Double Rifles & Monolithic Solids

[Professor Mawla]

Good evening ;

While corresponding with Mr. Jeff Rann , I recently learnt that Jeff currently uses a William Evans .500 Nitro Express boxlock ejector double rifle and 570 grain Barnes banded monolithic solids . This has gotten me thinking . What brands of double rifles are advertised as being safe with monolithic solid bullets ?

Being a long time user of conventional steel jacketed solid bullets for big game hunting all my life , I admittedly am rather ignorant of monolithic solid bullets . I have seen a number of double rifles get their barrels damaged during the 1980s , by firing the original Barnes Super Solids ( unbanded ) and A Square monolithic solid bullets through them . The Barnes monolithic solid was first created in 1980 and the A Square monolithic solid in 1985 . Of course , these monolithic solids were unbanded and made from overtly hard naval bronze . Technology and bullet development have come a long way since then .

I do know that Kreighoff does not recommend firing firing monolithic solids through their double rifles . Neither does Westley Richards or Holland & Holland . But what about the other brands such as Heym or Merkel or John Rigby & Co. ? I know that Verney Carron does provide a warranty for their double rifles to be used with monolithic solids .

I would appreciate any insight on this subject from more of the knowledgeable members of this forum .

With very best wishes ,
Anayeth

 

[Ray B]

In correspondence with Geoff at Woodleigh Bullets, he had information regarding a minimum hardness of the barrel to handle the steel jacketed bullets. I don't recall the numbers however my conclusion was to avoid shooting anything but lead core copper jacketed bullets, although he did say that the hydrostatic solids would be fine. the problem is that the steel and hard brass/bronze bullets push out on the rifling land such that after firing a yet to be determined amount, the exterior of the barrel resembles a barber pole. So all that gets shot in the Rigby C 470NE are Woodleigh SPs and cast bullets- if for no other reason than respect for a 111 year old rifle.

 

[Professor Mawla]

In correspondence with Geoff at Woodleigh Bullets, he had information regarding a minimum hardness of the barrel to handle the steel jacketed bullets. I don't recall the numbers however my conclusion was to avoid shooting anything but lead core copper jacketed bullets, although he did say that the hydrostatic solids would be fine. the problem is that the steel and hard brass/bronze bullets push out on the rifling land such that after firing a yet to be determined amount, the exterior of the barrel resembles a barber pole. So all that gets shot in the Rigby C 470NE are Woodleigh SPs and cast bullets- if for no other reason than respect for a 111 year old rifle.

@Ray B
Thank you very much for enlightening me . Up until today , I was always under the impression that conventional steel jacketed lead core solids were safe to use in even all vintage double rifles . One learns something new everyday .

 

[zephyr]

Here are some pressure tests you might find interesting

B & M Rifles and Cartridges - Barrel Strain Double Rifles

B&M Rifles And Cartridges - Conway, SC B&M Rifles B&M Cartridges 500 MDM, 50 B&M, 458 B&M, 416 B&M, 9.3 B&M, 50 B&M AK, 50 B&M Alaskan 500 Caliber Rifles, .500 caliber, Michael McCourry

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

 

[crs]

And then there bore rider solids like North Fork.
Safe in all barrels.

 

[juan pablo pozzi]

Good evening ;

While corresponding with Mr. Jeff Rann , I recently learnt that Jeff currently uses a William Evans .500 Nitro Express boxlock ejector double rifle and 570 grain Barnes banded monolithic solids . This has gotten me thinking . What brands of double rifles are advertised as being safe with monolithic solid bullets ?

Being a long time user of conventional steel jacketed solid bullets for big game hunting all my life , I admittedly am rather ignorant of monolithic solid bullets . I have seen a number of double rifles get their barrels damaged during the 1980s , by firing the original Barnes Super Solids ( unbanded ) and A Square monolithic solid bullets through them . The Barnes monolithic solid was first created in 1980 and the A Square monolithic solid in 1985 . Of course , these monolithic solids were unbanded and made from overtly hard naval bronze . Technology and bullet development have come a long way since then .

I do know that Kreighoff does not recommend firing firing monolithic solids through their double rifles . Neither does Westley Richards or Holland & Holland . But what about the other brands such as Heym or Merkel or John Rigby & Co. ? I know that Verney Carron does provide a warranty for their double rifles to be used with monolithic solids .

I would appreciate any insight on this subject from more of the knowledgeable members of this forum .

With very best wishes ,
Anayeth

 

[juan pablo pozzi]

I use monolithics in my Chapuis but fellow PHs dont recommend it.

 

[Northern Shooter]

What was the consensus on Merkel doubles, are monolithic solids good to go? I can't find anything saying otherwise on their website.

 

[towserthemouser]

Good evening ;

While corresponding with Mr. Jeff Rann , I recently learnt that Jeff currently uses a William Evans .500 Nitro Express boxlock ejector double rifle and 570 grain Barnes banded monolithic solids . This has gotten me thinking . What brands of double rifles are advertised as being safe with monolithic solid bullets ?

Being a long time user of conventional steel jacketed solid bullets for big game hunting all my life , I admittedly am rather ignorant of monolithic solid bullets . I have seen a number of double rifles get their barrels damaged during the 1980s , by firing the original Barnes Super Solids ( unbanded ) and A Square monolithic solid bullets through them . The Barnes monolithic solid was first created in 1980 and the A Square monolithic solid in 1985 . Of course , these monolithic solids were unbanded and made from overtly hard naval bronze . Technology and bullet development have come a long way since then .

I do know that Kreighoff does not recommend firing firing monolithic solids through their double rifles . Neither does Westley Richards or Holland & Holland . But what about the other brands such as Heym or Merkel or John Rigby & Co. ? I know that Verney Carron does provide a warranty for their double rifles to be used with monolithic solids .

I would appreciate any insight on this subject from more of the knowledgeable members of this forum .

With very best wishes ,
Anayeth

I have a Westley Richards 470NE on order:
New Westley Richards 470NE on order, who wants to hear about it?

Trigger at WR has agreed to regulate my rifle with North Fork FPS in 500 grain. Anticipated delivery of rifle + 500 rounds of loaded ammunition is sometime this year (2025).

I had dinner with him at the recent SCI show in Nashville and I can confirm that he has procured the components and is arranging load development for loaded ammunition, house branded. They will be doing pressure testing, and he indicated he is planning to develop safe loads for several important calibers. I believe he indicated 318WR, 375HH, 470NE and 500NE at least; there were a couple of others but it was a crowded restaurant and I may have missed a couple on the list, since I was primarily interested in the 470.

 

[deewayne2003]

I had an extensive conversation about this with Ken Owen a couple of years back and he said….

“In the old guns you have to test barrel hardness and barrel wall thickness and certainly no mono metals. You’re Sabatti on the other hand has modern high quality 4150 chrome moly barrels so you’re fine.”

Despite having Hornady FMJ Solids as well as Woodleigh FMJ solids, I chose Woodleigh Hydros for my .470ne on my Tuskless hunt in Zimbabwe last July.

I am fortunate though, with the same load my .470 will regulate with my regulation load using both Hornady & Woodleigh bullets as well as Hornady factory loads.

 

[One Day...]

Without re-writing numerous and loquacious posts of years past, it seems that the bottom line is that:

• pure naval bronze (e.g. A Square early Monolithics) were too hard;
• non-banded monometal solids are generally not recommended in thin wall barrels because there is no place to allow the metal pushed by the lands to flow, and the monometal bullets do not compress as lead jacketed bullets (even steel jacketed) do;
• modern (softer) banded monometal solids are generally safe.

When you think of it, banded monometal are semi bore-riders of sorts, AND the grooves between the bands allow the metal to flow under lands compression, thereby dramatically reducing the stress on the barrels.

My personal experience is to have shot early A Square Monolithics (bronze, non-banded) in my pre-WWII Jules Burry good quality belgian double rifle .450 #2, and after a few shots the rifling pattern was discernable on the OUTSIDE of the barrels. I hurriedly stopped...

I note that non-banded monometal solids have essentially disappeared from the market, and I suspect that there is a good reason for that (not withstanding earlier declarations by manufacturers that they were safe)...

 

[SStomcat]

Good evening ;

While corresponding with Mr. Jeff Rann , I recently learnt that Jeff currently uses a William Evans .500 Nitro Express boxlock ejector double rifle and 570 grain Barnes banded monolithic solids . This has gotten me thinking . What brands of double rifles are advertised as being safe with monolithic solid bullets ?

Being a long time user of conventional steel jacketed solid bullets for big game hunting all my life , I admittedly am rather ignorant of monolithic solid bullets . I have seen a number of double rifles get their barrels damaged during the 1980s , by firing the original Barnes Super Solids ( unbanded ) and A Square monolithic solid bullets through them . The Barnes monolithic solid was first created in 1980 and the A Square monolithic solid in 1985 . Of course , these monolithic solids were unbanded and made from overtly hard naval bronze . Technology and bullet development have come a long way since then .

I do know that Kreighoff does not recommend firing firing monolithic solids through their double rifles . Neither does Westley Richards or Holland & Holland . But what about the other brands such as Heym or Merkel or John Rigby & Co. ? I know that Verney Carron does provide a warranty for their double rifles to be used with monolithic solids .

I would appreciate any insight on this subject from more of the knowledgeable members of this forum .

With very best wishes ,
Anayeth

I'm no expert, but this is what Krieghoff replied to my inquiry -

Krieghoff said:
Dear Sir;

Thank you for your inquiry. Generally speaking, yes, you can use solid copper bullets in our Classic Double Rifle. However, it is a hunting gun and not a match rifle and a large number of solid bullets shot through the gun will wear it quicker. We recommend using the soft bullets for target practice and the solid only for hunting.

I hope this helpful!

Thank you!