches of the US military teach it some have done away with it. On the coriolis effect the bullet will be most effected by the direction you shoot. Due N or S having the biggest shift. SD/CE is most certainly something to take into account on artillery shells. I am speaking hear say as I have not taken the time or effort to learn how to calculate it. My understanding from my instructor was an artillery shells, it would make a 5 foot difference in 25 miles shot (if you call it that).

That said I would definitely look into that program Bruce and see if it possible has a function to turn on/ off SD/CE. That would allow you to see if it changes the outputs of the program.

It's crazy to me to see how much shooting has changed. Technology in bullets, scopes software, bc on bullets tester by radar.In just the last few years, the one thing that some people have the hardest time wrapping their mind around that I have found. Believe the bullet, all the technology we have can get us close but the bullet is the truth.

Maybe I am looking at it in a skewed way?

 

[bruce moulds]

i personally do not worry about coriolus because as you say it is probably not too much of a deal, but also it just gets too hard.
spindrift on the other hand can be quite significant.
the figures i just gave were with spindrift turned on, and give a good indication of differences.
spindrift turned off would the average of the left and right wind deflection figures which are for 1 mph wind, 0.55 moa, and for 10 mph 5.55 moa.
hence the difference between my figures and some others presented here.
i dread to think what it would be at a mile, and have no desire to even find out.
my fclass rifle is zeroed about 1 calibre to the left at 100 yds, and will put the bullet a little to the right at 1000, in an attempt to average the whole thing out.
however having a good deadwind zero at the range you are shooting at is good in terms of winding wind on the sight in a meaningful way.
at 1000 yds, the difference between actual deflection and deflection not allowing for spindrift in a 10 mph wind is roughly 5".
a bullet on the right or left side of the group could the be 10" right or left, depending on wind direction.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

as an aside, if you go from the southern to the northern hemisphere coriolus and some other force that i forget the name of DO seriously need to be taken into account as range increases.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

here is the question.
given a rh twist barrel, you have to add spindrift (drift) to deflection, in a wind from the left.
and subtract drift from deflection in a right hand wind.
at what distance does that become significant.?
of course in a right wind, drift will be your friend if you do not take it into account, as it will cancel out some of the deflection. the other way will be the opposite.
i am here to tell you that setting up a deadwind zero at 1000 yds is NOT a simple task.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

another consideration.
the target goes where the mirage goes, and sometimes you cannot see mirage as in cloudy conditions.
in a head or tal wind, the target will appear to the shooter to be higher than it is.
by how much is pretty much a guessing game, but it can be 1, or in extreme case 2 moa higher than where it really is.
as the wind swing around to full value it goes downward and away from wind direction, until it is left or right of where it is.
thus whatever the correct adjust on the sight is for wind will need a little more added to it in a full value wind.
again, how much?
bruce.

 

[Inline6]

another consideration.
the target goes where the mirage goes, and sometimes you cannot see mirage as in cloudy conditions.
in a head or tal wind, the target will appear to the shooter to be higher than it is.
by how much is pretty much a guessing game, but it can be 1, or in extreme case 2 moa higher than where it really is.
as the wind swing around to full value it goes downward and away from wind direction, until it is left or right of where it is.
thus whatever the correct adjust on the sight is for wind will need a little more added to it in a full value wind.
again, how much?
bruce.

We are in agreement on the wind for sure. I was and am curious as to the effect of shooting on the other side of the equator.

I am definitely not saying my thoughts are correct. They are observations on my end.
I am also not saying you are wrong. We both make our systems work.

I am curious to know if you have tested your scopes tracking?

The discipline some compete in requires the adjustment of the turret for just about every stage. The only sighters you get is the bullets impact. That could be the steel target or the dirt berm. Make your adjustment and fire again (usually stages are 10-12 rounds and you have 90 - 120 seconds). In that game testing your scopes tracking is a critical part of the equation.

Having read several reports and talking to several scope builders. It seems not scope manufacturers are perfect. Then add in people's ability to mount the scope correctly. Tolerance start stacking.

Would you be apposed to testing the tracking of your scope if you have not already?

It is not difficult, set up a target at 100 yards. You must have a perfect vertical line draw (plumb bob works best but you can get away with a good level) poster board works well for the target. If the math is correct you would need about 25 moa of space above your 100 yard zero. You would then fire one round towards the bottom of the line. Dial your 1000 yard setting put your crosshairs on the target you just shot and shoot again. You can then measure against the line both vertical and horizontal to confirm that setup is tracking true.

 

[bruce moulds]

i used to do box shooting with 3 shot groups doing 4 groups, then a 5th back on the original target.
however nightforce is in my capital city, adelaide, and i can take my scope there to be tested.
if it is working ok i do not worry now.
i did have a doubt once, and sent the scope to nightforce, and they sent it back saying there was nothing wrong.
it turned out that the new barrel i had just wasn't up to hoped for standard.
yes mounting a scope correctly is a must, a bit like bedding an action.
it must be stress free.
i suppose in fclass we have a slight advantage with adjustments being less than accurate, as we have sighters, but each adjustment must be the same as any other, and the same every day of the year.
notebooks are our friend if we choose to use them.
hunting you just have to be able to wind to the correct setting for the distance and be able to rely on that.
given the variables beyond control, it is doubly important to nail down those you can control.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

here is a good way to come to grips with spindrift.
you need to have spindrift switched on on you calculator.
then run a calculation out to the max range you shoot with a wind speed of zero.
the windage figures that show up are pure spindrift.
jbm shows it in both inches and moa, which tells you how much to put on the scope to allow for it, and how far off point of aim you bullet will be in inches if you don't.
then you add to or subtract that from the windcall according to direction of twist.
this was simplified shooting long range iron sighted rifles by having a windage foresight and putting the spindrift on that.
could there be enough demand for a scope mount that does the same?
bruce.

 

[Inline6]

Thoughts on this are I'm not sure we have the technology to read the wind at all locations to confirm or deny how much it truly moves (with a Trijicon Ventus we are getting closer) Maybe in a testing tunnel? That could be used to help determine(SD)? Also a confession, the windage knob on my scope is only adjusted to zero. Once that is set, it no longer is touched. Holding wind (IMHO) works best for field style shooting when speed of a follow up makes a difference.

If we can get a kestrel in your hands for you to play with. Not sure if you have played with one or not? It operates on real time data, wind,the direction of it, will account for elevation changes in the bullet based on wind angle to the bullet. It's basically a weather station with something like JBM (the program is applied ballistics) reading the data and giving you the out puts in real time.

To answer your question on mounts the owner of Near mounts did just that. He built it for the guys shooting ELR. It was in his ALFA mount line. People did not like the mount touching the bottom of the scope erector housing. I ran his ALFA mount for over 10 years (still use it) never had an issue with it (mine did not have the built in cant). That is a nice feature, mounting a scope was never so easy.

We definitely live in a shooting era in that technology is going to play a huge role in long distance first round hits.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

i used to do box shooting with 3 shot groups doing 4 groups, then a 5th back on the original target.
however nightforce is in my capital city, adelaide, and i can take my scope there to be tested.
if it is working ok i do not worry now.
i did have a doubt once, and sent the scope to nightforce, and they sent it back saying there was nothing wrong.
it turned out that the new barrel i had just wasn't up to hoped for standard.
yes mounting a scope correctly is a must, a bit like bedding an action.
it must be stress free.
i suppose in fclass we have a slight advantage with adjustments being less than accurate, as we have sighters, but each adjustment must be the same as any other, and the same every day of the year.
notebooks are our friend if we choose to use them.
hunting you just have to be able to wind to the correct setting for the distance and be able to rely on that.
given the variables beyond control, it is doubly important to nail down those you can control.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
Mate all this long range stuff is doing my head in with all the calculations. By the time I did all that fluffing around the animal would have died of old age. Congratulations to those that have the ability to work it out.
Personally as you know I don't exert any part of my body especially my brain I like to put reticle on animal, pull trigger and go pick animal up. Simples.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

Thoughts on this are I'm not sure we have the technology to read the wind at all locations to confirm or deny how much it truly moves (with a Trijicon Ventus we are getting closer) Maybe in a testing tunnel? That could be used to help determine(SD)? Also a confession, the windage knob on my scope is only adjusted to zero. Once that is set, it no longer is touched. Holding wind (IMHO) works best for field style shooting when speed of a follow up makes a difference.

If we can get a kestrel in your hands for you to play with. Not sure if you have played with one or not? It operates on real time data, wind,the direction of it, will account for elevation changes in the bullet based on wind angle to the bullet. It's basically a weather station with something like JBM (the program is applied ballistics) reading the data and giving you the out puts in real time.

To answer your question on mounts the owner of Near mounts did just that. He built it for the guys shooting ELR. It was in his ALFA mount line. People did not like the mount touching the bottom of the scope erector housing. I ran his ALFA mount for over 10 years (still use it) never had an issue with it (mine did not have the built in cant). That is a nice feature, mounting a scope was never so easy.

We definitely live in a shooting era in that technology is going to play a huge role in long distance first round hits.

yes you can read the wind with a kestrel at the shooting point, high, low, and average.
but you cant tell what is going on down range.
on the range flags often point in different directions and lift to different angles.
and they cannot tell you what to do with mirage.
for long range i prefer to wind for the wind and aim dead on, but the ranges i shoot max on game the wind stays on zero.
i will not shoot if i have to aim off hair.
if the kestrel takes into account such things as atmospheric pressure etc, it will give more meaningful comeups, and will calculate allowance for spindrift as well.
how far do some of us want to go with technology?
in a way it robs some of satisfaction from the job, but that is a personal thing.
yes wind direction will alter an elevation requirement, both from spin, and drag depending on head or tail wind direction and strength.
and then you need a spirit level to keep the rig straight up and down.
bruce.

 

[Inline6]

Understand what you mean about the kestrel, that is what hurts a lot of new shooters. Reading the wind where you are not down range. It's a good tool to use to help one get a feel for how fast or slow the wind actually is.

In field matches that we shoot, you have to shoot through the conditions at the time. It does throw a different aspect in to the mix when you are not shooting on a square range at a constant distance.

Understand your thoughts on shooting at animals with regards to wind. Yes a kestrel does take into account all atmospheric conditions. Mine is set up to read DA (density alatuide) and calculate off that.

Technology.... I don't have the experience reading wind that you have. Personally I have spent a great deal of time learning to read it. Spendings hours at f class matches (not competing) watching vapor trails and mirage. Learning what little changes in mirage effect the bullet. With the Trijicon Ventus, it's not cheap 8k usd what do you get for that price tag. It reads wind at 6 different locations out to 500 yards utilizing doppler lidar. I had a very lengthy conversation with the lead of the project. This is just the beginning it will only get better with time. Alot of people are upset by this technology and feel it will allow those with deep pockets to gain an advantage. Personally the wind changes to fast to often, it will give an advantage no question. You still have to pull the trigger and do what is required of the shooter to make the connection. The best will always rise to the top.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Understand what you mean about the kestrel, that is what hurts a lot of new shooters. Reading the wind where you are not down range. It's a good tool to use to help one get a feel for how fast or slow the wind actually is.

In field matches that we shoot, you have to shoot through the conditions at the time. It does throw a different aspect in to the mix when you are not shooting on a square range at a constant distance.

Understand your thoughts on shooting at animals with regards to wind. Yes a kestrel does take into account all atmospheric conditions. Mine is set up to read DA (density alatuide) and calculate off that.

Technology.... I don't have the experience reading wind that you have. Personally I have spent a great deal of time learning to read it. Spendings hours at f class matches (not competing) watching vapor trails and mirage. Learning what little changes in mirage effect the bullet. With the Trijicon Ventus, it's not cheap 8k usd what do you get for that price tag. It reads wind at 6 different locations out to 500 yards utilizing doppler lidar. I had a very lengthy conversation with the lead of the project. This is just the beginning it will only get better with time. Alot of people are upset by this technology and feel it will allow those with deep pockets to gain an advantage. Personally the wind changes to fast to often, it will give an advantage no question. You still have to pull the trigger and do what is required of the shooter to make the connection. The best will always rise to the top.

@Inline 6
I ain't that technical. If'n the area I hunt in has trees or grass I just look at the way they bend to try and read the wind speed. If'n the grass is bent to much it's to windy for me to shoot past 200 yards I stay in camp.
My best shot in the wind that can be verified is at a big buck kangaroo at a lasered 400 plus yards. The shots were taken off a benchrest in camp. The rifle was my son's 25 using 117grain SSTs at 3,000 fps.
The first shot holding the right elevation for the range blew the bullet 6 feet to the right. Using a bit of Kentucky windage and a lot of good luck the next shot drilled him centre chest.
They were the only 2 shots we fired that day. I think my second shot was more ass than class but it worked. If I had missed there wouldn't have been a 3rd shot
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

nothing like having a sighter.
bruce.

 

[Inline6]

@Inline 6
I ain't that technical. If'n the area I hunt in has trees or grass I just look at the way they bend to try and read the wind speed. If'n the grass is bent to much it's to windy for me to shoot past 200 yards I stay in camp.
My best shot in the wind that can be verified is at a big buck kangaroo at a lasered 400 plus yards. The shots were taken off a benchrest in camp. The rifle was my son's 25 using 117grain SSTs at 3,000 fps.
The first shot holding the right elevation for the range blew the bullet 6 feet to the right. Using a bit of Kentucky windage and a lot of good luck the next shot drilled him centre chest.
They were the only 2 shots we fired that day. I think my second shot was more ass than class but it worked. If I had missed there wouldn't have been a 3rd shot
Bob

Good shooting!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

nothing like having a sighter.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
Sighters are for target shooting mate.
I gave him a warning shot that if he didn't move I would shoot again.
Bob

 

[sawbones74]

I have used 230gr ELDX out of a 338 Win Mag on several plains games species including Eland, Zebra and Kudu. All have been one shot kills with the exception of the zebra that took two. Highly pleased and would use with confidence in Africa.
At home in the States I have taken Whitetail and a midsized bull Elk with a 143 gr ELDX from a 6.5 PRC. All clean kills. The Elk was shot through the near shoulder at 250 yds, the bullet passed through the shoulder and lodged in the car shoulder breaking both shoulders.

 

[countrykang8]

I went to Namibia in June 2023 with my Bergara B14 in 300 PRC. I shot factory 212 ELDX and it killed very well.

 

[sgt_zim]

I personally think without muddling the waters to bad.

Spin drift and the coriolis effect do not play a significant role in the development of small arms. On spin drift, I do not know about JBM I have not used it. On applied ballistics you can toggle it on/off. Some branches of the US military teach it some have done away with it. On the coriolis effect the bullet will be most effected by the direction you shoot. Due N or S having the biggest shift. SD/CE is most certainly something to take into account on artillery shells. I am speaking hear say as I have not taken the time or effort to learn how to calculate it. My understanding from my instructor was an artillery shells, it would make a 5 foot difference in 25 miles shot (if you call it that).

That said I would definitely look into that program Bruce and see if it possible has a function to turn on/ off SD/CE. That would allow you to see if it changes the outputs of the program.

It's crazy to me to see how much shooting has changed. Technology in bullets, scopes software, bc on bullets tester by radar.In just the last few years, the one thing that some people have the hardest time wrapping their mind around that I have found. Believe the bullet, all the technology we have can get us close but the bullet is the truth.

Maybe I am looking at it in a skewed way?

There is a non-trivial effect of Coriolis firing E/W. Firing West against the earth's rotation, target is rising with respect to the flight path of the bullet, so unaccounted for, shots will be low. Firing due east, the target is falling away, so shots will tend to be high.

Coriolis has zero practical effect at distances nearer than about 800 yards - it just isn't worth calculating for. If your name were Rob Furlong or Craig Harrison, it might be important. For us hunters, it just isn't worth giving any thought to.

 

[mark-hunter]

Honady quotes it at 2850. I have not measured it. The frontal was at a slight angle. The bullet entered the chest and exited the flank past the last rib. The range, as I remember, was around 150 yards on that one.

I am considering new ammo for my roe deer hunting in the future. Up till now I was using nosler ballistic tip 180 grains in 30-06.

Red Leg, do you think ELD-x will be effective on roe deer?

roe deer is smallish soft skin animal, basically question is will it properly expand on impact and create shok?
You have hunted them, so I think you are perfect person to ask,