All things being equal what choice of bullet would you use in a BOLT GUN?? Flat or round nose??
Currently nearly 91% of you choose a Flat Nose. This is quite a change since the days I was involved in what I call the "Bullet Wars". There had been a smattering of folks before me that would advocate for the FN Solids over the RN, before 2006-2007. In those days it would have been the opposite, you would have had 90% Round Nose. I became heavily involved 2006-2007 and I was called all sorts of names then, accused of "blasphemy" speaking against the RN Solids...... Accused of being in the bullet business, attacked and accused of insane things daily. My test methods were attacked, I was attacked, and I called them the "RN Woodleigh Cult"....... "RN have been used the last 100 years, killed 100s of elephants, no need for anything else"........... "I don't like the looks of FN loaded in my traditional Double rifles, nostalgia"......... and it went on and on for several years.
Then over time, they learned that the FN Solids indeed were superior in straight line penetration and depth of penetration, they also learned that FN hit hard up front as well. Then the NEW line was "FN Solids are too good, they will exit and hit other animals, we should not use them"......... Yes, the Woodleigh RN Cult was alive and well for years, and fought tooth and nail to keep the old inferior RN alive and kicking............
I used to keep field reports on multiple failures of RN Solids in the field, they were numerous, and I probably still have many of those somewhere in a file. I remember many a RN turning and veering off course in elephant heads, missing the brain by a wide margin, I remember some reports of turning 90 degrees and exiting before it could reach vitals. I remember reports on rear shots on buffalo and exiting 90 degrees in the stomach and many many more. I actually experienced myself some round nose solids turning and exiting 90 degrees on eland and zebra in some experimental work I did in 2006 with .500 caliber prototype cartridges. When I returned, we went to work to test and design proper Flat Nose Solids....... in the end, it turned out to be the CEB #13 Solid you are shooting today...... North Fork followed closely (We were also working with NF at the time on many projects) and their solid is very similiar to the CEB #13, I think it is 12 or 12.5 degrees instead of 13. And it might have a slight edge on depth of penetration by a couple of percentage points as well. The #13 has a 67% meplat of Caliber, the North Fork has 68% meplat of Caliber. 65% is required for terminal stability. Before we reached our end goal, there were literally 100s of prototypes tested, so were very good, and designed very closely with the Barnes Banded Solid, I had great experiences with it in 458s from 2005, both test work and in the field. As we progressed through many different designs, we ended up finishing with the #13 and the NF version, and as far as I can tell today, they are still top end, nothing really can match the depth and stability as of yet.
I hear much about "Feed/Function"......... yes, this is true as well. I shoot nothing but Winchester M70 Control feed guns, end of story. The Winchester M70 will feed up to 68% meplat of caliber 100% of the time....... go above 68% to 70-72% meplat and you start having issues. Also above 70% meplat you start to effect your depth of penetration...... but not stability of course.
The Barnes original FN Solids were all 65-66% meplat of caliber, nose profile was good, no real major issues there. It would feed in Winchester M70s 100%..........In the beginning, Barnes Touted the FN Solid as the best thing since sliced bread was invented, and RN could be eliminated from existence, RN was inferior in every way and useless, this is from Barnes in 2005........ I would concur with most of that at the time.
Then later, some model rifles was having issues feed and function....... I don't remember what year exactly, but Barnes committed a Tresonous Act, they became traitors to Superior Terminal Performance and proclaimed that FN Solids were not that good, that RN had been used for many years with success and they went back to the RN in many calibers........??? WTF??? This was because they could sell Round Nose bullets to the people who had inferior designed rifles, END OF STORY, and I went to war with them over it. Some well know writers and PHs that were paid by Barnes repeated the BS...... I called them out, and called them what they are.
Hornady is no better, the meplat size on their so called DGS is smaller than optimum..... most around 55% or so of caliber, also so they will feed/function in those same inferior rifles. In 458 caliber the DGS is hit and miss concerning stability, when you get to .510 caliber they are not so bad, caliber matters, and the meplat is large enough at .510 caliber to be somewhat stable.
Guys, don't sacrifice bullet performance because your rifle won't feed a properly designed bullet. Send your rifle to the gunsmith and demand that he works it until it does feed 100% with a 65%-68% meplat solid. If he can't do that, find another gunsmith that can....... They can do it, most are just too damned lazy... Send Dummy rounds with your gun as well. Don't get pissed off because I referred to some rifles as inferior, I freely admit that I am a Winchester M70 Control Feed Bolt guy, I refuse to even consider going to the field with anything else, and I don't give a damn if the fancy bolt gun cost $20,000.00 or whatever, if it don't say Winchester M70 on it I want no part of it, so everything that is made is inferior to me, regardless. If you mad and upset, oh well...... get over it, and send it to a good gunsmith that can sort it out. Or, just disregard my comments and move on, do as you please and use what you want. I am trying to help you, if you don't want it, fine.
And here we are once again misunderstanding some solid designs.........
Deep Diving Consistent Stability takes two things..... #1 Meplat Size and #2 Nose Profile....... Bullets that I know meet this criteria are listed below.......These bullets are designed to be the deepest penetrating solids made today, and are inheriently designed to be stable for 100% of that depth of penetration. The very best Nose Profile is the CEB and The North Fork........... followed just behind by the Barnes Flat Nose solid. All these have 65% meplat, 67% meplat and 68% meplat of caliber.
Limited Penetration Solids.......... North Fork CPS, Woodleigh Hydro, and Lehigh Extremes. All of these bullets are designed to cause more trauma inflicted up front and during terminal penetration than the deep diving Solids. And each of them perform this task well. They do not have the depth of penetration of the deep divers and cannot be relied upon to give the total penetration sometimes required by a deep diver. They also cannot bust bone, bust trees, bust brush, and continue to target as reliable as the Deep Diving Solids. They also do not produce more trauma than most expanding/or trauma inflicting bullets, but they penetrate deeper than both. They are inbetween the two. And serve a specific purpose.
I see the Lehigh Mentioned, and it is an extremely interesting bullet, but it should be considered more to the side of trauma inflicting than penetration. They penetrate deeper than any conventional Expanding Premium, Swift, Barnes, North Fork............ They move fluids away from center, disrupting tissue along the wound channel and are very effective at it. The first of its kind I used in 2007 for buffalo, the original design was by JD Jones, and JD had some made for me in .500 caliber at 450 grains. They were effective on buffalo no doubt, but those were no where near as radical as todays Lehigh Extremes, which I commend them on the current design. I promise you if I were not retired from buffalo hunting, I would use these Lehigh Extremes for first shots on buffalo, followed by deep divers..... CEB #13s most likely, I covet my North Fork Solids... LOL
In .458 caliber Lehigh makes a 225, 250, and 325 gr Lehigh Extreme. All of them, even the 225 gr bullet is Buffalo Capable, giving penetration of 26 inches in my test medium... Yes, 225 and 250s, buffalo capable. In that same medium, a 500 Gr Swift A Frame at 2275 fps in 458 Lott gives 24 inches of total penetration! So yes, without doubt I would take them to the field in 458, and I would probably go with the 325s, but i might test the lesser ones for sure..........
Last Fall I ended up loading some 250 Lehighs for a friend of mine, POI was close to his 250 Raptor load he was going to use on Elk. His intentions were bison as well, in which he was successful on bison with the 250 Lehigh, it was one shot, DRT on the spot, no bullet recovered.....
The problem with the Lehighs I would think is getting a Solid POI match, that might take some effort, but I believe it could be done.....
But I believe the point of this thread is not the Limited Penetration Solids, it is the Deep Diving High Stability Solids that should be looked at..........
