Has magnum action today, really become history?

[503]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the cost difference to manufacture a magnum action vs a standard? Is upping the size of the action slightly that much more work?

Cheers

 

[Opposite Pole]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the cost difference to manufacture a magnum action vs a standard? Is upping the size of the action slightly that much more work?

Cheers

I think it’s more an issue of far lesser demand for the magnum size action vs standard given the same cost of machining tools associated with it. With less demand for the final product, ceteris paribus the per unit cost runs much higher.

Many of us forget that other than with folks on this forum true magnum-size chamberings are not all that popular, and perhaps for valid reasons. Of all the hunters I personally know in Australia and Poland I can count people using big bores on my fingers, the rest have no need for or interest in true magnum-size actions.

 

[mark-hunter]

Huh? Am I missing something here?

Possibly.
There are three action lengths as widely accepted standard.

Short action.
The most powerful (arguably) short action round is 308 Win. LOA - 2.8''.
All cartridges of that size and less go in short action.
223 rem (loa 2.26 inch), 308 win, 243 win, etc. This max lenght is not fixed, and with some designs some a bit longer cartridges can fit in short action, But as general rule, 308 win LOA and below defines short action.

Medium action
- is for cartridges such as 30-06 (LOA 3.34), but rough standard for medium action is LOA -3.34 inch cartridge, or less.Medium action is defined as general rule for cartridges between 2.8 and 3.34 inch LOA

Now look at this:
300 win mag - LOA 3.34 inch
338 win mag - LOA 3.34 inch
458 win mag LOA 3.34 inch

Magnum length action:
Cartridges with LOA above 3.34 inch get into realm of magnum length action.
Most famous are 375 H&H - LOA 3.6 inch and 416 rigby - LOA 3.75 inch.
With a bit of gunsmith redesign work, 375 HH can fit to medium lenght action, but it is extra work on medium action, adjustment and probably higher production cost. Two rifles of medium action that come to mind are: WInchester m70 and zastava m 70, are done like that to take widely poplar 375 HH round.
.
Cost of this design on medium action is also reduced mag capacity, and in some cases feeding problems, if adjustment to large cartridge was not done properly.

So to put large cartridges in big guns, you need magnum action.
But, keeping production of short, medium and magnum action is keeping three productin lines, and this increases the cost of production.
Factories avoid this, because for magnum lenght action is relatively small market. (who of all the hunters in the worl, really needs elephant gun?)

So, market for magnum cartridges is relatively small, reserved for big bore aficionados, and Dangerous game hunters.
95% of rifle users will be happy with calibers in medium and short action, as they cover calibers for sport shooting, and 95% of all world wide hunting needs.

So, majority of factories avoid making guns in magnum lenght action. To avoid extra production costs, for separate production lines. If they make it it will be expensive.

But in that way DG hunters, middle class market suffers.

So, companies like ruger, or remington invented short (and fat) magnums, like
375 ruger - LOA 3.34 inch (ups!) - ballistic twin of 375 H&H, that fits in medium action
Or,
416 rem mag LOA 3.6 inch (same lenght as 375 HH), ballistic twins of 416 rigby (loa 3.75 inch) , of resonable lenght in modern shorter version then rigby variant.
All shorties are designed to fit with design adjustment in medium lenght bolt action.

There is nothing wrong with them, those short magnums - ballisticlly, They have power and performance, but problem for them is, ammunition is not always widely available. Especially in Africa.

They are better for reloaders, then for those that depend on factory ammo.
Which factories make ammo in this caliber? (Few) If I buy rifle in short modern magnum, I will not have possibility to buy ammo in my place / country.

In the sam time, high end factories and workshops keep producing magnum length action for DG guns in magnum leght calibers, for classic and traditionally popular calibers.
But going that route, the rifle classic magnum leght caliber today will be very expensive. New mauser 98 in magnum leght action goes for more that 10k eur. or more. Thats the cheapest

Standard factories avoid producing magnum length action, so this becomes commodity for higher class exclusively. Blue collar class, will more and more depend on medium action rifle, and short magnums because of price of rifle.

Factories that I know that produce magnum length action are Sako (non mauser 98 type), then: Mauser, Heym.

Elite workshops such as H&H, RIgby, Westley richards, purdey.
Thats magnum action prudced today, and now check the price.

Then you have all other common man factories, producing medium length action, and very few that chamber 375 H&H.
To be noted, 375 H&H is most available DG magnum ammunition today, but finding a rifle for acceptable blue collar price, is another matter.
Bottom line, magnum length action becomes extinct. Thus the question.

Try to find one for reasonable price, not being second hand.

 

[Vinootz]

I was being nice.Lol Ok let me be more clear. OF COURSE THERE ARE STILL MAGNUM ACTIONS !!!
Some people are too funny. LMAO
Possible you feel you missed your calling and should have been a school teacher?

 

[Fixfire]

I was being nice.Lol Ok let me be more clear. OF COURSE THERE ARE STILL MAGNUM ACTIONS !!!
Some people are too funny. LMAO
Possible you feel you missed your calling and should have been a school teacher?

LMAO!!
Mark is very thorough. I don’t think his reply was meant to be condescending!!
I for one found this thread educational.

 

[mark-hunter]

Thanks @Fixfire

 

[Tra3]

@mark-hunter interesting thread. I agree that finding a magnum length action is rare. I wonder if total output of companies making them is trending downward? Or due to population increase could it be that total production is still the same?
Another question, how many of the magnum length actions purchased by members here were new vs. used?

 

[mark-hunter]

Another question, how many of the magnum length actions purchased by members here were new vs. used?

Good question.
Wild guess, new vs used: 20% : 80%. (?)

(there is quite a lot of rebarreling made on this forum, as well, goes under "used")

 

[Angelo_orygun]

@mark-hunter interesting thread. I agree that finding a magnum length action is rare. I wonder if total output of companies making them is trending downward? Or due to population increase could it be that total production is still the same?
Another question, how many of the magnum length actions purchased by members here were new vs. used?

Interesting poll for sure! I’ll bite:

2 rifles new (Kimber, CZ550), 1 rifle used( AHR DGR), I action used (pre-64 375).

 

[mark-hunter]

cz 550 is phased out, so I guess its few years old purchase? (still valid as "new")

Mine is zkk 602, vintage 85, so used one. ( I spent two years searching for magnum length action, m98 type, affordable)

 

[Northern Shooter]

Chiming in from 2024.

The trend continues for the diminishing of true magnum-length actions being available in mass produced rifles from the "big guys".

The Sako 85 line has since fallen to the same fate as the CZ550's, being the last of the affordable XL magnums available to the average working man.

Like others have commented there are still plenty of offerings that will fit the 375HH, 416 RemMag and the 3.34 Magnums, however if you're in the market for a 416 Rigby, 450 Rigby, 505 Gibbs etc. you're now looking at 5 figure Mausers, Heyms, Parkwest Arms and the like.

 

[dogcat1]

Stuart Satterlee makes a superb Mauser 98 clone in titanium. I have one. Very good.

 

[t-rags]

Chiming in from 2024.

The trend continues for the diminishing of true magnum-length actions being available in mass produced rifles from the "big guys".

The Sako 85 line has since fallen to the same fate as the CZ550's, being the last of the affordable XL magnums available to the average working man.

Like others have commented there are still plenty of offerings that will fit the 375HH, 416 RemMag and the 3.34 Magnums, however if you're in the market for a 416 Rigby, 450 Rigby, 505 Gibbs etc. you're now looking at 5 figure Mausers, Heyms, Parkwest Arms and the like.

This is true. Unless it’s custom, factory productions are far and few between. Gotta get them when Winchester pushes out available waves of their model 70 actions in certain calibers. I’d get my hands in them before they’re out of production lineup too. IMO

 

[rookhawk]

Chiming in from 2024.

The trend continues for the diminishing of true magnum-length actions being available in mass produced rifles from the "big guys".

The Sako 85 line has since fallen to the same fate as the CZ550's, being the last of the affordable XL magnums available to the average working man.

Like others have commented there are still plenty of offerings that will fit the 375HH, 416 RemMag and the 3.34 Magnums, however if you're in the market for a 416 Rigby, 450 Rigby, 505 Gibbs etc. you're now looking at 5 figure Mausers, Heyms, Parkwest Arms and the like.

You're correct for the most part. Joe sixpack will always be able to find the 375HH/458WM rifles available in long+ actions for affordabe prices, but those aren't the super magnum actions needed for 416rigby and 500jeff as you know. The average consumer can spend $2000 to shoot such a gun for recreation, but it may not be safari-worthy. (e.g. $1500 for a Ruger #1) There will always be shortcuts on the market for recreational hobbyists, but a true mauser magnum action in a true magnum caliber is indeed, a five-figure expense in 2024 if you're looking for a NEW gun. A savvy used buyer can get a nice one for $2500-$6000 if they shop smart, but those guns continue to climb in price.

For the person that needs a true magnum because they intend to do dangerous game safaris, the limiting factor won't be availability of quality guns. DG hunts being priced what they are, the extra cost of a now more expensive rifle won't be the deal breaker.

 

[Northern Shooter]

I guess the Weatherby Mark V would still meet this criteria for about $2,500 in the 416 and 460 WBY cartridges.

However I can see why not everyone would gravitate towards these due to a few factors:
1. Rifle weight of 8.25lbs (ouch)
2. Capacity of 2+1
3. Proprietary cartridges
4. Velocity + Recoil.
5. Pushfeed.

 

[rookhawk]

I guess the Weatherby Mark V would still meet this criteria for about $2,500 in the 416 and 460 WBY cartridges.

However I can see why not everyone would gravitate towards these due to a few factors:
1. Rifle weight of 8.25lbs (ouch)
2. Capacity of 2+1
3. Proprietary cartridges
4. Velocity + Recoil.
5. Pushfeed.

And the last unstated reason, the 416 Weatherby is surely faster than the 416 rigby? Even 416 Rigby has become a problematic caliber in recent decades. PHs hate seeing clients bringing them on lion hunts. The reason is that the factory loads of even Rigby are moving so much faster than the original Kynoch specs that they tend to zip through. A weatherby would be more of a bad thing.

One of the biggest laments I hear from PHs today is people are bringing guns that have bullets too hard moving too fast which makes recovery problematic.

Just another reason that the weatherby option may not be suitable inclusive of your top-5.

 

[skydiver386]

I’ve always considered true magnum actions as those built for a 416 Rigby and up. And that without shoehorning it like Selbys standard action 416. Not sure if that’s a proper delineation, but that’s where my mind goes when someone says Magnum action…

Exactly. I consider .375 H&H bolt face and length to be magnum, but only .416 Rigby and above to be African or Safari sized. Before we can place anything in a certain category, we really need to define the terms.

 

[Huvius]

Has anyone here seen a reworked Savage 110?
I suspect these can accommodated the 416 Rigby without much fuss.

I agree that the vast majority of true magnum actioned rifles are bought on the used market. They have never been a mainstay of any manufacturer - Mauser made maybe 7000 magnum length actions total And Ruger is said to have made 8000 of their RSMs. So to my mind, the demand for newly manufactured true magnums hasn’t changed much considering the population boom and that there are four manufacturers at least at the end of the 20th Century.

There are still second hand magnum rifles in the “working man” price range - Ruger RSMs, CZs to name a couple.
Are they as nice as a true magnum Mauser? Nope.
Are they 1/3 the price of a good Mauser? Yep

 

[Northern Shooter]

And the last unstated reason, the 416 Weatherby is surely faster than the 416 rigby? Even 416 Rigby has become a problematic caliber in recent decades. PHs hate seeing clients bringing them on lion hunts. The reason is that the factory loads of even Rigby are moving so much faster than the original Kynoch specs that they tend to zip through. A weatherby would be more of a bad thing.

One of the biggest laments I hear from PHs today is people are bringing guns that have bullets too hard moving too fast which makes recovery problematic.

Just another reason that the weatherby option may not be suitable inclusive of your top-5.

After shooting a 416 Rigby for the first time, the last thing I would ask for would be another 300 FPS.

416 Weatherby - 83lbs ft-lbs of recoil, 460 Weatherby - 110 ftl-bs of recoil.

No thanks.

 

[rookhawk]

I was speaking with Ken Owen over the weekend about this topic. (Ken is a legend in the double rifle / safari rifle world). He was mentioning the original Kynoch / ICI loads using cordite all used 28" test barrels and the velocities were embellished a bit as well. Bottom line, all the storied tales of success were with 416 Rigby rifles shooting real-world velocities of 2050FPS-2150FPS, whereas the new factory loads are going at real-world 2350-2400FPS using a much tougher bullet. The bullet isn't dumping its energy into the animal, it's going straight through it. Not a good thing.