Eland Cartridges for recoil sensitive shooter?

[Flewis]

It's for a small kid.

Well at least no one’s suggesting the 460wby yet, Yet.

 

[rookhawk]

Lotsa lotsa posts on this thread! Wow.

As has been mentioned many times on the thread and elsewhere, for eland, your minimum viable would be a 7x57, a 7x64, or a 280 remington.

I recommend the 7x64 or 280 Rem and custom ammo, norma Oryx or Swift A-frame. It will produce 17lbs of felt recoil in an average weight, scoped magazine rifle. The milder recoil (and efficacy) of the 7x57 at a typical 14lbs felt recoil is undermined by the fact you'll need the heavier bullet at faster velocities, pushing it right up against the recoil of the 7x64/280rem with less oomph, so I would not use the 7x57 at an eland-load effective savings of 2-3% recoil in the bargain.

But that's it, that's the deepest penetrating, mildest recoiling caliber choices you have for Eland. My son took his eland when he was ten using a 7x64 at a time when he weighed about 100lbs on the nose.

 

[rookhawk]

Postscript, whatever you choose for the caliber, be it the brilliant choices I recommended or the terrible choices others recommended, (that's humorous sarcasm) the following protocols and configurations are KEY.

1.) Use a custom load that selects a powder that will achieve velocity with the fewest grains, thus reducing recoil for equivalent work. (4064, reloader 15, etc.)

2.) Put a leather padded cheek rest on the gun.

3.) Use a soft recoil pad

4.) NEVER, friggin EVER let a recoil averse person shoot a gun from a bench. Off sticks ONLY.

5.) Extra low or low scope rings.

6.) 24mm to 36mm exit objective optic, getting the scope as low as possible so the kid's face is welded to the stock rather than getting punched in the face by weak contact with the jaw.

7.) Make lethargic practice loads. Don't let the recoil averse shooter practice with the full lethality eland load. Sight the gun in for them with the real McCoy load, let them practice with a diminished load. They will never know the difference IF they only experience full recoil when hunting.

 

[rookhawk]

He will likely have shot several deer and lots of small game in US prior to hunt. Why not shoot an eland if that’s his goal? Europe seems to be doing a very poor job attracting young hunters to the sport from what I’ve seen. It’s too heavily restricted there unlike the US.

I went on my first safari at 13, shot my biggest kudu to date at 15, shot hippo and croc at 17 and tracked buffalo. I couldn’t imagine being told I could only hunt impala and birds while my Dad hunted big game on those hunts.

My kid was hunting elephant at age ten, although we didn't connect. He did get a nice croc that trip and many other animals including a good kudu. That wasn't with a 7x64 as recommended above, it was with a 375HH that we loaded to 9.3x62 performance and produced 26lbs of recoil rather than the typical off-the-shelf 38lbs.

To your point @375Fox there is a path forward, this is a winnable game. Having a kid watch grown ups hunt due to recoil aversion or a weak draw weight (if bow hunting) is stupid. They put in the practice, the grown ups put in the engineering time to ensure the physics is ethically sufficient. That's what dads are supposed to do, make the impossible possible by working the problem to a solution.

 

[serdog]

My PH (and good friend) does not think that anything smaller than 7 mm should even be considered. He thinks that a 7x57 can be used, but the .308 or .30-06 should be considered a minimum. I'd have to agree with him. Moose are big, but they tend to die much more easily than an eland does.

If they are saying .30 cal should be consider the minimum start work towards a 30-06 get some reduced recoil which are around 6.5 Creedmoor recoil level according to Mr. Hawk (10Ft/bls) With a .30-06 one is basically set short of thick skinned dangerous game. With 2 year of work a it should be doable to manage the recoil with a suppressor if those are hard/unlawful to get in your jurisdiction.

.308 is a also a good pick but .30-06 is better with heavier bullet that I think you will end up using but as other have mention if you can get the same model as the 6.5 creedmoor that might your son to learn the .308

Reduced Recoil Ammunition Effectiveness

 

[channelkat]

I wasn't trying to get anything started amongst this realtively like minded crowd. I suppose I feel more like rookhawk, with the expectations of my kid, but each parent rightfully has their own system, and each kid matures somewhat differently.

I went DG hunting in Moz this summer and didn't take him, because he wasn't ready. I know my kid is certainly ready for most plains game scenarios. He understands an Eland hunt is a real hunt and a tough animal. If he can prove himself up to the task earlier than 16, why wait? If he is not ready for eland before we go then he won't hunt one. If he wants it enough, he will put in the effort to make it happen. I intend to assist him in his efforts. We shall see.

 

[Nevada Mike]

When I was a small boy, my father, an NRA marksmanship intructor and one of the first Safety Course instructors, taught me gun safety, taught me to shoot rifles and shotguns, bought me a centerfire rifle, judged me capable and responsible, and turned me loose. i was 14 years old, and still small for my age. I hunted, fished, and went on extended back packing trips into wilderness areas - alone or with friends of my own age. I never had any major problems.

If I was raised in Europe, I may have had a different course, but ended up in the same place.

 

[Woodcarver]

Like others, my shooting started young, around age 4, and I have continued that with my kids and grandkids. Ingraining the fundamentals of gun safety from an early age produces safe handling in the field, and at home, as they put the training into practice. Waiting until their teens to start just impedes the process. I was shooting Dad's 30-06s before I was 9, and was small for age at that point in life. Because I wanted to shoot it in order to go deer hunting at age 10 (earliest big game was allowed in AZ at the time), my Dad helped me with the form and I worked through the mental part of that "big" gun.

As to the OP, with the time allowed between now and your hunt, it does seem very probable that your son will grow and with ample range time, easily begin working with other cartridges. As I have no experience in Africa, I won't even attempt to debate whether the 6.5 is adequate/good/sucks for eland. But I have found by only having my kids and grandkids work from hunting positions, typically sitting or kneeling, off a tripod, never off the bench until older, they avoided the pitfalls of developing a flinch. The suggestions to work primarily off sticks, as that is the most likely position he will shoot an eland from, makes sense. It also puts the body into the best position to absorb whatever recoil the rifle produces.
Your son is fortunate to get the opportunity to hunt Africa. If he really wants it, he will work to be the best shot he can with whatever he will be shooting. Trigger time is the best way to get past recoil aversion. And as others have pointed out, an accurately placed first shot is the most important, regardless of what caliber is being shot.

 

[channelkat]

The boy seems to understand the limited shot range, angles and power of his 6.5. He is ETREMELY disciplined with his shots. I witnessed him turn down shots he told me he didn't think were "ethical".

It seems fine to me to hunt with a lighter load, so long as one is disciplined enough to stick to shots within the parameters of the cartridge/ bullet. The limited range and angles would seem, to me, to keep the margin of error sufficient.

That being said, I am eager to see him grow into a genuine elk cartridge, that should extend his opportunity at home. Seems the consensus is that any of those good elk calibers should be sufficient. I think in the next year or so that is extremely doable. A magnum may even be doable by then, but at this point I would like to see him super confident and accurate with his daily hunting rig than rush to a magnum for this hunt. Either way it is extremely helpful for him to have a goal to work toward. As we get closer, I will assess the situation and reflect on this thread.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

The boy seems to understand the limited shot range, angles and power of his 6.5. He is ETREMELY disciplined with his shots. I witnessed him turn down shots he told me he didn't think were "ethical".

It seems fine to me to hunt with a lighter load, so long as one is disciplined enough to stick to shots within the parameters of the cartridge/ bullet. The limited range and angles would seem, to me, to keep the margin of error sufficient.

That being said, I am eager to see him grow into a genuine elk cartridge, that should extend his opportunity at home. Seems the consensus is that any of those good elk calibers should be sufficient. I think in the next year or so that is extremely doable. A magnum may even be doable by then, but at this point I would like to see him super confident and accurate with his daily hunting rig than rush to a magnum for this hunt. Either way it extremely helpful for him to have a goal to work toward. As we get closer, I will assess the situation and reflect on this thread.

Do you reload? I probably missed it. The way boys that age can get a growth spurt he may be 30 pounds heavier and 3 inches taller by then. And as you say recoil may not be an issue.
I am truly biased, but the beauty of a 30-06 is the amount bullets available and the ways you can load it. You can start with 30-30 level loads, which will be like a popgun, and work up when the time comes.
The 7s are great as well, but pretty close to the 6,5.

 

[channelkat]

I don't have a bench set up (or really a place to just keep it set up permanently) so it is kind of a headache right now, but I can reload if I need to. As I was reading the suggestions here, I did start thinking I might just need to set it up and develop some low recoil loads for my 30-06. It happens to be the only bolt rifle I currently own that is even remotely appropriate for him to shoot any time soon. It was my first rifle (an old Winchester 670, 30-06) and has for whatever reason become my go to rifle over the years. I recently put a recoil pad on it and with the right load I should be able to get it tolerable for him.

If you have in recipes, please share!

 

[Luederitz]

IIRC in Namibia and Zimbabwe there are regulations for larger plains game.
Please check NAPHA.
Our PH in Zimbabwe had very explicit expressions for people trying to shoot with small calibers on large game like Eland...

PS: if you hunt in Africa, you should be able to stalk several hours, carry the gun and place exhausted a precise shot. If you´re not able to perform (independent of age) you should not go to Africa.

 

[CJW]

I don't have a bench set up (or really a place to just keep it set up permanently) so it is kind of a headache right now, but I can reload if I need to. As I was reading the suggestions here, I did start thinking I might just need to set it up and develop some low recoil loads for my 30-06. It happens to be the only bolt rifle I currently own that is even remotely appropriate for him to shoot any time soon. It was my first rifle (an old Winchester 670, 30-06) and has for whatever reason become my go to rifle over the years. I recently put a recoil pad on it and with the right load I should be able to get it tolerable for him.

If you have in recipes, please share!

I think going with the 30-06 is the right route for an all around elk and Africa cartridge, especially if you are capable of reloading.

I would buy some cheap 150 or 165 grain bullets, H4895 powder and follow hodgdons 60% reduced load guidelines. Start him out low and work up. Let him shoot offhand instead of off of a bench or sticks. Offhand isn't practiced enough anyways and is the most forgiving for recoil. Ending up at a good 180, 200 or 220gr bullet, the heavier the better would be my preference for eland, at moderate velocity should be attainable by 2025 which is I believe when you said you would be going. Maybe even forego a scope at first and let him focus on the sights and having fun shooting at tin cans, clay pigeons, chunks of firewood, steel plates, deer cardboard cutouts, etc. in the beginning. IMO scopes, shooting for groups/paper punching, benches, bipods, etc have taken a lot of the fun out of shooting and probably added to the recoil flinching problem. And remember good hearing protection.

There is another powder recommended for reduced recoil which I learned of recently. I'll report back when I find what it was.

Also, if you want a compact way to reload, the Lee Loader kits are nice. All of your reloading tools and components can be stored in a small bag, duffel, backpack, tote, cardboard box or whatever. It neck sizes only though.

And you know what? Even if he or you decides that eland are another trip or two away, the smaller PG species are still fun as can be to chase. Warthogs especially are a blast. Personally, a large old blue eland is one of my dream hunts so I'm rooting for him.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Next profanity or insult gets a vacation!

 

[Nevada Mike]

I think going with the 30-06 is the right route for an all around elk and Africa cartridge, especially if you are capable of reloading.

...There is another powder recommended for reduced recoil which I learned of recently. I'll report back when I find what it was...

AA5744 ? Contact Hodgdon's Tech Support and they will help with reduced loads for he 30-'06. They have helped me in the past with practice loads for the 404J.

 

[MarkB]

The boy seems to understand the limited shot range, angles and power of his 6.5. He is ETREMELY disciplined with his shots. I witnessed him turn down shots he told me he didn't think were "ethical".

It seems fine to me to hunt with a lighter load, so long as one is disciplined enough to stick to shots within the parameters of the cartridge/ bullet. The limited range and angles would seem, to me, to keep the margin of error sufficient.

That being said, I am eager to see him grow into a genuine elk cartridge, that should extend his opportunity at home. Seems the consensus is that any of those good elk calibers should be sufficient. I think in the next year or so that is extremely doable. A magnum may even be doable by then, but at this point I would like to see him super confident and accurate with his daily hunting rig than rush to a magnum for this hunt. Either way it is extremely helpful for him to have a goal to work toward. As we get closer, I will assess the situation and reflect on this thread.

Excellent summary Dad.

Good Job, a new upcoming safari goer I foresee.

MB

 

[lockingblock]

Full disclosure- I am a firearms instructor, so brevity isn’t my strong suit when it comes to guns…

Recoil is divided into two types- Mechanical and felt. Mechanical recoil is simply math…every action generates equal and opposite reaction. Felt is what you are looking at.

So, the goal is to reduce felt recoil.

You do that several ways:

1. Rifle fit- This is essential. Measure his length of pull first. Then, look at his non dominant arm length relative to forearm length so that he can grip the rifle with his hand mid to forward on the forearm. The scope must be mounted so that he gets a full picture with no shadow, but it can not hit him or require him to stretch his neck forward. It should work in a relaxed position.

2. Recoil Pad- Yes, 1 inch and soft.

3. Rifle weight. This is huge. Heavy rifles kick less. 8 pounds is good for recoil sensitive people. 10 works but gets hard to hold for kids.

4. Muzzle brakes flat work…get a removable one to train with and learn without flinching. They are LOUD so double ear protection. Peltors with gel cups when hunting. Noise causes flinch too.

5. Reduced loads. This is a maybe…but it works.

I‘d probably look at a Tika for a full sized rifle if he can…or an X bolt if he needs a youth model.

 

[CJW]

AA5744 ? Contact Hodgdon's Tech Support and they will help with reduced loads for he 30-'06. They have helped me in the past with practice loads for the 404J.

Yes that was it.

 

[Tom Leoni]

I will kindly and modestly put forth that we're overthinking this.

Any cartridge of 6.5mm diameter or more, with a relatively heavy-for-caliber bullet at moderate velocity, can kill eland cleanly and humanely.

Yes, a more powerful cartridge can also smash its shoulder-bones if needed, but with good shot placement (and it's a big target), eland is just as vulnerable to the average rifle bullet as any other animal.

If still in doubt, talk to your PH.

 

[serdog]

I will kindly and modestly put forth that we're overthinking this.

Any cartridge of 6.5mm diameter or more, with a relatively heavy-for-caliber bullet at moderate velocity, can kill eland cleanly and humanely.

Yes, a more powerful cartridge can also smash its shoulder-bones if needed, but with good shot placement (and it's a big target), eland is just as vulnerable to the average rifle bullet as any other animal.

If still in doubt, talk to your PH.

The PH said bare minimum is a 7mm and should be at least a .308/.30-06 class rifle according to OP.