Good news...but I'm greedy for more

[Shootist43]

I forgot to mention that you need a jag that isn't brass and a nylon bristle bore brush. Tipton sells a nickel coated set of jags that covers most calibers. The nylon brushes come in sets of three. These are available from Midway as well. I try to purchase the nylon brushes slightly oversized if possible. You will be surprised how well these copper removers work. GUARANTEED!!

 

[Pheroze]

I tried this Hoppes foam and was astounded at the filth and copper that came out!

I used shooters choice and sweets 7.62 previously and as caustic and horrible smelling as they were, they did not clean like hoppes foam.

If it wasn't behaving accurately I'd use more cleaners. At this point I'm afraid I may remove lead and copper that have filled the pits and may lead to poorer accuracy. Crazy thought?

My PH gives me heck everytime I mention cleaning my gun. For him it is a boresnake and that's it. I scrubbed the barrel of my 30-06 and got out every bit of copper using the Barnes solution. It shot at least 8" higher after that (literally hit the top of the target) and I had to rezero. I cannot say my groups are any tighter however. So, my thought is that if the groups are good then I will leave it alone.

 

[Shootist43]

I agree with the PH that does not want a barrel scrubbed out during a hunt. However if he never cleans it thoroughly with brushes, tight fitting jags etc. he is doing more harm than good. Back in 1987 I bought a 30-06 Sako from a guy at my gun club. He just didn't want it anymore. I didn't bother to look down the bore because I thought the retired Army Sargent would have kept the bore clean. When I took the rifle to the range it shot for sh..! To this day I think that's why the Sargent sold me the gun. When I got it home I looked down the bore and to my amazement didn't see any lands or grooves. They were totally filled up. After many hours of scrubbing with Hoppes No 9 and JB Bore Cleaner etc. I could see the rifling After repeated soakings and more scrubbing I got the rifle clean. Now it, just like my other Sakos shoots MOA.

In a recent Shooting Sports Magazine published by the NRA for competitive shooters the U.S. Army Marksmanship Training Unit published an article discussing the use of bore-snakes. In short the article concluded that while bore-snakes may have their place, they are no substitute for a thorough cleaning.

 

[dchamp]

I'm not sure about COAL as it didn't matter / wasn't alterable in this rifle. The two woodleigh bullets (soft and solid) have a crimp canaleur so the seat depth is fixed. The brass is under max OAL New from Bertram. I inserted tab A into slot B and called it a day.

The barrel is around 24" I think. A few things to keep in mind about .318wr.

1.) the published data is from two sources. Woodleigh manual and Graeme Wright's book.

2.) both sources are redundant and retreads of one another

3.) the data is wrought with errors and rounding...can't trust it.

4.) the original data from 1921 in Britain (Kynoch) is dubious. They lied as to original speed. They also used 26" and 28" barrels.

So, as to speed. The published 2400fps was never anything but fiction and then they used a long barrel to further the fiction.

A imr4350 load at 53gr at 2200fps regulates to the sights on the gun. Conclusion: FPS of the original load was in the same velocity neighborhood, not 200fps faster.

Not sure about the out to 160yds comment. Can you elaborate on your thinking? That 1900fps is important for a woodleigh soft? I find they work well down to 1400 in other rifles of different calibers.

At 325 yards it has the requisite 1500ft pounds of energy to bring down elk, Kudu, Eland, waterbuck, zebra, oryx. Inside 100 yards it's literally a laser beam by the drop tables. It appears to have the right stuff out to my maximum shooting range of 325 and it drops 10" at my comfortable shooting distance of 225 yards.

The other recipes I've seen are about 1gr more or less powder for H4350 and RL19. The case holds 69 grams of water so there is more room than pressure will alllow in most powders.

I use Quick Load, it's a modeling program for load development that I have found helpful especially with cartridges with little information. QL showed 3.53" as the max COAL but when I used 250gr Woodleigh's it barely entered the neck so I adjusted it down to 3.30" seating the bullet .4"into the neck. At first when I ran your numbers QL said it would be running 2343fps and 51081psi. The listed max pressure is 47862psi. I adjusted QL to your 2200fps and that brought the pressure down to 41629psi

I then sent the results into QL's exterior ballistic program. I set atmospherics to std.sea level, 2200MV and 1" high at 100yds. At 160yds the bullet has slowed to 1904fps w/2011 ft-lbs, at 225yds it is going 1791fps w/1780 ft-lbs and 8" of drop, at 300yds is 1667fps w/ 1542 ft-lbs and 22" of drop. At 325yds QL is estimating 1627fps w/1469 ft-lbs and 28" of drop.

 

[rookhawk]

@dchamp why do you suppose QL said the load was over pressure initially?

 

[dchamp]

@dchamp why do you suppose QL said the load was over pressure initially?

QL either gets powder information from the manufacturers or they have to do their own testing which is expensive. Sometimes there are differences in the powders burn characteristics over time such as lot to lot variances. I have learned that when all the input data is right and my muzzle velocity has the amount of difference as in your case I can adjust the burn rate factor to match the recorded muzzle velocity which alters the max pressure.

There are somethings QL cannot take into account though, such as the effect of primers. Another is QL treats the adjustment of seating depths in a linear manner. I have found through experience that when seating bullets out to a longer overall length, muzzle velocity often rises. QL will treat that with a lower MV and lower pressure.

If you are not getting any pressure signs and the load shoots well consistently then I would be happy.

 

[rookhawk]

@dchamp I could use some more assistance from you as the quickload guru if you're willing to help yet again?

I went back to the range and shot again yesterday.

Facts:

Woodleigh SP Weldcore
250gr
BC of .420
Bullet seated depth .385"
Bullet Diameter .330"

.318 Westley Richards
Bertram Brass - Once Fired
69 gram water capacity
COAL 3.325"

WLR Primer
IMR4350 Powder - 53gr

Shot from 25" Barrel Westley Richards Take Down Mauser Action

Shots taken without wind at 53 degrees Fahrenheit
Shots taken at 787 feet above sea level
Velocity of 5 shot string observed by radar 2246, 2223, 2218, 2216, 2248. (Average Velocity 2230)


Based on above facts, what does Quickload think my velocity should be versus observed?
What is the pressure with these calculations above?
What would the pressure and velocity potentially be at 53.5, 54 and 54.5 grains of IMR4350?

 

[rookhawk]

Almost forgot to update on range report regarding accuracy as a few of you inquired.

Shooting setup. Shot from a bench with a wood block elevating a single sandbag. My palm holding forend of the rifle, separating rifle from the sandbag. (to prevent changes in harmonics from field shooting conditions) Shot at 6x from Swarovski 1-6x24 scope.

100 Yard Cold Bore first shot - Deviation from bullseye of .460" on first cold bore attempt. Deviation from bullseye of .640" on second cold bore attempt.

50 Yard Hot Bore 10 shot rapid fire - Group of 3.33"

50 Yard Warm Bore aimed 3 shot group - 1.066"

100 Yard Warm Bore aimed 3 shot group - 1.908"

Several problems - One, I'm a terrible shot. Two, I can't see that precisely with the 6x scope to aim small on the red graph paper targets I used. Three, the trigger on this rifle is really mediocre - 4lbs 5 ounce pull. I think I need to put the rifle on a several bags forward and aft to get more consistent results.

I shot 25 rounds total and the only cleaning I did was I pulled a clean boresnake through twice (no solvents or oil applied) just to remove powder residue, not to remove any fouling per se.

 

[dchamp]

@dchamp I could use some more assistance from you as the quickload guru if you're willing to help yet again?

I went back to the range and shot again yesterday.

Facts:

Woodleigh SP Weldcore
250gr
BC of .420
Bullet seated depth .385"
Bullet Diameter .330"

.318 Westley Richards
Bertram Brass - Once Fired
69 gram water capacity
COAL 3.325"

WLR Primer
IMR4350 Powder - 53gr

Shot from 25" Barrel Westley Richards Take Down Mauser Action

Shots taken without wind at 53 degrees Fahrenheit
Shots taken at 787 feet above sea level
Velocity of 5 shot string observed by radar 2246, 2223, 2218, 2216, 2248. (Average Velocity 2230)


Based on above facts, what does Quickload think my velocity should be versus observed?
What is the pressure with these calculations above?
What would the pressure and velocity potentially be at 53.5, 54 and 54.5 grains of IMR4350?

After inputting from above and adjusting the powder to match your velocity this is what QL modeled.
53.0gr imr 4350 @2230 indicates 41,981psi....1905fps @175yds
Leaving all adjustments alone:
53.5gr imr 4350 indicates 2251fps & 43,145psi...1924fps @175yds
54.0gr imr 4350......2272fps & 44340psi...........1898fps @200yds
54.5gr imr 4350......2293fps & 45,569psi ......... 1917fps @200yds

In the past I have observed that when you change things as we have done here the results don't always follow in a linear fashion. I'm not sayin don't bump it up I'm just sayin proceed with caution as always. Remember the next batch/lot of powder you buy could give different results.

 

[rookhawk]

@dchamp thank you so much for your valuable insights.

Here is an interesting factoid: lying liars lie! The published ICI and kynoch loads from around 1920 call for 2400fps using cordite with 250gr bullet at 18.5tpsi and 19.5tpsi. 43,680 pressure if 19.5 x 2240 long tons. This from a 28" barrel so probably 50fps max less from a 25".

The common theme I find is that NO ONE ever got published speeds whatsoever. I have some vintage kynoch ammo and I want to run it over a chrony to prove this.

It appears 53.5gr of IMR4350 will be just under a compressed load and just under the max pressure the gun was regulated for, yet it only yields 2250fps!

Just astounding how consistently false the published ballistics on British cartridges were. I've not yet seen one accurately presented so i guess it shouldn't suprise me the same holds for .318 Westley!

Thanks again for the info, I really appreciated the regression analysis! I'll be sure to try 53.5gr to see if it shoots any better than 53gr but it seems like I'm very near the limits of what is appropriate and now I can only tune it a bit.