High end bolt vs low end double

[Sideshow]

Please have a look at this..

View attachment 715268

Lets say you hunt elephant or buffalo in dense bush..look at the response time.. Will you have the time to cycle that bolt rifle..? I would choose a large bore anytime over any boltrifle..my 2 cents..

Love the chart but you’re missing one! How fast a human can run…….backwards

 

[Muskox]

I'd rather have more hunts going on, than spend it on guns.

$1500 Ruger African or Winchester M70 versus and another hunt versus a $15,000 rifle every time.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Please have a look at this..

View attachment 715268

Lets say you hunt elephant or buffalo in dense bush..look at the response time.. Will you have the time to cycle that bolt rifle..? I would choose a large bore anytime over any boltrifle..my 2 cents..

Yes. But if you already put two barrels into the bull (as was the case in the above cited video) and it's still coming at 20 meters, you've got a chance with a bolt rifle to maybe dodge the horns long enough to cycle a third round. Reloading a broke open flopping double rifle while running for your life is very challenging, as the video demonstrates.

 

[rookhawk]

I consider a used dakota or a new parkwest dangerous game bolt gun to be VERY good. Same for a Rigby. All of those can be found in the used-to-new range from $8000 up to $18000.

Comparing quality, I do not find the quality of a double rifle made by Sabatti, Rizzini, Searcy, Merkel, to be in a satisfactory quality camp. I have seen some Chapuis that made the cut, some that did not as far as quality. The aforementioned doubles in large bore calibers used to new range from $6500-$20,000. Not great.

Heyms cost more as doubles, but I consider them wholly acceptable for quality, albeit at a price that is the $20k-$40k+ price range used/new.

For most people's dollars and cents, its really hard to beat a used Dakota bolt gun.

 

[mdwest]

I'd rather have more hunts going on, than spend it on guns.

$1500 Ruger African or Winchester M70 versus and another hunt versus a $15,000 rifle every time.

For me personally, I agree...

That said, money is a relative term... The difference in purchasing a $15K rifle vs a $15K hunt matters to me... I really shouldnt do both in a single calendar year even if I can.. while it wouldnt put me in the poor house, $30K is a substantial amount of money to me, and to your point, there are other things I'd rather do with the money..

There are a pretty substantial number of people that hunt with doubles and/or other fine rifles that are well heeled enough that $30K is really no more than pocket change to them.. they can afford a new double annually if thats what they choose to do, and it will have zero impact on their ability to go hunt a couple of elephants in the same year and trade in their bugatti for a newer model if thats what they choose to do...

People that hunt internationally amazingly represent a really wide swath of society and socio economic levels.. Ive shared camp in Africa with guys that thought bringing in $60K was a really good year.. and at the same time have shared camp with guys that will make more next month than I will all of next year.. To the $60K guy a $1500 new (to him) winchester with a mid level scope, and 3+ years of savings to do his first DG hunt might still be a stretch... where there are other guys that can wake up tomorrow and just decide "Im bored.. I think I'll go to Tanzania next month and hammer as many buffalo as I can find over a 2 week period of time"...

but ultimately both will be DG hunters once everything is said and done..

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

i do love the look of rifles, bolt and doubles included, especially on a nice piece of wood
but its a bolt action...all day long...for me

 

[analog_peninsula]

It’s worth pointing out that even the idols of hunting, the old professional ivory hunters, were divided on the subject. We are no more likely to reach a universal conclusion than they did.

 

[rookhawk]

It’s worth pointing out that even the idols of hunting, the old professional ivory hunters, were divided on the subject. We are no more likely to reach a universal conclusion than they did.

Many of the greats used bolt guns because they were cheaper and easier to service. A double rifle requires a London gunsmith every 1000 days of field use. Some of these fellows would be in the bush for years at a time where a cheap bolt gun might be more inclined to operate than a very abused and misused double rifle.

 

[mdwest]

Many of the greats used bolt guns because they were cheaper and easier to surface. A double rifle requires a London gunsmith every 1000 days of field use. Some of these fellows would be in the bush for years at a time where a cheap bolt gun might be more inclined to operate than a very abused and misused double rifle.

I hadnt thought about it from that perspective.. but I would imagine that is absolutely correct..

doubles made/make a whole lot of sense from a security/safety perspective when dealing with DG... but... they are also precision instruments that cant effectively be fixed in the field if something goes wrong.. where on a bolt gun many failures can be corrected at the user level by simply swapping out a part or a spring..

were I a turn of the 20th century professional ivory hunter, I would keep a spare firing pin, spare bolt shroud, spare firing pin spring, spare safety, a spare extractor, a spare ejector, and a few spare pins and screws on me.. and would probably be ok to stay afield as long as I had ammo available to do so..

Or just have 2 bolt guns on the rack.. if needed you could easily cannibalize one for parts to support the other (assuming theyre both M98's) as needed... other than the bolt / barrel fit, theres little on an M98 that isnt just a simple parts swap.. even the bolt shroud which can be a bugger to properly fit on different guns is easy enough to modify/manipulate with simple tools if necessary..

 

[BJH65]

Please have a look at this..

View attachment 715268

Lets say you hunt elephant or buffalo in dense bush..look at the response time.. Will you have the time to cycle that bolt rifle..? I would choose a large bore anytime over any boltrifle..my 2 cents..

Very informative, thanks. Honestly, I look at the totality of everything. More often than not, if a DG animal is charging at close range, the hunter has made a bad first shot and created this situation. So the same hunter who has made a mess of the situation can now rely upon their skill, cool and calmness during a charge with the quicker second shot of their double rifle?

What’s interesting is informal conversations I’ve had with PH’s off the record, because I’m curious guy, is when a client makes a bad first shot on a buffalo, it’s seems the hunter rarely distinguishes themselves afterwards and the PH has to clean up the mess. PH’s are in the business of selling hunts and providing a great adventure, not badmouthing clients who have failed to do their job.

Perhaps also of extreme importance is to practice and be sure of your first shot, be very competent in your manual of arms having practiced rapid reloading and placing a second shot very quickly, also employing sound tactics and using our human brain to obtain every tactical advantage on a follow up. I think practice, competency and tactics trumps one’s chosen equipment as long as the equipment is reliable. However, a good double in the hands of a PH for all the reasons J.A. Hunter mentioned in his book Hunter is certainly appropriate.

I’m a bolt action man through and through, with that said, I would love to have a Heym double in 470 Nitro Express, but instead I prefer to go on an upcoming elephant and buffalo hunt with my custom Brno ZKK-602 458 Lott worth 1/5th of the Heym double.

 

[Tanks]

What's funny is that majority of the guys knocking down double rifles have not fired one, let alone hunted with one. In regard to cost, how much is your life worth?

In the argument of for being "sure of that shot". In case of a charge as seen as the video I posted above one does not have the advantage of taking their time, so in case of a near miss on the brain a fast second shot can save the day (again as seen on the video I posted).

 

[BJH65]

What's funny is that majority of the guys knocking down double rifles have not fired one, let alone hunted with one. In regard to cost, how much is your life worth?

In the argument of for being "sure of that shot". In case of a charge as seen as the video I posted above one does not have the advantage of taking their time, so in case of a near miss on the brain a fast second shot can save the day (again as seen on the video I posted).

Thanks for posting your videos. That was a difficult angle brain shot. The impact of your first 500 nitro express clearly dropped and stunned that bull giving you enough time for a second shot. From watching your video there was plenty of time for a follow up shot with a bolt rifle in a 458 Lott. I’m not knocking a fine double rifle, love to have one, but prefer to hunt instead.

 

[Tanks]

I wasn't talking about my videos, but the CMS elephant charge video where Mike dropped the elphant while Buzz was still cycling his rifle.

 

[BJH65]

I wasn't talking about my videos, but the CMS elephant charge video where Mike dropped the elphant while Buzz was still cycling his rifle.

Oh gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It's just as easy to mess up the second shot as it was to mess up the first shot which resulted in the charge. Actually, given the added stress of trying to clean up the mess while the animal is on its way to kill the shooter, I would safely estimate it's a LOT easier to miss the second shot. Then what? Trying to reload a break open gun on the run. How's that gonna work?

The idea of hunting dangerous game with a PH or guide is to employ the "platoon effect" in the event of a combat situation. The team protects each other firing in volley. In theory the client takes the first shot. If the animal charges, the PH should be ready to followup immediately. And if his shot doesn't stop the animal, then the client should by then be ready to fire again. Or an additional PH or client. However, I have seen many videos of either or both client and PH haphazardly firing both barrels so fast that followup shots were badly placed or missed altogether.

We are drifting to the same old worn out topic of bolt vs Elmer Fudd double gun. To return to the original theme, I don't see much attraction for either high end bolt or low end double, but certainly, if I was prone to excess, I would choose the former because it is more utilitarian and, in my view, the safer choice. I choose to drive a 2004 Envoy rather than a new Corvette convertible. Both will get me from point A to point B but in the event I'm met by a charging Jeep that crosses the centerline, the former probably has a better chance of keeping me alive. For sure, no one will turn their head watching me drive by but how important is that? And the Envoy has the added advantage of cargo space for my dogs ... and being able to egress without employing a shoehorn. . It's all about what turns your crank and I appreciate those who admit whim or nostalgia are the reasons for their choice. Those who try to argue even a cheap double rifle is the safer choice ... sorry, I'm not buying it (in reality or metaphorically).

 

[rookhawk]

It's just as easy to mess up the second shot as it was to mess up the first shot which resulted in the charge. Actually, given the added stress of trying to clean up the mess while the animal is on its way to kill the shooter, I would safely estimate it's a LOT easier to miss the second shot. Then what? Trying to reload a break open gun on the run. How's that gonna work?

The idea of hunting dangerous game with a PH or guide is to employ the "platoon effect" in the event of a combat situation. The team protects each other firing in volley. In theory the client takes the first shot. If the animal charges, the PH should be ready to followup immediately. And if his shot doesn't stop the animal, then the client should by then be ready to fire again. Or an additional PH or client. However, I have seen many videos of either or both client and PH haphazardly firing both barrels so fast that followup shots were badly placed or missed altogether.

We are drifting to the same old worn out topic of bolt vs Elmer Fudd double gun. To return to the original theme, I don't see much attraction for either high end bolt or low end double, but certainly, if I was prone to excess, I would choose the former because it is more utilitarian and, in my view, the safer choice. I choose to drive a 2004 Envoy rather than a new Corvette convertible. Both will get me from point A to point B but in the event I'm met by a charging Jeep that crosses the centerline, the former probably has a better chance of keeping me alive. For sure, no one will turn their head watching me drive by but how important is that? And the Envoy has the added advantage of cargo space for my dogs and being able to egress without employing a shoehorn. . It's all about what turns your crank and I appreciate those who admit whim or nostalgia are the reasons for their choice. Those who try to argue an ultra expensive double rifle is the safer choice ... sorry. I'm not buying that.

There are a few big advantages to a double rifle versus a magazine rifle if we're talking specifically about stopping a charge.

1.) Double rifles are heavier than magazine rifles, thus an equal power/energy/velocity round leaving a double rifle is going to have less muzzle rise and a faster recovery for the second shot than a magazine rifle.

2.) Obviously the speed of a second shot with a double rifle is much faster than a magazine rifle.

3.) If a bolt action gun suffers a critical mechanical failure, 100% of your gun is broken. A double rifle has redundancy of barrels, triggers, sears, hammers, springs, ejectors, etc. It is a more resilient technology.

4.) Dangerous game hunting rarely is an onslaught of rapid fire. Usually, you put a shot into the animal and it runs off wounded (hopefully lethally). You then go to retrieve the animal and engage in the potential for a charge. The double rifle gives you two instant shots, a reload, and then you try to recover the animal ready with two rounds to stop a charge. A magazine rifle will never get off 3-4 shots on the initial firing, two at the very most. A magazine rifle will never get off more than 1 shot on a subsequent charge, whereas the double rifle is likely to get off two.


As you read the points above, you'll realize that the double rifle is the superior stopping rifle and greatly diminishes risks. On the other hand, it is a costly, specialty tool. If you're not buying an exceptional double rifle you're probably not getting the essential benefits of points 1-4 above. (e.g. correct weight, ejectors, correct trigger to get off two instant and accurate shots, double triggers for redundancy, etc.)

 

[Rare Breed]

Here is an opinion from a country boy in Georgia whose most expensive gun purchase to date was the Beretta over and under shotgun I bought for my wife. While I would love to have a Rigby Big Game rifle or other high end bolt action, if this poor country boy can ever afford a rifle over $10,000 it will be a double rifle. I know it is not the most practical thing to buy by far, but I have dreamed of owning a double rifle since I was a kid.

Please do not let anyone on our great forum sway you from buying a good used DR a few in Chapuis, Merkle and a few others for a $10,000 price. While I respect people’s opinion I have owned 8 DRs only one new a Chapuis 450-400 NE for $13,000. Obviously my two Rigbys cost me a pretty penny but the others that served me well could fit your budget. As I have mentioned before any DR I buy goes straight to JJ Perodeau who shoots them, takes them completely apart and mechanically makes them perfect. You need to budget between $1-$3,000 for this on top of the used DR cost. To me buying a DR versus a nice bolt action makes no sense to me given you are comparing apples to pumpkins. If you can only afford one rifle most NA hunters already have a deer rifle that will easily take any PG in Africa easily. I would therefore buy a DR given most hunters aspire to at least take a buffalo versus my quest for the big 5 with only my leopard missing. just my POV

 

[Tanks]

I'd rather have more hunts going on, than spend it on guns.

$1500 Ruger African or Winchester M70 versus and another hunt versus a $15,000 rifle every time.

If you are doing $15K hunts, then you are not hunting in RSA game farms mostly and do not really need a double for sure. Free range DG hunts, the cost of the rifle is not a big factor, especially if you use the rifle on multiple hunts. On my Heym 88B double per hunt cost of it is less than a charter flight at this point.

 

[steve white]

We are all giving our opinions, which excepting a very few of us, represent relative inexperience compared to PH's and former professional elephant hunters. The ratio of income to price of reliable double has probably been fairly constant if adjusted for inflation. IF THE PROFESSIONAL DG hunter chose a double, it is probably because at one time or another he experienced the kind of close call that made the outlay worth it, or just began to insure against the odds that something unsavory was due to happen to him.
We are never on a hunt so sanitized that those kinds of considerations are wasted on US. I will take their hard earned advice if I can afford it.
I would not have sold my only double in order to finance a safari IF: 1. I realized how rare it is for one to shoot as accurately as that one did, and 2. I realized how expensive they would one day become.

 

[Hedge774]

Excellent discussion! It does make me smile and laugh at myself though. I spent $2000 on my 375 Ruger African and Leupold set up, and I felt like "Big Daddy Fat Pockets" for a month. Still do, as a matter of fact.