Help with info on a Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle

[steve white]

Don Henry (RIP) of the Mannlicher Collector's Assoc. always advised me to keep loading on my 1908 MS to the lower side of manual specs., not exceeding the middle pressure recommendations. He claimed the metalurgy of the early years was nowhere near as robust as, for example, a model 1950 or year models forward.

 

[PCC600]

I was not aware it edged out the 375 H&H flanged! Not too shabby.

It was not more power more powerful than the 375 H&H flanged magnum . Not even close . The 375 flanged referred to in Red Leg’s post is the older 375 flanged 2.5 inch cartridge . It was obsolete before WW1 .

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Hard to see in the photos, but if the bipod did not involve permanent alteration, no major 'foul' has been committed in my opinion.

Grand Dad's 1922 proofed M1910 Take Down Model wears a Gerard B 'scope on claw mounts. A 'period' alteration which was done before he purchased it second hand in late 1929 or January of '30.

Bottom line; it's your rifle and if that suits you better and makes it more practical for intended use - have at it. If someone were to rechamber it to 6.5 Creedmoor or paint it pink, that would be a major 'party foul'.

Please do elaborate on your 'fire forming' technique and process. Watch for stretched and weakened brass in the 'web' area.

Also, what projectiles are you using?

Too late to edit. I just realized, having reread the thread, the error of my comment regarding bipod and / or other 'alterations'.

It's a replacement stock as the original was irreparably broken at the wrist.

The grip area seems to differ from originals, likely more suitable to owner, original 'special folding peep sight' was preserved. Scope looks anachronistic to the 'purist' (because it is).

I'm all for it.

A step further; If I had a source for a proper fitting and balanced synthetic stock for my (Grand Dad's) M1910 Take Down Model I'd gladly use it while leaving original stock in its fitted case while synthetic takes the wear if I were to use it frequently or in bad weather. I'd even consider a picatinny rail to fit the 1920s claw mount

In addition, the metal looked pretty 'rough' in the initial photos of Dyls85's M1910, I commend him for bringing her back to use.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Red Leg’s post is the older 375 flanged 2.5 inch cartridge . It was obsolete before WW1 .

Also known as Velopex.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Some bacon with the M1910

The purpose for which she was born.

Kudos for bringing a 'retired' Mannlicher Schoenauer M1910 back to life.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Or these:

View attachment 682677

Marked as "9.5X57 Mauser", but purchased (by me) direct from RCBS about 1990, correct part number for MS, assured by RCBS they were proper, have used to resize .35 Whelen to near perfect copies of DWM531.

Yes, the CH4D are marked the same. My understanding after speaking with CH4D is they are the same specs. I have NOT been able to find info on a 9.5X57 Mauser. My ability to search online seems to be atrophying, when I search on 9.5X57Mauser, I get Mannlicher hits, and info on the 9X57 Mauser. But those dies will do.

 

[Rolland]

I just received a set of CN4D dies and went through the same thing, they call them 9.5 X 56 and and assured me that they are the same as 9.5 X 57. I loaded up 20 rounds and they work perfect.

 

[Dyls85]

Hard to see in the photos, but if the bipod did not involve permanent alteration, no major 'foul' has been committed in my opinion.

Grand Dad's 1922 proofed M1910 Take Down Model wears a Gerard B 'scope on claw mounts. A 'period' alteration which was done before he purchased it second hand in late 1929 or January of '30.

Bottom line; it's your rifle and if that suits you better and makes it more practical for intended use - have at it. If someone were to rechamber it to 6.5 Creedmoor or paint it pink, that would be a major 'party foul'.

Please do elaborate on your 'fire forming' technique and process. Watch for stretched and weakened brass in the 'web' area.

Also, what projectiles are you using?

For the fire forming I take annealed 30 06 brass,run it through a full length sizing die with the primer extractor and expander ball removed to push the shoulder back, then prime and load up with 18gr S335 powder (apparently a faster burning pistol powder works better but I used what I had) then fill the cartridge with maize flour and block the top with a bit of soap to seal it off.
Then fire it off, some times it doesn’t quite expand enough, but it is enough to run the expander ball through afterwards. I then trim the cartridge back down to 57mm and voila and perfect useable case.
Projectiles I have tried a few different ones, I was using old pmp round nose 286gr lead cores but they are very hard to come by, I’ve recently found another South African manufacturer (Axe bullets) that does 250gr copper and 250gr brass round nose in 375, they cycle beautifully through the magazine and on 46gr S335 powder I’m grouping at around an inch to inch and a half on 100m. All and all very very happy!

 

[Sarg]

Also known as Velopex.

I don’t believe that is correct Velopex is the 400/375 Belted Nitro, similar ballistics to .375 Rimless Nitro / 9.5x56MS
The .375 2 1/2in NE is 150fps less with the 270gr bullet but I think with the factory 320gr @ 2000fps it would edge them out ?

I load my .375Ex 2 1/2in higher but less than max as I use in Lee Speeds & Steyr rifles.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I just received a set of CN4D dies and went through the same thing, they call them 9.5 X 56 and and assured me that they are the same as 9.5 X 57. I loaded up 20 rounds and they work perfect.

Yes. The reason for that is the Austrians measure rimless cases to the top of the "rim", the Germans (and CIP, dimension L3) the overall case length. So that 1mm difference between the two is actually the "rim" itself.

Where I get confused is the 9.5X57 Mannlicher Schönauer, and the 9.5X57 Mauser. I haven't been able to find anything on the latter, and it's not listed in the CIP list.

 

[Rolland]

If you want to know more about this rifle contact James Purdey in London . They have the books for James Woodward ( purchased by Purdey circa 1947 ) . They will provide full written details including - date of rifle sale , the buyer details , original stock dimensions etc . All for a fee but not overly expensive.

Does this service apply to all the MS rifles? If so how might I contact them?

 

[PCC600]

Does this service apply to all the MS rifles? If so how might I contact them?

It would only apply to MS rifles retailed by either Purdey or Woodward ( and stamped on barrels or actions accordingly ). If you need to contact Purdey just go onto their website . You are simply looking for a gun history . I did it for my Purdey double rifle and they came back to me with full details within about one week .

 

[Borderer]

I have been reading John Taylor’s book and he mentioned that the Mannlicher Schoenaur is known for failing to extract fired cases. How common is this?

 

[SaintPanzer]

I have been reading John Taylor’s book and he mentioned that the Mannlicher Schoenaur is known for failing to extract fired cases. How common is this?

I've never heard this, and I've never had this problem.

W.D.M. Bell did state he had unreliable cartridges that split, causing issues with extracting, but I'd always thought that meant difficult bolt lift, and I assumed that was based on cartridge quality, not rifle quality. This was his stated reason for switching to the 7X57 Mauser.

What I have heard, but cannot assert, was a comment by Finn Aagard. He noted that he preferred the Mauser, because its action was a bit "sloppier" (i.e. not machined as precisely). The stated reason was that the Mauser allowed for some grit, but the Mannlicher was less reliable if dust/grit got into the action, as it became too tight to work.

I've never had that problem either, though if my Drill Instructor caught me with grit like that in my rifle, no matter the circumstances, I can't imagine the hell that would ensue.

 

[steve white]

I have been reading John Taylor’s book and he mentioned that the Mannlicher Schoenaur is known for failing to extract fired cases. How common is this?

I think Taylor had a strong anti-German bias in general. I have never been able to find other corroboration of his remarks about failing to extract. My personal experiences with Mannlicher-Schoenauers have been uniformly exemplary!

 

[grand veneur]

MS actions in good shape works perfectly. Compared to a Mauser 98 action, it is a more complex bolt action in terms of technology and therefore certainly more prone to malfunctions, but which as the owner of two MS rifles I have also never observed. Nevertheless, I don't used both rifles for hunting in Africa and therefore remain careful with a statement about the absolute reliability of this bolt actions under very hard conditions on this continent.