Flat point VS Round nose solids

[One Day...]

We truly agree on a lot of things...

Believe it or not, I actually "liked" your two posts

Before I retired from hunting, I would fire from 300-500 rounds through the rifles I was planning to work with as normal operating preparing all aspects of the rifle, sights, bullet. Every session would involve full magazine, and full operation of the bolt or other mechanisms to make sure everything was in order.

It is astounding to me that a hunter would go to the field and the first time he tries his rifle is when he arrives in camp? I truly would have never in my life thought such was possible. But it is indeed true, that on occasion a "Goober" will show up and the PH has to sight his rifle in, the The Goober has not shot it, fired it, maybe even purchased his ammo from the Walmart..... maybe even has no idea what bullet he is shooting, or is being shot in his rifle......... But Goober paid his money, so the PH is stuck.

In a case like this, it just plain does not matter anyway, what bullet or rifle he is shooting or trying to shoot, the PH is going to do his best to show Goober a good time and a big adventure, and if all are lucky none of them will be killed or maimed.

I do not speak to Goobers. I speak to hunters, that I would hope would later become shooters. I speak to those that desire to learn and prepare for their adventure, and to take the best most reliable equipment and bullet tech available. I speak to those that desire to be the best on their endeavor, and that are willing to put in the time and effort to be successful. Goobers are just of no consequence and I refuse to waste time on them. Goober really does not belong in the field, and is an embarrassment to real hunters, and even more so to shooters. A lack of good genetics I suppose.

A shooter will make sure his rifle will feed and function with the best bullet tech for the mission at hand, regardless of whether its a $500 rifle or a $20,000 Rifle. A shooter will spend the time on the range testing all aspects of his equipment, he will know his bullet and how it performs, its limitations, and what can be expected of it. He will become familiar with his rifle, he will learn to shoot it effectively and efficiently. A shooter will have put the time and effort in to attempt to identify any issues ahead of time. A shooter once in the field, even if he experiences an issue unforeseen will have the ability to overcome the issue and complete the mission at hand.

Don't be a Goober...................

Thank you, you are making exactly my point: check that the equipment that you intend to use works. Your post is much longer than my original bottom-line recommendation: 'don't assume it, try it', but I am happy to see that we agree

No, that is just not exactly true.......... There is a big difference between "Will do just Fine" and
"It Can"........... I concede only that in the very best of circumstances that a TSX "Can", I also stated that I had .224 caliber bullets that "Can"......... I also stated I had tested a 420 Cast Performance on an elephant head and it did, but just barely, and did not even exit side brain....... Can means possible, and many things are possible and many things would qualify as an Anomaly and far from the normal.
You misrepresent my statement. And, on my part, I should have stated as well, that "It Can under some perfect circumstances", I left you too much room to play word salad. My faul

The problem dear fellow is a simple matter of "Penetration".......... one is not always presented the "Perfect Shot" No expanding premium bullet, No 1st Generation or even 2cd Generation Trauma Inflicting CNC bullet can be counted on to get the amount of penetration and bone crunching that may be required on elephant. 1st and 2cd Gen CNC Trauma bullets such as Hammers, Maximus and Raptors nearly double the penetration in animal tissue over a TSX, but I personally would not count on that when life and limb might be on the line. Yes, I repeat over and over, it is Absurd to even consider this on elephant. However, if YOU believe in this concept, you may very well get away with it on your next elephant...... Especially considering your PH will take care of things if the S**T hits the fan, your PH will be loaded with SOLIDS..........

And, lets take a closer look at "Your Emerging Evidence from Professional Culling and sport hunting" Statement.........

I have hesitated writing this.

Recently 12 big bull elephant had to be destroyed, they had been badly burned in a fire.

A expertt PH was chosen to do the job. Caliber .458Lott bullet Barnes TSX all brain shots. Front or side shot one shot kills

I briefed through this thread and I did not find anymore information concerning this statement or shedding any light on the circumstances of it. I am quite sure that "Badly Burned" called for some emergency proceedures to dispatch, I can imagine all sorts of possibilities here as to bullet choices in an emergency situation, even to the possible point of using what you have with you? Or other possible scenarios, since nothing was explained further. I saw zero mention of "Sport Hunters" using TSX for elephant, and I saw no PH's that recommended using TSX on elephant. Now, I could have missed that somewhere, as stated I only briefed, if I did not see elephant, I did not give the post much concern......

I can most certianly guarantee you that I myself have zero issues with calling out a PH that would recomment a Goober Client to use Barnes TSX, or any other expanding premium exclusively for elephant.... Yes I absolutely would and I would do it to his face as well......... PH.... Professional Hunter........ Any thing else is assumed only by the inexperienced shooters. Oh yes, I would have no qualms at all. I would say to their face....... "Absurd".........

But here is where you mislead once again in attempt to achieve your goals for using TSX.........

Here is what Lon at Tokoloshe said in the only other post I saw him make on this matter, in that thread...................

I hesitated mentioning, because Itcertainly would not be a practice I would recommend. Note, I was not present.
I repeat....... "Because it certainly would not be a practice I would recommend"

No experienced Elephant hunting PH would make that recommendation, end of story......

There is "No emerging Evidence"....... there is no recommendations made..........

You speak of double lung shot.... as I understand elephant lungs are attached, they do not collaspe when you poke holes in them. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this to be true. A poke with a TSX is not going to be quite as devasting as you might think. And a poke through the lungs is not like a poke in the heart......... a lung shot elephant can do a lot of damage before giving up. I know this, as I have experienced it on one particular elephant. It was a mistake on my part, an angled shot that I thought would hit the heart, but I only caught the lungs. I ended up dispatching that elephant at the end of the barrel while on my back, pointed up into the chest of the elephant.... a 500 gr 500 caliber #13 Solid at 2400 fps busted the heart on that elephant, and I was just lucky he turned 90degrees before coming down.

This is what a proper designed FN Solid does to the heart......

The last elephant I shot in 2013 was another heart shot..... this was a nice bull elephant, we had made our way to 12 steps in front of him without being winded or seen, on one knee I was setting up for the perfect frontal brain shot, when the wind shifted and he started running from left to right in front of me, I dropped to the heart shot and was able to get two rounds off before he disappeared in the brush, we found him 25 yards in down and out. This was a 458 B&M 18 inch gun shooting a 450 gr CEB #13 Solid at 2200 fps, it fully penetrated and exited.

This elephant was a crop raider, and the second one taken on this trip. This was 2007, The first elephant was a classic Frontal Brain shot, and it was down and over executed properly. The second elephant was in the bottom of a dry river bed, about 25-30 yards out. Now, keep in mind, this is night time, it is dark..... The two PHs that are with me have a early Gen 1 or 2 night vision, they are doing the hunting. I am the shooter, I did not want the night vision to interfere with my vision when the lights came on....... they are directing me to where the elephants are, there are about 4-5 there. They tell me the location and how it is standing, when the light comes on, I have about 2 seconds to find my target and get the shot off. Lights come on, I find the target, presented only a heart shot, so I take it..... I am shooting a 50 B&M and a 510 gr JD/Lehigh Custom FN Solid at 2100 fps, at the first shot the elephant nearly goes down on his knees, but gathers himself up and I am looking to the rear of the elephant, I have about a 4-5 foot elevation advantage, so I am lookind down on him as he is running away, second shot goes in the top of the back and downward to the chest (next day after retrieving the heart we found two bullet holes, one from the angled side shot and the other from the rear, which would have been the second shot fired) The third shot hit another foot to the rear, this bullet was found in the chest cavity after traveling 7+ feet of elephant. The first shot of course exited, hitting the heart from the side, the second shot fired also exited the frontal chest after traveling 6+ feet or so and blowing a hole through the heart from the rear.........

This elephant only went about 30-40 yards before going down for good...........I have only brain shot two of my elephants, the rest were heart with the exception of one elephant I had to play backup to my friend with. We were close, around 12-15 steps, he tried frontal brain and missed, I stepped up from behind him and by that time the elephant had turned completely and I was looking at the root of his tail, I had read that this shot would take an elephant down, just up about 6 inches maybe more and it was spine, I took the shot and the elephant immediately dropped and I let my friend finish it from there.

In earlier years I had shot a few elephant all with Round Nose Barnes Solids....... Yes, they were, and they are still dead, but there is a big difference in RN and FN doing damage and hitting hard up front, RN does very little of either...... Poking holes is about all.

I actually agree with your post, but I think that you misunderstand mine. I am not opposed to FN solids, I actually use them (Barnes banded solid flat nose to be specific, because I use their loaded ammo in both .470 and .458 Lott)

And I actually said in my original post that there is convincing evidence of superior penetration in favor of truncated nose bullets. Clearly we agree on this

But I never said that PHs recommend TSX on elephant, I said that there is evidence that indicates that TSX penetrate reliably an elephant skull, including from frontal shots. This is factual, this is Lon's report. Objectively, you are putting in my mouth words I did not use

Lon's report is factual, he states what happened, I believe him and I certainly never said that he recommends it. I was just looking at the fact: actual field experience shows that a TSX will brain an elephant. That is all

I am with you as to the likely reason why this was done My own experience with PHs in Zim is that they use what they have, and quite often what they have is what clients left with them after a hunt. It was likely not a deliberate choice (unless that specific PH wanted to experiment, which is also a possibility) but more probably out of necessity. But the bottom-line stands: the TSX penetrate on frontal brain shots. Neither the facts, nor that PH, nor Lon, nor I say that it is the best for the job, but clearly it does the job.

Note: the sport hunter is a guy I know who intended to only take body shots and ended up braining a tuskless cow with a TSX.

@One Day... On this point we are in full agreement 100%. It is foolish to consider only a brain shot, and comes more from "Nostalgia" and over reading African Books. I have only shot 10 elephant, only two of those were brain shots, one side brain and one frontal. My son took an elephant with a side brain. The rest have been heart shots, with an exception or two....... One should take the shot given at the moment. A heart shot elephant will not go far, especially with a proper designed FN Solid.

I am glad to see that we agree on this

This puts us together in a minority it seems, but a realistic minority I would argue


In summary...

Premise #1: It seems that it is not unreasonable to expect that a TSX that will go lengthwise through a Buffalo after crushing either shoulder or hip, will also go sidewise through the vitals of an elephant on a behind-the-shoulder double-lung / heart shot. This is just physics.​

​

Premise #2: It also seems that it is not unreasonable to expect that in doing so it will create more trauma with its deployed petals than a solid, even a FN solid. This is just physics.​

Whether a FN solid will do it is not in question, and it is not THE question, what is discussed here is whether a TSX will do it. You clearly prefer a FN solid to do this. This is absolutely fine with me, and this puts you, this time, in a comfortable majority. Great!

I am not attacking the FN solid, I have one in the second barrel, or a few in the magazine, because I agree that they are a better choice for follow up shots with angles that are completely unpredictable, but I see a rationale for a TSX on a first calm, deliberate behind-the-shoulder double-lung / heart shot. And this does indeed put me in a very tiny minority, if not entirely alone , but this is absolutely fine with me too.

After all, if a few of us did not try new things as technology evolves, I guess that we would still all be shooting cup & core "full patch" bullets

Thank you for the conversation, you are on very solid conventional ground. Whether I am an early adopter, only time will tell. The analytic logic withstood the test of reality with Buffalo, we shall see with Elephant..............................................................................

 

[Flewis]

I could tell you agreed by the way you insulted the 2 posters that disagreed with your post. Nice try though.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Brilliant, I’m glad it ended up with a good home! Was a nice and unusual lot. I think Henry Kranks have Bertram cases in 505 Gibbs

Im sat on a supply of some 70 gibbs cases ATM. I may add to that as time passes. I think I have around 50 norma then a load of Bertram. I love using it and have got to the point where I dont have a headache after 4 rounds

 

[Altitude sickness]

I only have one tuskless kill but she was a large cow and the .505 Gibbs using .525 gr CEB no.13 dropped her in her tracks. She tipped over sideways.

I was in a creek and she was up on the bank. The ground was perhaps 7-8’ above the ground I was standing on. I was going for the side brain. My PH whispered to shoot for the heart.


She was broadside and uphill. The bullet passed through the heart and the off shoulder.

The picture with the cruiser is taken from my shooting position and the cow is in the brush behind the truck 20-25 yards from my shooting position

The CEB solid hit the chest with a devastating impact.

The insurance shot was in the front of the chest after the eyeball touch confirmed she was dead.

 

[AZDAVE]

You will be well served by any of the flat point solids. Just ensure they feed correctly and go have a good hunt.

 

[SRvet]

I love using it and have got to the point where I dont have a headache after 4 rounds

Oh God!! I guess that must be progress then

 

[One Day...]

I could tell you agreed by the way you insulted the 2 posters that disagreed with your post. Nice try though.

"They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind" (Bible, Book of Hosea, chapter 8, verse 7)

We all can disagree with each others all we want, and argue our points, often passionately, and those with the better points often convince others, but there is no room on AH for the name calling, it is not what AH is all about. Those who call others stupid should expect to be confronted, those who lay challenges should expect to see their challenges answered, and those who willfully distort others' statements should expect to be corrected. These are the insulting behaviors, not the response they trigger.

Sorry if my previous post offended you. Objective reading shows that I was the aggressed, not the aggressor... Admittedly, I push back when pushed around... Admittedly too, sometimes possibly too hard...

 

[HACT07]

Flat-nosed bullets are generally preferred as they cut cleaner holes in targets, have less tendency to ricochet, and wound better than round-nosed bullets. Both 9mm and .45 ACP do have factory loadings available with flat-nosed bullets. The reason that so many 9mm and .45 loadings still have round-nosed bullets is that these two cartridges are much older than .40 S&W and there are many older guns that will not function reliably with flat-nosed bullets.

 

[Luvthunt]

Altho in the scheme of things I am a new member it does seem to me that the posts of yesterday were without tinges of scorn or malice.
The sign of today?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

All things being equal what choice of bullet would you use in a BOLT GUN?? Flat or round nose?? I understand some folks have issues with feeding on the flats but is there a notable difference when the target animal is hit?

@norfolk shooter
My Whelen feeds both round nose and flat point solids in a Savage 110 push feed. The flat point shoots in a straight line thru the target and leaves a noticeabley bigger chanel in wet news paper.
Don't know about on game but personally would use the flat point.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm going with Peregrine VRG-2 for buffalo; 307gr .375 H&H and 575gr .500 Sharps. My personal preference is large meplat bullets. This target is 100-yrds with the 375 H&H; +2500 fps. 4279 ft/lbs. It's actually 5-shots not 4.

View attachment 617593View attachment 617594

@Rafiki
How would a Whelen go with 310gn flat point steel core solids at 2,455fps and over 4,000 fpe of muzzle energy on DG
Just asking for a friend.
Me
Bob

 

[BeeMaa]

@Rafiki
How would a Whelen go with 310gn flat point steel core solids at 2,455fps and over 4,000 fpe of muzzle energy on DG
Just asking for a friend.
Me
Bob

You back from holiday or just hook up to some shaky WiFi?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You back from holiday or just hook up to some shaky WiFi?

@BeeMaa
Still in holidays but have some reception so decided to join back in
Did you know that Col Townsend Whelen ( aka god) actually co-designed the humble 22 Hornet as well as the mighty 35.
Bob

 

[Rafiki]

@Rafiki
How would a Whelen go with 310gn flat point steel core solids at 2,455fps and over 4,000 fpe of muzzle energy on DG
Just asking for a friend.
Me
Bob

Dead buffalo

 

[Daniel Cary]

I was just shocked to hear .. "one can actually hear the impact of hydro's on game"

 

[RayAtkinson]

whatever you choose, test them for feed in your gun..flat points kill better or that is my experience, not say RN are bad bullets...they have worked for years..My personal favorite solid was the North Fork cup point, it was a genius bullet, an expanding solid!! sorta!!

 

[wildcatter82]

whatever you choose, test them for feed in your gun..flat points kill better or that is my experience, not say RN are bad bullets...they have worked for years..My personal favorite solid was the North Fork cup point, it was a genius bullet, an expanding solid!! sorta!!

The North Fork CPS is still very much alive and well....and available!

 

[hoytcanon]

They both work... shoot whatever functions and shoots best in yours... and as always, shoot enough gun.

 

[Andrew62]

In 2010 I took a cape buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe, it was the end of the season, early November. After arriving to camp my guide says they have a left over tuskless tag, would I be interested in hunting it for 2K. I was hunting with my .375H&H, using Barnes TSX, 300 grain bullets. An elephant for 2K, absolutely I will hunt it. My first shot was between her eyes, knocked her on her ass, I put three in her chest, she never went 10'. My other 2 elephant hunts I used solids, and moving forward I will use solids on my 2 elephant hunts next year. But in that moment, the TSX did its job beautifully.

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

I prefer properly shaped FP monolithic solids in my current bolt actions for elephants. That preference is based on a relatively shallow experience - 7 elephants. In all cases, both body shots and frontal and side brain shots, the CEB BBW #13s I use have unfailingly penetrated in a straight line, sometimes exiting after several feet. About 50% of these solids have exited.

Calibers include 0.423”, 0.510”, 0.458”. In 2 cases they were fired from a 500 NE 3” DR, while the other 5 were fired from bolt action DGRs in several cartridge chamberings. MVs ranged from 2175 fps to 2500 fps.

As to the OP’s question, my current bolt action DGRs in all cases except one, have had work on both feed rails and ramps to ensure absolute reliability in feeding FP solids. The one which hasn’t caused a momentary hesitation feeding the second shot, the first round out of the magazine. Based on past experience with another DGR using an identical action, I know that the problem is fixable. However, to paraphrase my PH, why not carry a rifle that works every time? He’s right and based on this incident I’ve narrowed my action choice for FP solids for DG.

I like accurate rifles and tight groups on paper - my current bolt action DGRs do that - but utterly reliable dependability in feeding and ejection is the single most important characteristic of a DGR.

Modern FP monolithic solids with properly executed meplats are incomparably superior for very large DG. There are other choices, but they are quite simply not as effective. Even monolithic solids with cup point design deform when they strike heavy elephant bone, based on the 2 such recovered bullets I have on my reloading bench right now. On the other hand, the CEB BBW #13s I’ve recovered are only marked by the engraved rifling.

I recognize that my personal experience using FP solids on large DG is less than others here, but it is the basis for my opinion.