Drilling Rifle Identification Help

[rookhawk]

Where did I miss the Austria part? I don’t see a Ferlach, I see a late 19th or early 20th century German guild drilling proofed at Suhl.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Ok, I meant the German confederation. I may be wrong but From what I understand German and Austrian firearms loose value compared to the same quality British arms

 

[Red Leg]

It would be shocking to get a quote to have that rifle built in Austria now.

It’s a shame how Austrian firearms don’t hold value as well as British

It is a Suhl proofed German gun with German proof marks. It is not Austrian.

Hard to compare a drilling to a British firearm because the Brits made so few doubles with a rifle barrel. Most of those were a small game round running through the rib along the top of the barrels.

There are exceptions to the British is best belief. For instance, a Lindner built (Germany) Charles Daly imported boxlock from the turn of the last century will beat almost any British boxlock but a WR droplock, and there, depending upon embellishment, it will be close.

It has the correct German proofs from 1891 - 1939. I do not see a date code. The barrels are marked Krupp steel which were designed for nitro guns. I have no doubt that it is regardless of a "nitro" marking or not. Because it is not a hammer gun but is also in the rapidly becoming obsolete 9,3x72R load, I would guess it was built in the 20's.

 

[Red Leg]

Definitely a German gun, though I'm not sure I would call it a guild gun. Probably just a nice gun built by a maker in Germany. They didn't always put their names on them unless they were a large manufacturer (and even then they sometimes put someone else's name on them, as in the case of Geco for example). I believe 118/35 means this was the 118th gun produced by the maker in 1935. I could be wrong about that however. It originally had 65mm chambers, but someone extended them to 70mm at some point based on the rather crude engraved "70" below the 16. The proofs are all pretty standard German prewar proofs. Do you see it marked for Nitro anywhere? Many times it would just above the barrel flat on bottom of the barrel where it meets the flat - in that shadowy area. It should have a crown N and Nitro.

That is pretty much the definition of a guild gun.

 

[steve white]

A "guild gun" is sometimes put together by the very best workmen in the Suhl/Zehla Mellis region, often the customer was a shop owner who sometimes engraved their name on the sight rib, sometimes not. The real story is the myriad proof marks. They are the touch marks by which the craftsmen were paid. There is an interesting correlation of the better known tube knitters/regulators, actioners, and others with the better known and valued brands. And they frequently worked for multiple firms. This gets convoluted with historical changes and adverse events like war and new national boundaries. Some people make it their life work, practically, to keep up with such things. Little nuances, like not only the initials of workmen, but their setting insides rhombuses, etc. were well known and appreciated at the time. They were well known signatures, if you will. It might be against the rules to mention another website, but there IS one frequented by exactly the kind of people who could tell you all about this drilling, and practically what the worker had for lunch that day! A fellow that goes by the moniker, Ellenbr comes to mind...
The 9.3x72 (almost identical to the 35 Rem. in power and performance) was once called "Der Forster" round, and was common. I personally have little use for it, but whoever built the drilling we are discussing thought the world of it to spend what he did on a drilling as engraved and gotten up as it was. Savor it and use it!

 

[steve white]

This may get striked--I am, with apologies in a hurry to get to the hospital, abruptly.
The site which Ellenbr frequents is DoubleGunShop. You can find all you want answered there.

 

[steve white]

That is wonderful news!

The gun is more grungy than it is worn. I’d recommend using 0000 fine bronze wool and kroil to get the gunk off all the metal. I’d follow that up with a run down with a pink rubber eraser to clean the crud out of the engraving.

Good points, well taken, but...some of the darkness is not grunge but rather inking to darken the stippled background of the engraving. An eraser probably won't erase that, hopefully.

 

[rookhawk]

Good points, well taken, but...some of the darkness is not grunge but rather inking to darken the stippled background of the engraving. An eraser probably won't erase that, hopefully.

If it does, you just re-ink it. Super easy. But getting the grime out is important because there can be active rust mixed in. The extractor spur rod was one area I would clean thoroughly and inspect to ensure it isn't compromised and shedding rust between the three barrels where it can fester unseen.

 

[steve white]

118/35 doesn’t mean what we think it means.

I’ve asked experts why it means what it means, no one has given me a satisfactory formula for why.

The 118/35 indicates the caliber or bore of the rifle barrel. I know 172/28 means 8mm. I *think* 118/35 means 9.3mm. If any German proof genius could chime in to explain how that nomenclature is calculated to infer the bore dimensions, I’d be grateful.

And yes, other numbers with a decimal on german guns do mean the gun through the proof house in a given year…but not that one.

It is a ledger number. Unfortunately, almost all records of Suhl guns were destroyed in WWII. I defer to the collective wisdom of the folks over at DoubleGunShop, under German and Austrian Guns blogs.

 

[steve white]

As @PerH noted, the three number date code should be under the barrels or on the receiver. I do not see it on the receiver, so perhaps underneath and where the auction house came up with 1935. The markings on the barrel simply indicate that a quality Krupp steel was used for the barrels. The Crown over U proof mark was used between 1891 to 1939 (actually began to be used in 1895).

Assuming there is no retailer or gunmaker information on the rib, then this would be considered a very high quality "Guild" gun. Prior to WWII individuals and retailers would regularly commission hunting firearms from independent gunmakers. Most of the time, there would be no obvious marking of the actual maker anywhere on the firearm. Sometimes , a larger maker like Lindner would have a small stamp with which the barrels would be marked underneath.

The good news is this is a very high-end true sidelock with excellent quality high relief engraving. I have personally not seen pin placement on the action exactly like this, so I am not sure its name in the trade. Again, as @PerH posted, Dietrich Apel's site is the best source for additional research. https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-types/ It is also in a useful caliber for whitetail or wild boar - roughly equivalent to a 30-30. The gun has claw bases for which a skilled gunmaker can build rings in order to scope the rifle. Assuming it came out of a North American auction house, it was likely "liberated" by a GI during the closing days of WWII and brought back. Scopes were normally kept in a separate leather case and were typically overlooked while rummaging around closets and gun cases.

The bad news is that it will require a lot of highly specialized TLC. Some imbecile, no doubt on this side of the pond, took a screwdriver to the action at some point, so hence the buggered screws. The broken set trigger could have been the cause or a result. Another imbecile sliced off the horn or steel buttplate and added that spawn of satan whiteline recoil pad. Also, putting such a gun back on face properly is more challenging than a double barrel and requires specialized skills. Any broken action parts or springs will have to be built from scratch. My first call would be to JJ Perodeau https://jjperodeau.com/ who is in your state outside of Tulsa.

Hope you get it up a running. It is fine example of pre-war work and deserves restoration.

OK, Redleg, you are officially driving me crazy. I agree with your assessment on the pin placement. Nearest I see in pictures for pin placement is the Nimrod by Thieme & Schlegelmilch--but those guns usually have a sloping cutout on the water table next to the fences. Side safety placement seems the same, though. That action has a stem-chain arrangement in the sidelocks, and whatever we are looking at, THERE IS A REASON FOR THE PIN PLACEMENT. I cannot get away from the feeling that it is an early Sauer side lock, despite the use of dolls head instead of Greener cross bolting. A customer could get anything they asked for as long as they could pay for it. I'm going with the long discontinued side lock action by Sauer--a wonderful action with superb triggers, BTW. Manufacture would fit the timeline. Be nice if DoubleGunShop could see those proof marks, though...

I sold my Sauer side lock to fund first buff hunt, so do not have in hand to compare.

Love your Shuler-Hercules actioned shotgun in another thread, BTW

 

[Jpowers8340]

Here are a couple pages I found when researching a gun I bought. Thought they might help:


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You guys are awesome. I really appreciate all this knowledge. It’s going to take me a while to read it and comprehend everything so I know what im looking at but you guys are the best.

 

[steve white]

And by "driving me crazy" I mean trying to identify the maker of the drilling given pin placement, etc.
It would be a short drive in any case.