FPS for Reliable .500NE Expansion

[franzfmdavis]

570 grain A-Frame Swifts in my Heym 89B regulate very close at 50 yards (under 2") around 2100 fps.

The bullet to the right is out of a buffalo shot at 40 yards.

View attachment 693757

What is you recipe if I may ask, or are they factory?

 

[Fordy]

Gday hunter habib

Another one you boys might want to consider.

.510 Cal-570gr Stone Hammer® - Hammer Bullets

This 50 caliber Stone Hammer™ is designed in the traditional weight of 570gr for regulation in the double rifles. This pure copper bullet will handle any of the dangerous game animals on the planet. It will expand and shed weight while still penetrating as well as a solid. This will give you...

hammerbullets.com

I can’t emphasise enough that above is not a good option well imo as I won’t accept failures like this pill exhibits

Numerous bovine lost with this pill & the description on this part should start ringing some bells take note of the reference to “ penetrating as well as any solid “ that is simply untrue yet sounds good to the new comer

Yes I don’t believe it & seen why as they have yes report these types of pills on “any “ is giving a individual false information

So let’s delve a little deeper & see if I’m just too anal or have some merit in my position of good vrs bad regardless of brand yes I don’t just like dead critters but hate lost ones more

I had the 2 hammerboys & their gunsmith out to Aussie on testing over for about 3 weeks (10 day testing approx & I’ll have to confirm off my notes that over 140 critters were taken ) on top of what I was also doing @ the time on hammerbullets & showed numerous failures yet the stuff like above is broadcast without concern of the critter or fellow man

So I wonder how these go on an elephant let alone more bovines ???? Hmmm I think not a good idea & wouldn’t even attempt as

Here’s one of the hammer 570 SH pill my son & mate found

after loosing their first bovine my mate hit on a nice broadside shot that it staggered & fell her then while the next was taken along a touch further the first was back up & went into thick cover before they got back to her ( later done grid pattern to confirm no dead critter over many acres plus no bird activity on following days ) & only reason this one in pictures was recovered as the pill on impacting the rib gave enough spine damage from rib being forced inwards to spine that it crippled her

( she was shot in head on 2nd shot with a 375)
The pill turned badly didn’t enter lungs as shot placement/angle was that way

& ended up in the gut lining without even penetrating that

I can show numerous other failures in this .510 line but some I can’t as it’s hard to show from lost critters lol ( yes multiple have been lost & one that the hammerboys are definitely aware of yet broadcast this & yes I took that up with them numerous times over many months yet silence or words of “ not many people will see it “ )



Now hammer has some good pills but DG especially in .510 cal they are not imo
Just simple facts that testing soon sorted out contrary to what is written by them in first pic .
yes I don’t test one off I’m a multiple critter multiple angles multiple resistances type of person who thinks that’s the correct way to do things but ea to their own & here’s the good of this pill so one can make their own choices of good or bad or if as I put it if one likes a bingo raffle go ahead & use

As

When they work they work well it was real good ( the bingo raffle ) as here’s one of those 570 that worked well on a full on south to north shot on around a 1300lb bovine here’s the liver & paunch

The shank recovered in neck region of bovine & perfect straight line penetration & here’s the beautiful shank

Overall That’s where alloys & design come into play & why the raptors in these big calibers is simply the better option imo but ea to one’s own belief

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday Franzmdavis

Could that negatively affect its flight trajectory or stability?

Yes & No the wax or other substances that have been used

First the NO
have not effected the pill negatively in any way on the ones that it showed positive effects on everything from a in flight stability
This has been tested pretty extensively by some mates & others who are very good longrange shooters as I’m definitely not a bug hole guy

Now to the YES & terminally

On some brands like raptors or hammers HHT the added hydraulic media like beeswax has caused issues
On the raptors the pill just blew the petals /blades off to quickly & gave lesser results than how they were prior to adding the hydraulic medium so leave well alone is my advice on them
Hht that creates a real rounded meplat on the shank & basically gave like round nose solid performance & those also killed @ a lesser level than leaving alone & petals behaved extremely poorly

But on the whole like Barnes tsx&ttsx hammer hh,ah Sierra hpbt etc the level of killing efficiency/effectiveness was increased & why when you get what hunter-habib put up is a pneumatic problem that exhibited in his shown Barnes
This is seen more as velocity’s get lower but also have seen @ some pretty high velocity

Tested this theory on some pretty substantial critter numbers & it’s chalk & cheese but one that I think it easier put as if you want consistency in the likes of that Barnes above wax or like has proven to be the way forward if you want it to reliably open & the added benefit is the hydraulic reaction in the critter
That is one that needs a little more delving into to understand that ( hydraulic )

not trying too talk down to you or anyone as not understanding this but it’s one I’m only gaining insight on how important it is to go to next level so please accept my apologies in advance as it’s a huge subject & one that has a lot in it & I think I’ve dribbled enough for now but gladly delve deeper so we can all learn more & myself included as I’m still learning but a solid base / foundation has been established

Hopefully I’m clear if not please ask

Cheers

 

[franzfmdavis]

Gday Franzmdavis

Yes & No the wax or other substances that have been used

First the NO
have not effected the pill negatively in any way on the ones that it showed positive effects on everything from a in flight stability
This has been tested pretty extensively by some mates & others who are very good longrange shooters as I’m definitely not a bug hole guy

Now to the YES & terminally

On some brands like raptors or hammers HHT the added hydraulic media like beeswax has caused issues
On the raptors the pill just blew the petals /blades off to quickly & gave lesser results than how they were prior to adding the hydraulic medium so leave well alone is my advice on them
Hht that creates a real rounded meplat on the shank & basically gave like round nose solid performance & those also killed @ a lesser level than leaving alone & petals behaved extremely poorly

But on the whole like Barnes tsx&ttsx hammer hh,ah Sierra hpbt etc the level of killing efficiency/effectiveness was increased & why when you get what hunter-habib put up is a pneumatic problem that exhibited in his shown Barnes
This is seen more as velocity’s get lower but also have seen @ some pretty high velocity

Tested this theory on some pretty substantial critter numbers & it’s chalk & cheese but one that I think it easier put as if you want consistency in the likes of that Barnes above wax or like has proven to be the way forward if you want it to reliably open & the added benefit is the hydraulic reaction in the critter
That is one that needs a little more delving into to understand that ( hydraulic )

not trying too talk down to you or anyone as not understanding this but it’s one I’m only gaining insight on how important it is to go to next level so please accept my apologies in advance as it’s a huge subject & one that has a lot in it & I think I’ve dribbled enough for now but gladly delve deeper so we can all learn more & myself included as I’m still learning but a solid base / foundation has been established

Hopefully I’m clear if not please ask

Cheers

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Do you happen to have any pictures of the bullet with the added wax? Im just curious if you are filling up the cavity or just putting in a bit? It is certainly an interesting solution and reminiscent of the little red rubber tip they put in certain .380 defensive hollow point rounds to ensure expansion:

 

[sgt_zim]

Could that negatively affect its flight trajectory or stability?

On any shot from the muzzle out to 100 yards, assuming a 100 yd zero, there's less than an inch difference in trajectory between a 500 NE and a 204 Ruger. That isn't something to be remotely concerned about for a DG cartridge.

I'm pretty anal when it comes to reloading for my 308 Win and my 280 AI. My 404 Jeffery, 2MOA is plenty good - that's 1" groups from 50 yards and stacking bullets at 25 yards.

Considering the purpose for a 500 NE, I wouldn't even be bothered if the best I could do was 4 MOA - that's still minute of boiler room on a buffalo from 100 yards. And if you end up having to put one in his noggin, that'll be from between 5 and 25 yards. If you miss dotting his eyes from that distance, that's you, not your ammo. I say that not to disparage hunters who miss the mark at that distance, only to get folks to understand even 4 or 5 MOA is quite precise for short range shooting, and that the hunter should go to the field confident in his kit.

Fine precision in groups with small extreme spreads and low standard deviations just don't make any difference at DG distances with doubles, and barely do with any of the caliber .4xx or .5xx magazine rifles.

If you're taking 1 gun to do double duty for PG and for DG, and it's in caliber .366/.375/.416, yeah, you probably do at least want about 1.5 MOA, but I still wouldn't get hung up on either ES or SD - even an ES of 60 or 80 fps and an SD of 25 or 30 makes no practical difference in trajectory out to 250 or 300 yards.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Gday hunter habib

I can’t emphasise enough that above is not a good option well imo as I won’t accept failures like this pill exhibits

Numerous bovine lost with this pill & the description on this part should start ringing some bells take note of the reference to “ penetrating as well as any solid “ that is simply untrue yet sounds good to the new comer
View attachment 693761

Yes I don’t believe it & seen why as they have yes report these types of pills on “any “ is giving a individual false information

So let’s delve a little deeper & see if I’m just too anal or have some merit in my position of good vrs bad regardless of brand yes I don’t just like dead critters but hate lost ones more

I had the 2 hammerboys & their gunsmith out to Aussie on testing over for about 3 weeks (10 day testing approx & I’ll have to confirm off my notes that over 140 critters were taken ) on top of what I was also doing @ the time on hammerbullets & showed numerous failures yet the stuff like above is broadcast without concern of the critter or fellow man

So I wonder how these go on an elephant let alone more bovines ???? Hmmm I think not a good idea & wouldn’t even attempt as

Here’s one of the hammer 570 SH pill my son & mate found View attachment 693772

after loosing their first bovine my mate hit on a nice broadside shot that it staggered & fell her then while the next was taken along a touch further the first was back up & went into thick cover before they got back to her ( later done grid pattern to confirm no dead critter over many acres plus no bird activity on following days ) & only reason this one in pictures was recovered as the pill on impacting the rib gave enough spine damage from rib being forced inwards to spine that it crippled her
View attachment 693768( she was shot in head on 2nd shot with a 375)
The pill turned badly didn’t enter lungs as shot placement/angle was that way
View attachment 693769& ended up in the gut lining without even penetrating that
View attachment 693766View attachment 693767

I can show numerous other failures in this .510 line but some I can’t as it’s hard to show from lost critters lol ( yes multiple have been lost & one that the hammerboys are definitely aware of yet broadcast this & yes I took that up with them numerous times over many months yet silence or words of “ not many people will see it “ )



Now hammer has some good pills but DG especially in .510 cal they are not imo
Just simple facts that testing soon sorted out contrary to what is written by them in first pic .
yes I don’t test one off I’m a multiple critter multiple angles multiple resistances type of person who thinks that’s the correct way to do things but ea to their own & here’s the good of this pill so one can make their own choices of good or bad or if as I put it if one likes a bingo raffle go ahead & use

As

When they work they work well it was real good ( the bingo raffle ) as here’s one of those 570 that worked well on a full on south to north shot on around a 1300lb bovine here’s the liver & paunch
View attachment 693763View attachment 693771
The shank recovered in neck region of bovine & perfect straight line penetration & here’s the beautiful shank View attachment 693765


Overall That’s where alloys & design come into play & why the raptors in these big calibers is simply the better option imo but ea to one’s own belief

Cheers

Good day, @Fordy

Good heavens ! Thank you so much for warning us about that. Now that you mention it, a video did surface a few weeks ago about Mr. Tim Sundles (owner of Buffalo Bore Ammunition) attempting to hunt a Cape buffalo with a .600 Nitro Express that was loaded with Buffalo Bore ammunition (900Gr Shock Hammers at a velocity of 1950 FPS). The bull took several shots (seven or eight if my memory serves me correctly) before going down (finally being dropped not with the Hammer bullet but rather with Buffalo Bore’s 900Gr Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid loading). While no postmortem was conducted in the video, based upon your excellent field assessments… I’m now beginning to wonder if Mr. Sundles was experiencing bullet failure with the 900Gr Shock Hammers.

 

[Green Chile]

I would have no concerns with DGX or DGS loaded to proper velocities...about 2150 in the double.

 

[ftrovato]

What is you recipe if I may ask, or are they factory?

I'll pull out the loading info tomorrow for what I shoot and provide you with the details.

The load I shoot is right out of the Swift Reloading Manual.

 

[Pondoro]

The factory Hornady DGX bonded ammo give an average of 2170fps in my .470 Krieghoff (23.5" barrels). I used it last year on a buffalo hunt in RSA..shot a big old bull in the lungs at 25 meters..the animal did not manage to move...got a follow up shot with the left barrel, Hornady DGS solid (heartshot). The buffalo went down instantly..death bellow..and died.

The post mortem showed that the DGX made pulp of both lungs..the follow up took him in the heart...the latter shot was really unneccesary but you shoot until they go down.

Both DGX and DGS regulate well in my rifle. I will use the DGX if any more buffalo hunt.

 

[Fordy]

Gday franzfmdavis

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

Do you happen to have any pictures of the bullet with the added wax? Im just curious if you are filling up the cavity or just putting in a bit? It is certainly an interesting solution and reminiscent of the little red rubber tip they put in certain .380 defensive hollow point rounds to ensure expansion:


View attachment 693794

Those look pretty cool & never seen those so thanks for sharing them

Filling up the hp cavity has shown to be the best for consistency & full hydraulic effect

Once I get back home I’ll get a picture of the pills & a couple of things that I use but got mates using other systems like oils with a cap of ivory soap or some food grade silicon & few others I can’t remember @ moment sorry so the jury still someway out on the best /easiest system but one that the various hydraulic mediums are showing a improvement on the pill’s ability to preform under more variables ( excluding the ones i mentioned previously)

Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday hunter habib

Good day, @Fordy

Good heavens ! Thank you so much for warning us about that. Now that you mention it, a video did surface a few weeks ago about Mr. Tim Sundles (owner of Buffalo Bore Ammunition) attempting to hunt a Cape buffalo with a .600 Nitro Express that was loaded with Buffalo Bore ammunition (900Gr Shock Hammers at a velocity of 1950 FPS). The bull took several shots (seven or eight if my memory serves me correctly) before going down (finally being dropped not with the Hammer bullet but rather with Buffalo Bore’s 900Gr Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solid loading). While no postmortem was conducted in the video, based upon your excellent field assessments… I’m now beginning to wonder if Mr. Sundles was experiencing bullet failure with the 900Gr Shock Hammers.

Yep good heavens about sums it up although I’ve had a few more stern words than those on standing over many a carcass with those guys but I also praised when pills covered bases well( as I done throughout my testing quite a few hammer calibers & pills probably 10 calibers & I don’t know how many different weights in those caliber lines ) & one pill on that trip was extremely good but nothing in the big bore & they had a lot of homework to do before anything should’ve been released off the results that were obtained on that trip alone , yes DG should be tested thoroughly imo not just looks about right & good to go


I’ve not seen that video but could you direct me to it for a bit of a look & see please as sounds like a similar issue from the sounds of it

Basically critter reactions have shown pill issues with these big bores & that sometimes is not the pill’s fault it’s us using it outside it’s working capability ( not had very much experience above 500 Jeffery as they are just too much fun for me ) but when you see regardless of brand a 375 showing more reactions & better results on similar placed shots you know somethings up & overall why it’s so important to do autopsies & repartition to make sure the pills requirements are covering what they should be able to do

Basically these big bores should be problem solvers not creators imo so choose pills wisely is my advice

Cheers

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Gday hunter habib

Yep good heavens about sums it up although I’ve had a few more stern words than those on standing over many a carcass with those guys but I also praised when pills covered bases well( as I done throughout my testing quite a few hammer calibers & pills probably 10 calibers & I don’t know how many different weights in those caliber lines ) & one pill on that trip was extremely good but nothing in the big bore & they had a lot of homework to do before anything should’ve been released off the results that were obtained on that trip alone , yes DG should be tested thoroughly imo not just looks about right & good to go


I’ve not seen that video but could you direct me to it for a bit of a look & see please as sounds like a similar issue from the sounds of it

Basically critter reactions have shown pill issues with these big bores & that sometimes is not the pill’s fault it’s us using it outside it’s working capability ( not had very much experience above 500 Jeffery as they are just too much fun for me ) but when you see regardless of brand a 375 showing more reactions & better results on similar placed shots you know somethings up & overall why it’s so important to do autopsies & repartition to make sure the pills requirements are covering what they should be able to do

Basically these big bores should be problem solvers not creators imo so choose pills wisely is my advice

Cheers

Here you are.

Thread 'Tim Sundles 4 shots of 600 NE into Buff'

May 18, 2025

In the video below, Tim Sundles (owner of Buffalobore ammo) shot a Cape Buffalo 4 times with a 600 NE and it did not phase it. That's very concerning and also odd. I've seen videos where people have shot buff with 375, 416 and 458 and it knocks them down, they stumble, take off running and collapse. The 600 had no "shock effect" on the buff. Is this common or is it possible that too big a round and too slow a round does not create the same shock effect on buff that a 378 WBY or 416 RUM would? Should a higher velocity round with more expansion be used for the first one or two shots on...

• Carnivore hunter
• Replies: 114
• Forum: .375 & up

• 
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[ftrovato]

What is you recipe if I may ask, or are they factory?

The Load I'm using & sharing is out of the Swift II Reloading Manual.

Naturally I worked up to the listed powder charge insuring that I would not show any signs of pressure.

500 Nitro Express
Hornady Brass.
Federal 215 Magnum Primers.
Swift A-Frame 570 Bullets.
H4350 @ 105 Grains.
Velocity (my chronograph at 70 degrees Fahrenheit is 2140 fps +/- 20 fps)

More velocity that I suspect is needed. However they regulate very well at 25 and 50 yards.

AND I acquired several Federal cartridges loaded with Woodleigh Hydro 570 grain Solids that
shoot exactly to the same location at 25 & 50 yards so I didn't back the powder charge down.

 

[Fordy]

Gday hunter habib
Thankyou for the link
Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday Franzfmdavis
Here’s how some of the pills I have done turn out & a couple of the homemade improvised tools I use to get the wax in the hp cavity without air bubbles being present ( melting of wax & slightly warming pills is also done @ application time )

Cheers

 

[franzfmdavis]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to share their knowledge!