Fair chase hunting

[Cam Moon]

Fcktard

 

[Flint]

Thank you Tundra Tiger.
And for spike.t. For your information. And other. As insulting as NE 7x57.
I live in South Africa. Have hunted open farms. And you would not know. It is land with cattle fence. For 500 miles in any direction.
Since I was ten years of age. Which you will not equal. Not even if you grow to be 600 years of age.
The deceptiveness of the human mind is gigantic.

 

[mark-hunter]

So, now we know something of your background, which is promissing for this discussion
Could you please let us know then, based on your ethics, how would you manage animals that can not be just easily stalked with rifle in hand (or imposibble to stalk), and will require other methods of hunting? (blind, bait, night hunt, traps, green darting from chopper - all this and similar methods are excluded from this topic)
The question is: full planned game managment based on your idea of hunt.

 

[Dudders]

So by your own reasoning is not using a rifle giving you an unfair advantage over your quarry. Should you not have limited your hunting to the use of a stick or a rock.

 

[spike.t]

Fcktard

Hey you stealing my word......but as you put a c in and I don't....won't press charges of copyright infringement...

 

[Hogpatrol]

Thank you Tundra Tiger.
And for spike.t. For your information. And other. As insulting as NE 7x57.
I live in South Africa. Have hunted open farms. And you would not know. It is land with cattle fence. For 500 miles in any direction.
Since I was ten years of age. Which you will not equal. Not even if you grow to be 600 years of age.
The deceptiveness of the human mind is gigantic.

When you've hunted twenty foreign countries from plains to mountains, predators and grazers on five or more continents, get back to us. Compared to other hunters on here, you've hunted nothing, ergo, you know nothing.

 

[BSO Dave]

Quite a sizeable pebble in my shoe.

And stretching to convey this as fairly. And respectfully. As possible.



How could anybody referring to themselves as a hunter, ever warrant killing wild animals while being watered or fed. And being obscured in a hide, only a few metres from such targets, and this “devil feeding” traded for money. With whatever method of killing?

That goes for any wild game animal. Anywhere.



In the country where I reside is it common practise. And without would such operators be much worse off financially.

I regard myself as a true rifle hunter. With. As far as a chance. To fairly shoot a wild animal. On an even playfield. In the bush. Do I have only a very small chance to succeed. But that’s fine. As long as it’s fair. Can and will I live with my conscience.



Videos of hunting from tree stands in North America abound. That as well is no fair chase. In any sense. Although when having more on-site knowledge of this practise may I perhaps even condone this. To some degree. But goodness. It’s at least not slaughtering children while at a dinner table. This as appalling.



Is anyone surprised that the green brigades are up in arms? Can anyone dispute the facts at hand?

I’m getting on in years. Hunted fairly. A lot. But will never agree with this most popular method, for other, of animal murder. In the true sense of the word.

While you certainly have the right to an opinion, your contentions are absurd and certainly not based in common sense or reality. If you are indeed serious with this post, you seem to be confused and morally conflicted. I would suggest that maybe hunting in any form is not for you... Maybe wildlife photography?

 

[Red Leg]

Thank you Tundra Tiger.
And for spike.t. For your information. And other. As insulting as NE 7x57.
I live in South Africa. Have hunted open farms. And you would not know. It is land with cattle fence. For 500 miles in any direction.
Since I was ten years of age. Which you will not equal. Not even if you grow to be 600 years of age.
The deceptiveness of the human mind is gigantic.

Exactly what I surmised - ignorant. Indeed he is arrogantly ignorant.

He has wandered around a farm in South Africa for many years and is certain he has learned everything there is to learn about hunting. So certain is he in his ignorance that he feels justified in criticizing others with just as many or more years, with vastly more experience in many different environments (to include his own) with a host of different game animals.

I would suggest expanding your horizons a bit before being too critical of those who occupy them.

 

[davidhein]

500 miles in any direction... Thats approximately 800km

As a South African, considering end to end of our country if about 1 700 or so km, this is a far stretch. Here is a 500 mile radius circle for reference, would love to know where the "It is land with cattle fence. For 500 miles in any direction." comes from, I have yet to see it myself.

Each to his own - as long as it is done within the law and in an ethical manner. In the Karoo "voorsit" jag is common, in Europe the High Seat, in other parts of the world the tree stand, pit and ground blind, and many more...

 

[Tbitty]

So I really wanted to avoid this post, but the follow-up, double down won't let me hold it in.

@Flint - your posts are incredibly short-sighted and misinformed at best, and completely asinine at worst.

I grew up in middle of nowhere Kansas with (essentially, not literally) low fences for hundreds of miles, too. I'm sure many others here also fit a similar description of background. You are NOT special in that regard, nor does it give you a distinction fitting of such arrogance. Additionally, your hunting "since 10 years of age" claim is equally irrelevant and common among the members of this forum. I'll say it again, you are NOT special or superior to anyone here.

Moreover, what makes rifle hunting a fair chase? The quarry is unarmed and have nothing but their senses and experiences to use. Most are not hunting you. I'd argue that none are conscious that you are hunting them. Use only the tools you can make with your own 2 hands as a weapon, wearing nothing but nature's clothing. Or use only your bare hands to take the lion. Is that fair chase?

Ignoring that concept, as I have no problems with using a rifle to hunt, how do you get close enough to your game to make a clean kill? Are you shooting them inside of 10 yards, or sniping them from 1000 where they'd have no idea of your presence? How are you concealed? Is that different than using a blind you made? And if you can use a gun you didn't make, why can't someone use a blind they purchased already made? How is using a tree stand different than climbing to sit in a tree?

Finally, there is an extremely broad, gray line when it comes to hunting over food/water. Were our ancestors wrong to harvest their sustenance at the easiest location(s) to do so? Should no game ever be taken when it is grazing along the grasslands or forest floors? How far from a water source (stream, river, or pond/tank) must an animal be to consider it to not be going for a drink? Would a crocodile only hunt from on land, and pass on the wildebeest that is just trying to get a drink or cross the river? ... In fairness, I am not a fan of the common baiting practices of North America. Training animals to come to a specific location like clockwork when the feeder goes off does not excite me. But there are times when it is necessary: culling specific animals, population control / resource management, safely and efficiently bringing in dangerous game (like a leopard), etc. I'll acknowledge this topic to be the singular debatable portion of your posts.

Stop trolling a hunting community and forum. Either you made these posts for the attention, or you are truly naieve and need to educate yourself before suggesting a moral supremacy.

 

[Ragman]

I have a HUGE pebble in my shoe and it is people like you. Arrogant, narrow minded people who seem to think the only right way is their way and if they don’t like someone else’s way it’s unethical. Your ego is unbelievable. AND you are 100% WRONG.
Compared to many of the members on this forum I am pretty much minor league when it comes to international hunting. The experiences they have lived is incredible to me. However, I have been hunting in my home province of Saskatchewan, from north to south and east to west, for 40 years. That includes native prairie grasslands and hills, farmland, forest fringe and northern boreal forest. Very successfully for all species. I have hunted nearly every way that is legal here. Have killed game with rifles, muzzleloader, crossbow and bows. Check out Saskatchewan on a map someday, it’s bigger than most countries. I have also hunted Texas once as well as Namibia and South Africa one time each. All spot and stalk.
You will not equal what I’ve done if you live to be 800 years.
That pebble ain’t in your shoe Sir, it’s between your ears.

 

[Nyati]

@Flint , some of us have been around in your beautiful country, one of my favorite places to hunt in RSA is a cattle farm, north of Kimberley, about 22.000 Ha.

Wild game is not managed, but there are seven wells and additional feed for the cattle, some cattle fences inside, and a high fence outside.

I know there are larger cattle farms in the NC, but all need wells to give water to the animals.

500 miles without a fence, impossible.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Don’t know how many times it can be said but “ never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it”. Why waste time on this guy.......,,

 

[VertigoBE]

Although it is very entertaining to read the replies.
I would say: "new/recent and unknown member" + "low post count" * "one blanket post insulting +90% of the members of this forum" = Troll

Do not feed them

 

[Jaegger]

Huh - serious forum thread filled w/ colorful stereotypes & labels OR a disjointed ramble after knocking back a jug of Fish Eagle!? Cannot debate Davidhien map facts “ … hunting 500-miles w/o fence is a big notta in our century! But probably a true statement at a time when the indigenous tribes discovered “fire.”

 

[BRICKBURN]

When I see these threads I often wonder if it starts with a cultural issue, language barrier or an ability/inability to use the written format.

It was such a cultural shock to hunt in South Africa the first time. If I had not been able to complete significant research in advance, I know I would have been quite disturbed by my hunting experience.

At home I can not:
hunt over bait (save for bears);
Shooting anything behind a fence is forbidden;
hunting at night, not happening;
Suppressors will get you a stint in jail;
No dogs for deer hunting. Not even tracking wounded game. (Pass that logic off to a European or African.)
Game is NOT private here, it is a Crown (public) resource. Strict hunting seasons, no CAE's here.

Can you imagine hunting on land that you can walk, literally for days, and not see another person?
Canada is apparently 9.985 million km². We have a human population density of 4/km². South Africa's is 49/km².

So, you can see the immediate marked differences legally and geographically.

A friend of mine hunted a Bush Pig, not uncommon. He was successful and he prized the trophy picture above all others. He chuckled every time he looked at it. I asked him why and he simply stated it was all the things that were different about the hunt. Not the size of the Boar, but the experience of doing so many things in one hunt that would land you in jail at home: Hunting game with a .2X caliber, hunting at night, using IR and using a silenced/suppressed rifle. I still chuckle at the photo.

I had to get over the fence thing first. Fences are a part of the reality in RSA and other countries in Southern Africa. CAE's are the law of the land and allow year round hunting. Find a big enough property to provide fair chase, I did multiple times. I won't hunt in a Boma.

I've shot one beast (Bison) in a paddock here in Canada. I did not hunt a Bison, I dispatched a domestic beast for meat. If you want to hunt wild Bison, really hunt them, you can. I'm not sure I am tough enough for that adventure.

I had never been in a blind for ungulates in my lifetime. My family (four generations) only stalked game (note that walking for days amount of space noted above). That changed when I went to Africa. It was some of the hardest hunting I have ever done. How do you guys sit still that long? As @KMG Hunting Safaris can attest, I do prefer to try to stalk, even with the attendant frustrations. LOL

I sat in a blind at a water point for hours on my very first hunt in Africa (with a rifle). I decided to hunt how it was presented to me on an open farm that was nothing but thick bush. Stalking, was nearly impossible on those farms. Incredibly, I pulled off a walk and stalk for both my Eland and Gemsbok using a fence line and dry riverbed and a whole lot of luck. That PH, during one of our discussions, wondered what all the fuss was about regarding hunters sitting in blinds at water, etc. "Lion's do it, its natural." I just listened and accepted his premise.

Try laying in wait in a ground blind in thick cover for hours and then finally, when provided an opportunity, being quiet enough to draw your bow when a Blue Duiker ram is less than 8 yards from you. Sniping them with dogs and a shotgun, although exciting and a totally different experience, pales in comparison. (I don't knock anyone for doing it)
Those old style Eastern Cape driven Bushbuck hunts! I wish.

Caracal with dogs. Finally finding the tree and then crawling directly under the tree with your bow and making the perfect heart shot. Having the dog handler jumping for joy at the perfect shot confused me a bit. (Afterward I found out that the dog handler was anxiously waiting for his dogs to be shredded when another bow hunter missed the perfect shot.)

Through great fortune I got to go stalking Roe Deer and Fallow in England with a friend I met here on AH. The experience was a shocker to me. The number of people, the close proximity of everything. I often felt I was hunting in someones back yard skulking between buildings. The hedge rows, the never ending hedge rows were incredible. Stalking through fields, sitting in high seats (stands). I had never considered that a high seat would present a safety advantage. What a thought. You have to shoot downward. In a countryside, I consider packed with people, it is a brilliant benefit.

Some of us won't be taking any trophy animal at the feeding trough, whether its legal or not. I'd shoot those feral hogs in Texas at bait without even blinking an eye. Because they are an invasive species and attempting to control them is a best practice.
Is a trough any different than a hunter waiting at the edge of an Oat field for the Elk or Bears to appear? Yes. Is picking up a track at the edge of a waterhole different? Yes.

I just read a hunt report where the hunter was driven in a 4x4 "to altitude" then went stalking. Is that fair chase? Does the hunter need to suffer the two hour gruelling hike to call it fair chase? The Ibex could escape into the fog at any point in time and crest a mountain shoulder and be gone. I do not begrudge the use of a vehicle to gain altitude. I wish I could have borrowed that opportunity on a few mountain hunts here.

Enjoy your hunting/stalking. Do your research, make your choices.

This discussion makes me feel incredibly grateful for the broad range of hunting experiences I have had and for this forum and all the vast experience that people share from around the world. Thanks.

 

[Spooksar]

When I see these threads I often wonder if it starts with a cultural issue, language barrier or an ability/inability to use the written format.

It was such a cultural shock to hunt in South Africa the first time. If I had not been able to complete significant research in advance, I know I would have been quite disturbed by my hunting experience.

At home I can not:
hunt over bait (save for bears);
Shooting anything behind a fence is forbidden;
hunting at night, not happening;
Suppressors will get you a stint in jail;
No dogs for deer hunting. Not even tracking wounded game. (Pass that logic off to a European or African.)
Game is NOT private here, it is a Crown (public) resource. Strict hunting seasons, no CAE's here.

Can you imagine hunting on land that you can walk, literally for days, and not see another person?
Canada is apparently 9.985 million km². We have a human population density of 4/km². South Africa's is 49/km².

So, you can see the immediate marked differences legally and geographically.

A friend of mine hunted a Bush Pig, not uncommon. He was successful and he prized the trophy picture above all others. He chuckled every time he looked at it. I asked him why and he simply stated it was all the things that were different about the hunt. Not the size of the Boar, but the experience of doing so many things in one hunt that would land you in jail at home: Hunting game with a .2X caliber, hunting at night, using IR and using a silenced/suppressed rifle. I still chuckle at the photo.

I had to get over the fence thing first. Fences are a part of the reality in RSA and other countries in Southern Africa. CAE's are the law of the land and allow year round hunting. Find a big enough property to provide fair chase, I did multiple times. I won't hunt in a Boma.

I've shot one beast (Bison) in a paddock here in Canada. I did not hunt a Bison, I dispatched a domestic beast for meat. If you want to hunt wild Bison, really hunt them, you can. I'm not sure I am tough enough for that adventure.

I had never been in a blind for ungulates in my lifetime. My family (four generations) only stalked game (note that walking for days amount of space noted above). That changed when I went to Africa. It was some of the hardest hunting I have ever done. How do you guys sit still that long? As @KMG Hunting Safaris can attest, I do prefer to try to stalk, even with the attendant frustrations. LOL

I sat in a blind at a water point for hours on my very first hunt in Africa (with a rifle). I decided to hunt how it was presented to me on an open farm that was nothing but thick bush. Stalking, was nearly impossible on those farms. Incredibly, I pulled off a walk and stalk for both my Eland and Gemsbok using a fence line and dry riverbed and a whole lot of luck. That PH, during one of our discussions, wondered what all the fuss was about regarding hunters sitting in blinds at water, etc. "Lion's do it, its natural." I just listened and accepted his premise.

Try laying in wait in a ground blind in thick cover for hours and then finally, when provided an opportunity, being quiet enough to draw your bow when a Blue Duiker ram is less than 8 yards from you. Sniping them with dogs and a shotgun, although exciting and a totally different experience, pales in comparison. (I don't knock anyone for doing it)
Those old style Eastern Cape driven Bushbuck hunts! I wish.

Caracal with dogs. Finally finding the tree and then crawling directly under the tree with your bow and making the perfect heart shot. Having the dog handler jumping for joy at the perfect shot confused me a bit. (Afterward I found out that the dog handler was anxiously waiting for his dogs to be shredded when another bow hunter missed the perfect shot.)

Through great fortune I got to go stalking Roe Deer and Fallow in England with a friend I met here on AH. The experience was a shocker to me. The number of people, the close proximity of everything. I often felt I was hunting in someones back yard skulking between buildings. The hedge rows, the never ending hedge rows were incredible. Stalking through fields, sitting in high seats (stands). I had never considered that a high seat would present a safety advantage. What a thought. You have to shoot downward. In a countryside, I consider packed with people, it is a brilliant benefit.

Some of us won't be taking any trophy animal at the feeding trough, whether its legal or not. I'd shoot those feral hogs in Texas at bait without even blinking an eye. Because they are an invasive species and attempting to control them is a best practice.
Is a trough any different than a hunter waiting at the edge of an Oat field for the Elk or Bears to appear? Yes. Is picking up a track at the edge of a waterhole different? Yes.

I just read a hunt report where the hunter was driven in a 4x4 "to altitude" then went stalking. Is that fair chase? Does the hunter need to suffer the two hour gruelling hike to call it fair chase? The Ibex could escape into the fog at any point in time and crest a mountain shoulder and be gone. I do not begrudge the use of a vehicle to gain altitude. I wish I could have borrowed that opportunity on a few mountain hunts here.

Enjoy your hunting/stalking. Do your research, make your choices.

This discussion makes me feel incredibly grateful for the broad range of hunting experiences I have had and for this forum and all the vast experience that people share from around the world. Thanks.

Well said Wayne

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I don't think he's a troll. I believe he's an intermittent member. Something triggered him to share an opinion. He is entitled to that opinion. While he said he was bringing this up respectfully, I think he did a poor job in that regard. Perhaps as Wayne said it's a cultural communication thing. I could totally buy it. While he is entitled to his opinion, he has to own deciding to share it where and how he did. We all have opinions that can be different. I know I have just a few that I refrain from sharing because there is no sense to sharing them. I really believe this fellow probably believes what he said, probably shouldn't have shared it, and should rethink why he holds this opinion, because for a host of reasons in a whole lot of situations it just doesn't make sense.

 

[wesheltonj]

Another this is the only way to hunt post. Sir, if you really believe that is the only way, please don’t come to South Texas. An elevated stand is the only way to hunt in South Texas. It’s impossible to spot and stock in unchained brush. I have a nice and wide cleared area and a big feeder. The doe’s eat up the corn. The doe’s attract the bucks. I have yet to see a big buck at the feeders during the rut (non-rut, they will come to the feeder) or have I shot a Deer at the feeders. Now a hog, will be shot wherever it’s standing, unless I might shoot a feeder leg.

 

[Spooksar]

To add a bit to Brickburns post I’m 68 and have been hunting since I was 5. My ways of hunting have changed over the years, because of age or injuries. I now shoot left handed because of eye problems, so I have adapted. I was once asked by a Namibia PH if I would shoot off a truck, my answer is not now but the day may come when it’s the only way I can hunt. I don’t judge anyone hunting in any legal method.