Double Rifle Sights out to 300 yards?

[Mark A Ouellette]

In the olden days we shot High Power rifle competition with metallic sighted accurized M-14 from 200 to 600 yards with great accuracy. The same iron sighted rifles were also used for 1000 yard competitions. When the Army added scopes to their service rifles similar scopes were allowed in NRA and Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) competitions. For these competitions I was once competitive but my eyesight was much better 40 years ago...

The above stated, even service rifle metallic sights were night and day better than those of an of my double rifles.

For some medium bores perhaps rear sight folding leafs filed for 100, 200, and 300 yard might be useful for something. Maybe. I ran the trajectory for my favorite double rifle, Heym 88B in the mighty .458 Winchester. She regulates well with 470 grain Cutting Edge Safari Raptors at 2150 fps muzzle velocity. These bullets have a ballistic coefficient of .190 which is slightly better than a that of a brick.

Note: The below figures should be similar to other cartridges such as the 470 and 500 NE. 500 grain solids also produce similar results.

Using Shooterscalculator dot com produced the following trajectory tables:

Sighted for 100 yards, my bullets drop 10.49" at 200. I could adjust fire for that pretty accurately.
At 300 yards, those bullets 38.48". I could scare something at that range like a villian in a western movie shooting at the good guy's feet!

My Heym .458 can when I do my part put two bullets from each barrel in a 4" circle at 100 yards.
At very best that would be 8" at 200 yards and 12" at 300 yards. That is with NO wind at all. I might be able to cut that in half with a scope. More likely I coudl average 3" at 100 yards for both barrels.

Even if I could hit a bug critter at long range for those folding leaf sight, muzzle energy for my big, fat, dangerous game bricks is:
100 yds - 4825 ft lbs
200 yds - 2099 ft lbs
300 yds - 1415 ft lbs

200 and 300 yard energy is hardly suitable for dangerous or large, tough plains game.

Considering regulation, accuracy, and double rifle cartridge performance, folding leafs for 200 or more yards is as others have stated, something that looks nice.

 

[rookhawk]

Then be sure and not ever buy an S2 off the used rifle rack.

I in no way mean to cast shade on your S2, but I think even though you chose well, you drew the lucky straw on top of that. I've heard astounding accuracy anecdotes about Blasers, and also with Heyms. On the other hand, I've seen examples that would be best described as "very good accuracy by double rifle standards".

The normative case for a very good modern german double is perhaps 3" group 4-shot groups (R-L, R-L) at 100 meters. Maybe 1:10 can do that in 2" groups. Every once in awhile you get a unicorn that is shooting sub-MOA past 200 meters from the right barrel with a good optic.

ANY of those scenarios is fantastic by my standard because that's minute-of-elephant at 40 paces and will kill any Eland or Kudu at 150 meters too. Beyond those incredible feats we're talking about the exceptional case rather than the normative case in my opinion.

Ultimately, the very best theoretically perfect double rifle suffers the same hinderences to long-range accuracy as a Ruger #1 single shot. Even if everything is perfect from action to muzzle, you've got moving parts, you've got humidity and grip tension of the forend iron effecting shots, and you've got non-free floated barrels creating heat molecularly expanding (bending) the metal covered by the forend at a greater rate than those exposed to the air.

All that nonsense above to say Germans make amazing modern double rifles, but every gun is an individual and there are limitations to how exceptional these guns can actually be made compared to a $1500 blueprinted and free floated Remington 700 bolt gun.

I never had a shot inside of a 120 yards with my old Heym where I worried accuracy would be insufficient. On the other hand my Cogswell and Dakota bolt guns could do the same at double to triple the distances.

 

[Red Leg]

I in no way mean to cast shade on your S2, but I think even though you chose well, you drew the lucky straw on top of that. I've heard astounding accuracy anecdotes about Blasers, and also with Heyms. On the other hand, I've seen examples that would be best described as "very good accuracy by double rifle standards".

The normative case for a very good modern german double is perhaps 3" group 4-shot groups (R-L, R-L) at 100 meters. Maybe 1:10 can do that in 2" groups. Every once in awhile you get a unicorn that is shooting sub-MOA past 200 meters from the right barrel with a good optic.

ANY of those scenarios is fantastic by my standard because that's minute-of-elephant at 40 paces and will kill any Eland or Kudu at 150 meters too. Beyond those incredible feats we're talking about the exceptional case rather than the normative case in my opinion.

Ultimately, the very best theoretically perfect double rifle suffers the same hinderences to long-range accuracy as a Ruger #1 single shot. Even if everything is perfect from action to muzzle, you've got moving parts, you've got humidity and grip tension of the forend iron effecting shots, and you've got non-free floated barrels creating heat molecularly expanding (bending) the metal covered by the forend at a greater rate than those exposed to the air.

All that nonsense above to say Germans make amazing modern double rifles, but every gun is an individual and there are limitations to how exceptional these guns can actually be made compared to a $1500 blueprinted and free floated Remington 700 bolt gun.

I never had a shot inside of a 120 yards with my old Heym where I worried accuracy would be insufficient. On the other hand my Cogswell and Dakota bolt guns could do the same at double to triple the distances.

Mine do it with three different calibers (.30 06, .375. and 500/416) and two different actions and stocks. All six barrels shoot MOA or better for three shots. Pretty amazing "nonsense" from my perspective. There are a couple of other members who have had similar results with their S2's. It is a consistency that I have found with Blaser's R8 as well. Not sure that is a German thing or simply quality design.

I have never stated nor implied that a Heym or Merkel would do the same thing. The one Merkel that I owned was lucky to put four shots into four inches at fifty yards - supposedly the regulated load. It was also ridiculously stiff to open and close. It moved on rather quickly. I have no meaningful experience with a Heym double.

I would not and have not hesitated to take game out to 250 yards with the .375 or 30-06 barrels I would have happily made the same shot at 300 had it been necessary. I would do the same with the 500/416 but have never used in on game in an environment where such a shot would present itself,

All of my Ruger No. 1's are sub or MOA with loads they like. I admit that is only three rifles - a .270, a .300 H&H, and a 7x65R by Heym on a Ruger action.

I will agree that generally a quality bolt action is the most shootable and inherently accurate choice we can make. But at hunting ranges - let's say to 300 yards, I would happily make the shot with my S2's, a Ruger No. 1, R8, or Rigby.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I in no way mean to cast shade on your S2, but I think even though you chose well, you drew the lucky straw on top of that. I've heard astounding accuracy anecdotes about Blasers, and also with Heyms. On the other hand, I've seen examples that would be best described as "very good accuracy by double rifle standards".

My Blaser S2 in 375 H&H also shoots both barrels, 4-shot groups at 100 yards in 2”. That is with a 1-8x scope dialed up to 8x. The funny thing is that rather than working up a load that would regulate, those groups were shot with my 300 gr TSX loads for Jim Kobe Pre-64 M70. I had the same results with the same powder charge topped with factory seconds Speer 285 grain Grand Slams.

My Blaser S2 as I’ve stated previously several times on this forum “Is as ugly as it is accurate”. Maybe it is not so ugly but the S2 is not is a conventional double rifle. Rather the action locks up very tightly and with precision. In fact, I’ve full length resized brass that when loaded the action would not fully close. I figure the chambers are tight or otherwise stated at the minimum of CIP standards for this cartridge. Sounds like a precision target rifle to me!

The S2 barrels are not soldered to top and bottom ribs as traditional double rifles and guns. Instead there are rubber strips in the shape and appearance of conventional metal ribs. The barrels are joined at the monoblock and with a flange that appears to clamps to one barrel to the other at the muzzle. There is also an adjustable wedge between the barrels and under the forward portion of the forend that maintains tension on the barrels. This wedge has three allen screws for adjustment of barrel regulation. There are YouTube videos on user regulating an S2 so I won’t attempt to explain this. I will say that if my rifle needed re-regulation, I would do it myself only after watching those videos a half dozen times each and taking notes. I would allow several days to for my first try to regulating an S2. After that, a couple hours should be sufficient. As my late father would say, “You never make any money on your first try”.

The barrels are part of or joined to the monoblock, with a tension wedge nearly halfway between the breach and muzzles, and a flange or clamp that holds the muzzles in place. Comparing this design to a bolt action rifle with a properly bedded action and free floated barrel, one would not expect the same degree of accuracy. But in comparison to a conventional double rifle with top and bottom ribs soldered to both barrels that would dampen any barrel vibration, oscillation, or “ringing”, the S2 barrels should be unhindered to delivery better accuracy. If all else is equal, the design of the S2 should be between a bolt action and conventional double rifle in terms of accuracy. Mine certainly is!

PS: The center of the bores of my .375 S2 a a tad over 1.1"apart.
- Allowing that each barrel shoots 1 MOA or slightly over 1" at 100 yard groups, 1/2" is half distance across the average group.
- a double rifle that regulates and is accurate enough to shoot 2" groups at 100 yards, may in fact in theory shoot 3" groups at 200 yards. That is if the regulation is for the average trajectory or path of bullets from each barrel being parallel from muzzle to infinity.
- Add to that one half of the doubling of a 100 yard 1" group, or 1/2" to the outward sides of the combined groups at 200 yards, the 2" 100 yard group would be 3" at 200 yards. Okay, not likely but in theroy it is possible.

 

[rookhawk]

My Blaser S2 in 375 H&H also shoots both barrels, 4-shot groups at 100 yards in 2”. That is with a 1-8x scope dialed up to 8x. The funny thing is that rather than working up a load that would regulate, those groups were shot with my 300 gr TSX loads for Jim Kobe Pre-64 M70. I had the same results with the same powder charge topped with factory seconds Speer 285 grain Grand Slams.

My Blaser S2 as I’ve stated previously several times on this forum “Is as ugly as it is accurate”. Maybe it is not so ugly but the S2 is not is a conventional double rifle. Rather the action locks up very tightly and with precision. In fact, I’ve full length resized brass that when loaded the action would not fully close. I figure the chambers are tight or otherwise stated at the minimum of CIP standards for this cartridge. Sounds like a precision target rifle to me!

The S2 barrels are not soldered to top and bottom ribs as traditional double rifles and guns. Instead there are rubber strips in the shape and appearance of conventional metal ribs. The barrels are joined at the monoblock and with a flange that appears to clamps to one barrel to the other at the muzzle. There is also an adjustable wedge between the barrels and under the forward portion of the forend that maintains tension on the barrels. This wedge has three allen screws for adjustment of barrel regulation. There are YouTube videos on user regulating an S2 so I won’t attempt to explain this. I will say that if my rifle needed re-regulation, I would do it myself only after watching those videos a half dozen times each and taking notes. I would allow several days to for my first try to regulating an S2. After that, a couple hours should be sufficient. As my late father would say, “You never make any money on your first try”.

The barrels are part of or joined to the monoblock, with a tension wedge nearly halfway between the breach and muzzles, and a flange or clamp that holds the muzzles in place. Comparing this design to a bolt action rifle with a properly bedded action and free floated barrel, one would not expect the same degree of accuracy. But in comparison to a conventional double rifle with top and bottom ribs soldered to both barrels that would dampen any barrel vibration, oscillation, or “ringing”, the S2 barrels should be unhindered to delivery better accuracy. If all else is equal, the design of the S2 should be between a bolt action and conventional double rifle in terms of accuracy. Mine certainly is!

PS: The center of the bores of my .375 S2 a a tad over 1.1"apart.
- Allowing that each barrel shoots 1 MOA or slightly over 1" at 100 yard groups, 1/2" is half distance across the average group.
- a double rifle that regulates and is accurate enough to shoot 2" groups at 100 yards, may in fact in theory shoot 3" groups at 200 yards. That is if the regulation is for the average trajectory or path of bullets from each barrel being parallel from muzzle to infinity.
- Add to that one half of the doubling of a 100 yard 1" group, or 1/2" to the outward sides of the combined groups at 200 yards, the 2" 100 yard group would be 3" at 200 yards. Okay, not likely but in theroy it is possible.

Thanks for the education on how they're made @Mark A Ouellette . I knew about the regulating wedge being a bolt at the muzzle, but I wasn't aware of the rubber "false ribs". That makes sense as it gets closer to free floating. Could you please elaborate more on how the forend attaches? That's the part that I don't understand very well and I'd think would be the weak link like it is on other double rifles and single shots.

P.S.- Yes, in theory you could get parallel to infinity or a 4" group at 200 yards if you have a 2" group at 100 yards, but more likely than not you'll get convergence somewhere. (e.g. maybe 1 hole at 100 yards, 4" group at 150 yards?)

P.P.S. - Yes, they are a "fugly" design that takes some getting used to, but their engraving and lines are FAR better than K-guns with their cartoony scroll work, yet the masses think Krieghoffs are incredible. The strangest aesthetics for me to get used to are the rotating block at the breach face and the schnabel forend. I could probably get over the rotating block, but the forend is a struggle for me. I now understand that its essential for sling attachment since the ribs aren't secure enough to hold a sling being rubberized.

P.P.P.S. - I've seen some very nice ones for sale for $16ish with about $10ish of engraving included, a man could do worse things with his money.

P.P.P.P.S. - I still love Heyms.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

@rookhawk perhaps you would like to see a little more detail on an S2?

This is my S2 but some of the photos were shot prior to me buying her. She is rather unadorned but otherwise built for speed!
- The scope mounts on the very rigid monoblock similar to Blaser R8's where scopes mount above the chamber.

This shows the bottom of the monoblock/barrel flats in the left and a portion of the barrel regulation wedge on the right.

This shows the regulation wedge with the lug/boss for the sling swivel to the right. Further right is the rubber bottom rib.
- Also notice the flange surrounding the muzzles.

This shows the under side of the barrels with the bottom rubber rib removed.
The silver metal between the barrels is the bottom of the metal top rib.

Photo of top rib which is metal flanked by rubber strips.

See, rubber strips!

Photo of the bottom on barrel wedge to right with forend lug/boss with hiole for sling swivel.

Flange that holds the muzzles in place. I believe if memory serves me, to adjust the vertical regulation of the barrels, the Torx screw is loosened and the barrels are rotated ever so slightly... Oh boy would that be fun!

This is my rifle today with Blaser scope mount and Leupold VX-6 1-6x scope.

I've wanted a Dakota Traveler take down .375 H&H but always missed them by that much... Heck, I have an accurate two-shot take down rifle!

Oh, I have a Heym 88B, Krieghoff Classic, and this Blaser S2. What more could a man need...
Note: The Blaser S2 in the photo below sports a Talley universal scope mount for Blasers. It sits the scope a little to high.