Flat nose vs round nose solids - What are the actual facts?

[Brian]

Very good information on here.

Do any of the members here have experience with Dzombo solids? They are manufactured in SA, and have their origins in the Kruger National Park. Many many elephant and buffalo were, and still are, culled with .308 caliber Dzombos and they are used by a number of KNP rangers and PHs in larger calibers. I’ve had exceptional straight line penetration from them from the 400gr .416 and .411 bullets from a .416 Ruger and .450-.400 3&1/4” on a number of buffalo and giraffe. I’d be interested to know if they have made their way abroad.

Recovered from a wetpack
View attachment 350965

The Mk4 and later Mk6
View attachment 350966

 

[Brian]

I followed Michael's advice and continue to get one shot cape buffalo kills with 375HH, 500 and 577NE. The CEB and NorthFork bullets work exactly as he says, even better. With the solid your bullet will go straight to the heart from any angle if you line it up. The CEB Raptor is awesome with a side shoulder shot. On one hunt I get three DRT buffalos in a row with the 410 gr., .500 cal Raptor at just 1,940 fps. I usually shoot the Raptor first but I consider the CEB or NF CP solid perfect for the first shot too. ( Line it up for the top of the heart. You will be pleased.)

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I am really struggling to find facts and this really bothers me. I have searched the internet and I find conflicting reports and very little scientific data.

So far I have found Charlie Haley's tests of round nose fmj vs round nose monolithics. He give almost identical results in a very scientific test for both types of bullets but unfortunately the only flat nose has small meplat. His results are essentially all the bullets have the same penetration if they have the same impact energy. He also gives penetration figures of 82 cm (8 cm elephant leg bone + 60 cm wet phone book + 14cm pine board) So basically 32 inches of straight line penetration and quite a bit tougher than wet pack alone.

I only found 2 tests that compared flat nose and round nose. One is by Rathcoombe(using other peoples data) and he shows flat nose bullets penetrating slightly less than conventional round nose BUT bullets all penetrating about 30-40 inches (agreeing with Charlie Haley's results more or less). Then I found another test showing penetration of 21 inches straight line for FMJ round nose and triple that for flat nose. Now to put that in perspective, a Woodleigh FMJ will not penetrate straight through a buffalo-side to side ? According to that test data, it would penetrate straight for only 22 inches and then leave the test box in the next 20 inches. So it would penetrate straight to the heart let say and then deviate horribly. Surely hunters out there would notice this kind of erratic performance ?

So my question to everyone - Is a round nose solid that bad ie 1/3 of the penetration ? Or are we talking a 10 % or 20% or even 30% difference ?

I think a really important issue with the difference between the flat nose and round nose is even commencing before the bullet leaves the chamber ..a lot of actions do not feed well with flat nose bullets at all...this will be your first stumbling block in search of functional information in regards to your question.

 

[IvW]

If you look at the shape of the Rhino solids you will see that a good portion of the section that will touch the loading ramp is rounded. If that does not feed a small amount of polishing may solve the issue

 

[baxterb]

I think a really important issue with the difference between the flat nose and round nose is even commencing before the bullet leaves the chamber ..a lot of actions do not feed well with flat nose bullets at all...this will be your first stumbling block in search of functional information in regards to your question.

Yes, this can be tricky, especially as the bullet diameter grows. When the flat nose gets larger as the diameter gets larger, in some actions it can get so large as to be below the feed ramp. When that happens, it won’t even leave the box, no matter how hard you push.

I had crappy feeding in my 9.3 and Echols and I (mostly Echols) worked on it until it fed everything I threw at it like grease through a goose. I’ll use north fork solids and softs, but we also fed Barnes, woodleigh, and Nosler and they all work perfectly. That said, it’s not always possible and getting the round on the chamber should always be first priority.

 

[Nhoro]

I think a really important issue with the difference between the flat nose and round nose is even commencing before the bullet leaves the chamber ..a lot of actions do not feed well with flat nose bullets at all...this will be your first stumbling block in search of functional information in regards to your question.

Yes- that is exactly what started this thread. Round nose feed in almost any action. Is it worth the bother to get flat nose solids feeding. After this thread i worked on my rifle until it fed flat nosw solids - even loaded backwards. What i did is on another thread. A mauser action was designed with mathematical precision and engineering. Each calibre and case shape has a precise design- magazine box width/ rail shape/feed ramp. I have examined CZ/winchester/FN etc. You will find that very few match all the dimensions calculated by Mr.Mauser. they approximate or average dimensions between 3-4 calibres. So the rifle feeds in the general direction of the chamber. Because of that, round nose or spitzer bullets usually feed because they bounce off the chamber edge and rattle into the chamber.
Military actions were set up with one calibre and usually one bullet type, so they mass produced identical guns- nowadays the produce an average dimension to suit several calibres and then hopefully someone tweaks a few things to get it right.

 

[Nhoro]

I think the stable penetration of a flat nose solid is worth getting your rifle sorted out. But a round nose in the chamber beats a flat nose jammed in the breech !

 

[baxterb]

Yes- that is exactly what started this thread. Round nose feed in almost any action. Is it worth the bother to get flat nose solids feeding. After this thread i worked on my rifle until it fed flat nosw solids - even loaded backwards. What i did is on another thread. A mauser action was designed with mathematical precision and engineering. Each calibre and case shape has a precise design- magazine box width/ rail shape/feed ramp. I have examined CZ/winchester/FN etc. You will find that very few match all the dimensions calculated by Mr.Mauser. they approximate or average dimensions between 3-4 calibres. So the rifle feeds in the general direction of the chamber. Because of that, round nose or spitzer bullets usually feed because they bounce off the chamber edge and rattle into the chamber.
Military actions were set up with one calibre and usually one bullet type, so they mass produced identical guns- nowadays the produce an average dimension to suit several calibres and then hopefully someone tweaks a few things to get it right.

Exactly. I’ve seen a list of the dimensions of the mag boxes for the common calibers and there were at least 27 unique combinations of dimensions. Mauser feeding is not a one size fits all proposition.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

If you think Mauser actions are a challenge , you need to take a look at the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and their actions, being a rotary feed action the rotary plates are a mimic of the round it needs to feed. I experienced this phenomenon when a .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer did not want to feed different bullet profiles ..it really can only feed the bullet profile of it`s rotary plate.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

If you think Mauser actions are a challenge , you need to take a look at the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and their actions, being a rotary feed action the rotary plates are a mimic of the round it needs to feed. I experienced this phenomenon when a .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer did not want to feed different bullet profiles ..it really can only feed the bullet profile of it`s rotary plate.

True 'dat.

The issue is more pronounced on the early models with their proprietary MS cartridges. The M1924 and later models have the added retaining ring 'round the magazine spool which allows for some flexibility with bullet profile and overall length.

If you have a M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910; build your cartridges like these and they'll feed flawlessly:

Here's the 6.5X54 (M1900, M1903, Y1903);

And the 9.5X57 (M1910):

 

[michael458]

a lot of actions do not feed well with flat nose bullets at all..

Ruger and CZ come to mind.......

Mauser feeding is not a one size fits all proposition.

If you think Mauser actions are a challenge , you need to take a look at the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and their actions,

Fortunately I don't concern myself with any of that...... Winchester M70 Control Feed guns feed anything up to 68% Meplat of caliber, regardless of caliber, at least to .500 that I deal with. It takes 65% Meplat to be self stabilizing. I have a few Ruger bolt guns but they are of no consequence and would never go to the field. Other than Winchester M70s I have little use for anything else. I have seen some of these other rifles here, I can't think of one that would feed and function.......

 

[IvW]

All my ZKK actiined rifles feed flawlessly with meplat solids

 

[Mike70560]

Michael458,

I hope all is well with you.

All the testing was a blast. I read through some of the older work when I saw this thread. I still laugh when I think about BBW. Bastard Bullet Works

My CZ feeds all of the flat nose solids without fail.

Here is an oldie but goodie

Bullet testing

 

[michael458]

Michael458,

I hope all is well with you.

Mike ole pal....... Good to hear of you..........All well here, retired from hunting a few years ago, still doing some shooting however...........

HEH.... Yep, BBW............Thats a story for another day......... Sam still around, shot a bear the other day that was raiding his Honey Hives....... We touch base every week.......

We all did a lot of work with todays Solids.............. Was good stuff..................

 

[michael458]

 

[baxterb]

@michael458

great to hear from you Mike. Been a long time since I was at your place slinging solids through 4x4s! I see you are still keeping CEB busy!! Hope everyone well in SC.

 

[michael458]

@michael458

great to hear from you Mike. Been a long time since I was at your place slinging solids through 4x4s! I see you are still keeping CEB busy!! Hope everyone well in SC.

Hi Baxter...... Good to hear of you as well. Its been TOO LONG since your last visit! We would enjoy a visit when you return to the area.

Yes, we try our best to keep CEB making bullets. I just received my last order, 3000 .308 100 FB Raptors and 1000 .451 45 ACP 200 FN Solids. I still have on order 2000 more .224 caliber 50 Raptors. I have been busy the last couple of weeks stuffing 100 FB Raptors in 7.62X40, 300 Winchester and 308 Winchester. Had a few hundred done without Talon Tips for 30/30s......

I have also been loading up serious stuff for the last 6 months, needed some "Shelf Ammo" and most of the big bores have been loaded with SOLIDS of course..... We await the Zombies to invade, figure we will line 10-12 up at a time with each shot...... Cheaper that way........ HEH HEH..........

All good here, thank you. When you get close, come visit.............

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Is that the 470 B&M @michael458 ?

 

[michael458]

Is that the 470 B&M @michael458 ?

475 B&M Super Short ( .474 caliber)............

 

[michael458]