Hierarchy Of Double Rifles - Where does the Verney-Carron Fit In?

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

I'm curious about the various Sabatti comments; could someone with actual knowledge of Sabatti doubles care to explain what the problem(s) are with these rifles?

*forends not going on* (not friends not going on)

 

[Altitude sickness]

I think he meant to ask you for examples. Not your bonafides.

 

[rookhawk]

I'm curious about the various Sabatti comments; could someone with actual knowledge of Sabatti doubles care to explain what the problem(s) are with these rifles?

Many.

First, they are made by a cut-rate Italian shotgun manufacturer so they aren't qualified.

Being unqualified, they didn't know the first thing about double rifles so it came as no surprise they would not regulate and hit the broadside of a barn.

Being that they are junk and they have no pride in manufacture, a bunch of them that would not regulate, they attempted to regulate by using a dremel on the crowns thinking they could yaw the bullets into minute of trashcan lid by hacksaw gunsmithing.

Then it comes to the fake engraving, the disgusting aluminum scope mount systems, the fake/enhanced wood stocks, the polyurethane finish, and that most of them are built on basic shotgun actions rather than purpose-built rifle actions.

I think I paid $2600 new for mine fifteen years ago. I hand selected it out of about 40 choices, finding one that regulated well from the factory. It was an unremarkable $2600 gun and I sold it perfectly functional. I just don't enjoy owning low quality items and it didn't exude pride of craftsmanship, it exuded cheap double rifle for a guy that has no business owning a double rifle. (that was me at the time)

 

[50Gunner]

Daniel Carey, beautiful rifle you have there too Sir, pretty much a .com dummy retired and just hanging out at the farm in Oklahoma, you can PM me a cell number and I'd be glad to send you some pics, you can post em up here if you wish or look them over for yourself.

 

[Rafiki]

First, they are made by a cut-rate Italian shotgun manufacturer so they aren't qualified.

Being unqualified, they didn't know the first thing about double rifles so it came as no surprise they would not regulate and hit the broadside of a barn.

I've heard this from multiple sources. I know that they are shipped with the target from the final regulation, or at least they used to have that included. Are you saying that the target is not to be trusted?

Being that they are junk and they have no pride in manufacture, a bunch of them that would not regulate, they attempted to regulate by using a dremel on the crowns thinking they could yaw the bullets into minute of trashcan lid by hacksaw gunsmithing.

I've also heard this one, the Dremel thing. That's really hard to imagine.

Then it comes to the fake engraving,

Are these Laser engraved? It doesn't look like it but I can't really tell what "technique" they use because it doesn't look "sharp" as you would expect with hand or even Laser engraving.

the disgusting aluminum scope mount systems,

Huh? What's aluminum, certainly not the rib.

the fake/enhanced wood stocks, the polyurethane finish,

The only one that I have ever handled was at Cabela's many years ago when they decided to sell them. At that time the wood was Turkish Walnut and quite beautiful. Yes it had a gloss finish, probably polyurethane, Browning did/does the same on at least some of their rifles. Like you I do not like that finish or look so I usually strip it off and put an oil finish on those rifles.

and that most of them are built on basic shotgun actions rather than purpose-built rifle actions.

Does this include the Safari Big Five?

Safari Big Five Express rifle (Safari Big Five)

Sabatti Safari Big Five big game hunting double rifle of absolutely traditional style. The design, the profile, the dimensions are those of all “Express” rifles – side-by-side double rifles – built for big game hunting, specifically for the African Big Five: elephant, cape buffalo, rhino, lion, and

www.sabatti.it

I think I paid $2600 new for mine fifteen years ago. I hand selected it out of about 40 choices, finding one that regulated well from the factory. It was an unremarkable $2600 gun and I sold it perfectly functional. I just don't enjoy owning low quality items and it didn't exude pride of craftsmanship, it exuded cheap double rifle for a guy that has no business owning a double rifle. (that was me at the time)

I totally understand your sentiment and desire to only own quality hunting rifles. I am a bit envious that you got a Sabatti for $2600 even 15 years ago. The one I saw at Cabela's was $5000 and that was at least that long ago.

Again, thanks for the detailed response. Very interesting.

 

[rookhawk]

I've heard this from multiple sources. I know that they are shipped with the target from the final regulation, or at least they used to have that included. Are you saying that the target is not to be trusted?

Correct. Ken Owen made a cottage industry out of fixing these guns so they would regulate by recrowning and installing a new regulating wedge, test firing, etc.

I've also heard this one, the Dremel thing. That's really hard to imagine.

It's 100% true. Interestingly enough, Krieghoff also will do this shenanigan to regulate their double rifles, one of the reasons I don't go for K-guns.

Are these Laser engraved? It doesn't look like it but I can't really tell what "technique" they use because it doesn't look "sharp" as you would expect with hand or even Laser engraving.

It's laser or acid etched. Some are then picked up with an autograver after, the less expensive ones are not.

Huh? What's aluminum, certainly not the rib.

They have this totally crap bar stock aluminum thing about 6" long that you screw to the rib to install totally cut-rate scope mounts. It's disgusting. Think of $7 aluminum weaver bases from the 1970s.

The only one that I have ever handled was at Cabela's many years ago when they decided to sell them. At that time the wood was Turkish Walnut and quite beautiful. Yes it had a gloss finish, probably polyurethane, Browning did/does the same on at least some of their rifles. Like you I do not like that finish or look so I usually strip it off and put an oil finish on those rifles.

Many of them had grain enhanced wood using paints. Yes, then poly over the top. I believe the engraving on the lower models was pressed rather than hand cut.

Does this include the Safari Big Five?

Safari Big Five Express rifle (Safari Big Five)

Sabatti Safari Big Five big game hunting double rifle of absolutely traditional style. The design, the profile, the dimensions are those of all “Express” rifles – side-by-side double rifles – built for big game hunting, specifically for the African Big Five: elephant, cape buffalo, rhino, lion, and

www.sabatti.it

Not sure what the current state is of the Big-5. I know enough to stay away. If I'm taking on a major project to make a double safari-worthy, I'd rather put those efforts into regulating and refining a vintage British gun or getting loads developed for a Heym. Same effort/cost of labor, better outcomes.

I totally understand your sentiment and desire to only own quality hunting rifles. I am a bit envious that you got a Sabatti for $2600 even 15 years ago. The one I saw at Cabela's was $5000 and that was at least that long ago.

Again, thanks for the detailed response. Very interesting.

They dumped those CAB serial number guns (for Cabelas) for as little as $2k in the 9x3x74r and 45-70 configurations. The big-5 extractor guns were around $3400.

I think they were overpriced on clearance, but I don't like cut-rate double rifles when someone is far better off with a premium quality magazine rifle at those pricepoints. I love doubles, but I try to discourage people from owning them knowing how much it costs to get a good double, and how little it costs to get a phenomenal bolt gun.

 

[Rafiki]

.... I don't like cut-rate double rifles when someone is far better off with a premium quality magazine rifle at those pricepoints. I love doubles, but I try to discourage people from owning them knowing how much it costs to get a good double, and how little it costs to get a phenomenal bolt gun.

You are of course correct on that. A double is a rather specialized tool mainly for a specific purpose. I don't have one but always wanted one just because of the mystique. I shoot a .500 Ruger No 1 which is strange enough, but last year I bought and rebuilt a Ruger RSM .375. I've admired the RSM for a long time but it is a clunky beast so I set out to fix that; $7000 later (including rifle & scope) I managed to do just that.

Anyway, this is all way off subject so again, thanks for your response.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

Many.

First, they are made by a cut-rate Italian shotgun manufacturer so they aren't qualified.

Being unqualified, they didn't know the first thing about double rifles so it came as no surprise they would not regulate and hit the broadside of a barn.

Being that they are junk and they have no pride in manufacture, a bunch of them that would not regulate, they attempted to regulate by using a dremel on the crowns thinking they could yaw the bullets into minute of trashcan lid by hacksaw gunsmithing.

Then it comes to the fake engraving, the disgusting aluminum scope mount systems, the fake/enhanced wood stocks, the polyurethane finish, and that most of them are built on basic shotgun actions rather than purpose-built rifle actions.

I think I paid $2600 new for mine fifteen years ago. I hand selected it out of about 40 choices, finding one that regulated well from the factory. It was an unremarkable $2600 gun and I sold it perfectly functional. I just don't enjoy owning low quality items and it didn't exude pride of craftsmanship, it exuded cheap double rifle for a guy that has no business owning a double rifle. (that was me at the time)

Thank you for answering the original poster of the question with all the details haha. He needed someone with “actual experience” when I tried explaining that I’ve killed more buff than the 42 years I’ve been alive. Not sure what more “actual experience” he wanted.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

I think he meant to ask you for examples. Not your bonafides.

And I gave examples. He didn’t ask for those. He word for word asked for actual experience. Simple stuff.

 

[ingwe500nitroexpress]

I've heard this from multiple sources. I know that they are shipped with the target from the final regulation, or at least they used to have that included. Are you saying that the target is not to be trusted?


I've also heard this one, the Dremel thing. That's really hard to imagine.


Are these Laser engraved? It doesn't look like it but I can't really tell what "technique" they use because it doesn't look "sharp" as you would expect with hand or even Laser engraving.


Huh? What's aluminum, certainly not the rib.


The only one that I have ever handled was at Cabela's many years ago when they decided to sell them. At that time the wood was Turkish Walnut and quite beautiful. Yes it had a gloss finish, probably polyurethane, Browning did/does the same on at least some of their rifles. Like you I do not like that finish or look so I usually strip it off and put an oil finish on those rifles.


Does this include the Safari Big Five?

Safari Big Five Express rifle (Safari Big Five)

Sabatti Safari Big Five big game hunting double rifle of absolutely traditional style. The design, the profile, the dimensions are those of all “Express” rifles – side-by-side double rifles – built for big game hunting, specifically for the African Big Five: elephant, cape buffalo, rhino, lion, and

www.sabatti.it

I totally understand your sentiment and desire to only own quality hunting rifles. I am a bit envious that you got a Sabatti for $2600 even 15 years ago. The one I saw at Cabela's was $5000 and that was at least that long ago.

Again, thanks for the detailed response. Very interesting.

All due respect, but it seems you’re dead set on defending these sabattis as multiple answers have been provided by others suck as te regulation target, and you’re asking “does that mean the target shouldn’t be trusted”. Did you happen to make a mistake and buy one or are still seriously considering one? That’s what it sounds like. I’ve seen 4 or 5 come off a bush plane brand new in a clients hand and not be able to put together. I’ve seen them with wood cracked in the throat after less than a full box of cartridges. I’ve seen springs go bad with minimal use, ejectors fail, triggers walk loose, uncontrollable doubling when using the front trigger first, a plethora of issues. They’re a 10 thousand dollar rifle in a world where the reliable rifles realistically start at 25k. There’s a reason they’re 10k. I would not trust one to hunt buffalo with and the 10k would go a lot further with a bolt rifle. They’re just no good. As I try and tell everyone, just buy the 89b and never have to worry about the rifle.