Down loading the 458WM to 45-70??

[Boyd Brooks]

A 50 cal muzzle loader with 2 pelts of White Hot pushing a 285gr Barnes spit-fire MZ projectile out of my TC is awesome on bears. Very little recoil. If you miss with any rifle at the distances you say, out of a tree, you won’t get a second shot unless you have a semi-auto. Saying that my old Ruger 44 carbine is also a great low recoil option at 30ish yards.

 

[Ridge Runner]

A 50 cal muzzle loader with 2 pelts of White Hot pushing a 285gr Barnes spit-fire MZ projectile out of my TC is awesome on bears. Very little recoil. If you miss with any rifle at the distances you say, out of a tree, you won’t get a second shot unless you have a semi-auto. Saying that my old Ruger 44 carbine is also a great low recoil option at 30ish yards.

Muzzleloader isn't an option at this point. A 44 mag rifle is already on the list of rifle options.

One of several rifles I wish I still had, but traded it to a friend for reloading equipment, various books, and cash a bunch of years ago. Before Ruger quit producing the little carbine that looked like a 10/22.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

Muzzleloader isn't an option at this point. A 44 mag rifle is already on the list of rifle options.

One of several rifles I wish I still had, but traded it to a friend for reloading equipment, various books, and cash a bunch of years ago. Before Ruger quit producing the little carbine that looked like a 10/22.

Yeah that’s the one. Lose lots of brass with it. I got a box of 250gr Nosler partitions years ago and they are one shot kills on deer and a bear.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

IMR 3031 is a great powder for light 458 loads. Every 458 I have owned loves 3031 and Hornady 350gr bullets.

When Mama wanted to use my Highland Stalker in 30-06, I let her shoot Remington Low Recoil 125gr bullet ammo. It kicks like a .243. On game she used Barnes 180gr TTSX and didn't know the difference.

Safe shooting

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I shoot and test a lot of shotgun slugs.
The 12 ga "Classic Magnum" Brenneke 2 3/4 inch original (for smooth bores) at 1 1/8 oz or the 20 ga Rottweil 15/16 oz Laser slug (for rifled barrels) will kill any Black bear on Earth at short range. (I use a Leupold Short Range scope on a rifled Benelli 20ga, and that slug has shot thru moose.) A 3" 12 ga slug is overkill and over-recoil for your needs. IMO. Someone else will have to answer regarding the 458 WM.......best of luck with whatever you decide........FWB

@flatwater bill
Bill a selling and ballot 3 inck magnum 1 and 1/8 Oz slug at 1,600fps in a mosberg bolt gun really gets your attention.
Bob

 

[ARHinAK]

I know you didn’t ask but I still gotta say it.
This person needs to start at the start. By that I mean some supervised instruction with a .22 long rifle wearing double ear protection until she is a crack shot. How ever many bricks of .22 that takes.
Then, step up to a .223, again with double ear protection and anything else you can think of to mitigate recoil and muzzle blast.
Once satisfied that she’s shooting good and not afraid of the gun I’d step her up to 7mm08 with 140 Partitions and absolutely nothing even 1 millimeter bigger. It’s not necessary and quite often counterproductive.
Best of luck!

 

[Ridge Runner]

IMR 3031 is a great powder for light 458 loads. Every 458 I have owned loves 3031 and Hornady 350gr bullets.

When Mama wanted to use my Highland Stalker in 30-06, I let her shoot Remington Low Recoil 125gr bullet ammo. It kicks like a .243. On game she used Barnes 180gr TTSX and didn't know the difference.

Safe shooting

Thanks SFRanger7GP.
If I'm not mistaken that's my go to powder (IMR 3031) for 30-30 topped with a Hornady 150 grain round nose.

Last deer I shoot with that load dropped in its tracks.

 

[rookhawk]

Need some help with a recoil sensitive shooter going on a Canadian bear hunt.

Although I do have a new 45-70 lever action, she would much rather use a bolt action and the only other option is to download my 458WM to upper 45-70 loads.

Is this doable? or are there more recoil friendly other large bore options?

I've already suggested a 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs.

They will be hunting for tree stands and she is expecting her longest shot to be around 30 yards. Yeah, we all know....expect the unexpected. Last bear season she used the guide's 270 and missed. When I saw how she shoulder my rifle I know why...she needs more range time. And she favors her shoulder...medical problem...I'm going to try to get her to wear a shooter's (shoulder) pad. 50/50 psychological and to actually help to keep her from re injuring her shoulder.

Much appreciated any and all suggestions.

I'm not a very agreeable person. I like it all. Champagne tastes and beer budget is sort of my mindset.

So, I'd start with a different question for you. What is the best full power 458 WM load that has very little recoil? From the answer to that question, you can then load down further out of necessity.

Open up some reloading manuals and identify all the powders at a given bullet weight and their velocities. Recoil is based on the weight of the gun, the weight of the bullet, observed velocity, and the amount of powder.

All things being equal, the powder type that achieves velocity with the fewest grains has the lowest recoil.

I was discussing this today with a friend. My 470NE using 3031 as the powder at a given velocity creates 58lbs of recoil. Using 4831 as the powder, its 89lbs of recoil! Same results, same velocities, same bullets, just a powder change.

 

[Hunter4752001]

The monometal bullet I used was an Atomic29 projectile designed for bolt actions. It has a longer nose profile than the ones he makes for lever actions. The huge hollow point still makes it look like a flying beer stein.

The Seirra 300g HP/FN is one designed for lever actions. Because it is designed for 45/70 velocities, Sierra set a max velocity of around 2,400 fps ie the bullet will fragment on impact above that point.

Hodgdon provides on-line load data for a range of 458 WM projectiles. I used their Barnes data for the Atomic29 and downloaded for the Sierra. Hornady manual also has loads for this weight of projectiles.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Hi rookhawk,

I have my own "pet loads" for all my firearms. Unfortunately, the choice of firearm and load would not be recoil suitable for my niece in law.

With exceptions to my newly acquired firearms:
38-55
45-70
38 spl Derringer
7.7 JAP (×2)]

In the hopes of saving myself some time and research I have asked the members hear for help. Just found out last weekend (Aug 5-6), that my more experienced nephew is taking his wife on a redemption bear hunt in Canada in 11 or days. Thus I'm a bit under the "perverbial gun, to get her up to speed". With her work and home schedule IF I'm lucky maybe have 2 or 3 days to work with her. Not Good is an understatement. But feasible.

 

[Ridge Runner]

The monometal bullet I used was an Atomic29 projectile designed for bolt actions. It has a longer nose profile than the ones he makes for lever actions. The huge hollow point still makes it look like a flying beer stein.

The Seirra 300g HP/FN is one designed for lever actions. Because it is designed for 45/70 velocities, Sierra set a max velocity of around 2,400 fps ie the bullet will fragment on impact above that point.

Hodgdon provides on-line load data for a range of 458 WM projectiles. I used their Barnes data for the Atomic29 and downloaded for the Sierra. Hornady manual also has loads for this weight of projectiles.

Another reason I've come seeking forum members knowledge, to learn who and why (what game animals) they download their 458WM.

Since bear, close ranges, and lack of time to prepare, are involved. I need a lot of help, experience, and good suggestions that will help me to bring her up to at least a 75% chance of being successful.

My niece in law is motivated, and currently has the determination to join and enjoy her husband's, my nephew's passion for the outdoors....to include learning to hunt....and I would not be a good uncle in law if I didn't give 120% to get her, and keep her interested. Maybe one day she more than her husband will need an inoculations against the dreaded African hunting bug; .

 

[Brian]

Hello Ridge Runner, I think that the key to this is the choice of bullet you use. If you go down to 30-30, l recommend the Cutting Edge bullets 130 gr Lever Gun Raptor and load it to high velocities. My grandson used that bullet for plains game in Africa. It kills well.

If you go for a mild load in a 458 WM, which I think is a good idea for bear, as it will kill quickly and just have a slow push of a recoil, I recommend Cutting Edge Bullets Raptors in the 250 grain range at 1,600 fps to 2,000 fps. ( Check the required twist rate on the Cutting Edge Bullet website or phone Cutting edge bullets about it. Any monolithic bullet is longer for weight than a traditional cup and core bullet and may need a faster twist rate to stabilize at lower velocity.)
I promise you that 250gr 458 bullet at 2,000 will kill a bear quickly, about like a .375WM. It's the bullet diameter that makes a big difference not just the velocity.

When using a big bore rifle, it's always fun and productive to have her practice a bit with a mild load, using the cheapest lightest bullet that you can get and load it way down. Don't let her shoot it off of a bench. Then get some one to load a test 20 heavier hunting loads for her. ( In this case 1,900 + fps. and don't have her shoot them off a bench. Thats how I always got my kids going on a big rifle.)

Also, most people who have not used the Cutting Edge Bullet #13 solid will tell you not to use a solid bullet at all. The CEB #13 is different. It penetrates deep and straight and leaves a big non-collapsing wound channel. You may get big entrance and exit hole for a blood trail but it will be a short one. ( I have used them on cape buffalo in a 375WM.)

Many, many bears, big and small have been knocked down with a low velocity 45-70's using a hard cast wide flat nosed bullets. Now-a-days many cape buffalo ( 1500 lbs. - 1800 lbs.) are being killed by one shot with a 45-70 with the right bullets.

Enjoy your hunt. Brian

 

[Ridge Runner]

Can you borrow a crossbow for her. Where are you at. And where are you bear hunting?

I have a crossbow she could use.
They will be hunting in Canada.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I played around with H4895 under 295 gr Raptors and 300 gr BT's in my 458. Going to the 60% of maximum gave me some hang fires so I increased significantly to 60 gr and had a very fun to shoot 9.5 pound 458 WM but the BT's gave me eratic accuracy. The Raptors are significantly longer so I think that aided in accuracy. I guestimated it to be around 1900 +/- fps. I have also loaded the 295 gr Raptors over 71.5 grains of 2230 for very good accuracy at 100 yds and comfortable recoil. You could probably reduce that load by a few grains and be around 2100 fps.

View attachment 550629

But like Marc said, maybe even her own rifle fitted to her? Maybe a 7x57 or even a 30-30 with good bullets?

Which 2230 are you using, Alliant or IMR?

 

[CJW]

Which 2230 are you using, Alliant or IMR?

Accurate. To my knowledge neither of those two make a 2230.

 

[Mike70560]

Look at using Hodgden 5744. It is made for reduced loads.

 

[JeffD]

I have used the 300 grain Barnes TSX and the 458 loaded with a starting charge of H – 4198. It kicks more than a 270, although much less than standard 458 loads. It was very accurate in my gun. Surprising. But if you missed with a 270, and recoil sensitivity/fear was a part of her shooting problem, I don’t think downloading a 458 to any level will help very much.

 

[DrBob]

As above the H4895 which is a AR2206H equivalent can be downloaded significantly. ADI Australia who make advise it can be loaded as low as 60% of max load. As @CJW found some issues look into it further but it's potentially an option once you find a reliable load.
Alternatively how high can you load with Trailboss if it's available.

True... that said sticking a small open cell backer rod wad to keep powder near primer is helpful as in large African calibers. Accurate makes A5744 for these light loads and targeted to nitro for black powder rounds. I have used 5744 and it is great.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

45-70 black powder loads killed plenty of game back in the day. 400g hard cast bullet and some Trail Boss will get you
something pretty mild.

That said (and I hate to be that guy), I wouldn't be putting her in front of any game until she's had enough range time to show she is up to the task- consider everyone lucky that she missed at 30 yards rather than wounded an animal last time

 

[mooze]

As above the H4895 which is a AR2206H equivalent can be downloaded significantly. ADI Australia who make advise it can be loaded as low as 60% of max load. As @CJW found some issues look into it further but it's potentially an option once you find a reliable load.
Alternatively how high can you load with Trailboss if it's available.

these were my 2 lines of thought as well. Black bears are not terribly hard to kill, a 458 cal bullet at anything above 1400 fps and under 50y is not unreasonable. If the 458 gun is heavy and she can handle the weight, that is good. A light 308 may kick a lot harder.
But as said by others, shooting practice to get rid of bad technique and a flinch should be the start.

Trailboss with 23 gr gets you into the 1300fps range, H4895 probably a bit above that, recipe here:

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/site/ballisticstudies/files/Hodgdon%20H4895%20reduced%20load%20data.pdf

458 WM is not listed but H4895 77-80gr max is listed for 350 and 400 gr projectiles