Double rifle safeties

[VertigoBE]

An interesting attribute of many of the modern hammer guns is that they have a safety just like a hammerless. My Lucchini 20 hammer gun, built in the nineties, is so equipped. It has sear intercept safety just like any quality sidelock and can be used exactly the same way. You can see the safety slide at the top of the action.View attachment 575920

Thanks for sharing this beautiful gun with us.
Just so I have understood it correctly:

- The hammers function like the cocker/decocker on the K-guns
- Once the hammers are back, cocked, another more typical slide safety can be used

Do modern hammer double rifles exist in DG calibers?

V.

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks for sharing this beautiful gun with us.
Just so I have understood it correctly:

- The hammers function like the cocker/decocker on the K-guns
- Once the hammers are back, cocked, another more typical slide safety can be used

Do modern hammer double rifles exist in DG calibers?

V.

Actually it more closely resembles a modern sidelock, but with the added feature of manual locks. In other words, I can have the gun loaded, cocked, and on safe approaching a covey of birds and it is in exactly the same firing condition as the Holland & Holland Royal my hunting partner is carrying. It is just that you can see the hammers of this gun while the Royal's are hidden by the side plates.

 

[Nevada Mike]

At trap or sporting clay shoots or silhouette matches the etiquette is to carry your firearm with the muzzle in the air. If a shotgun goes off with the muzzle down the shot could ricochet off the concrete pad.
Similarly when quail hunting, carrying muzzle down often points it directly at a dog.

At all the clubs and competitions that I have attended the etiquette is to carry your firearm broken open and unloaded until you step into the box or skeet station. A vertical muzzle carry implies a closed gun that is not visibly unloaded.

When I am bird hunting I walk for miles and my dogs are a good distance in front of me, searching for birds. Approaching a dog on point is almost always done moving up to one side of the point for safety reasons and to avoid putting pressure on the dog, possibly causing it to break point. I have found that carrying muzzle up at port arms results in mounting the gun with the muzzle moving down, exactly opposite to the direction the birds are flying. Carrying muzzle pointed down is safe (no concrete pads where I bird hunt) and allows a faster, more intuitive mount on rising birds. YMMV.

Nobody I have hunted with carries their shotgun pointed vertically over miles of terrain.

Quail hunting (and bird hunting in general) can be dangerous, but the danger is mainly from lack of muzzle control at the flush of a covey. Pick your hunting partners with care.

 

[Altitude sickness]

One benefit I like with exposed hammers is the ability for everyone to see what condition I’m carrying it in. Cocked or uncocked.

 

[Daisy]

I hunt a lot of quail, and I have never been asked to walk up to a covey with an open gun. Were a guide to require that, I would find another guide. Likewise, I am not going the walk about dangerous game country with an unloaded double. I should note that I have never been asked to that either.

There are basically two types of safeties employed in doubles. I'll come back to the K-Gun in a moment. Trigger blocking safeties are the cheapest for the gun manufacturer and least "safe." They do exactly what the name implies. They can not prevent a hammer slipping from a sear and falling due to a dropped firearm or something similar.

Intercepting safeties, intercept the sear preventing the fall of the hammer under almost any conceivable condition when engaged. Such safeties are easy to spot on most boxlocks by the small pin (screw) on either side of the upper edge of the action fence.

As @1peggy correctly notes, the cocking slide on a S2, R8, and K-Gun is, with just a bit of practice, is about as easy to manipulate as any other gun while bringing the rifle to the shoulder.

What really puzzles me is why anyone would carry a rifle differently in Africa than he does in North America or Europe. That vast majority of us use slings and we have trained ourselves well to be very careful managing our rifles while using one. Why on earth change to go follow a cape buffalo? I frankly think the African carry is more about looking the part than any practical value. In Africa I carry my S2 just like I carry my R8 Muzzle down over the left shoulder - left hand on the forearm. It comes up instantly and is always out of the way of brush. A rather well respected PH by the name of Len Taylor uses the same carry.

So I’m with you. Never seen that and I’ve hunted quail 100’s of times.

That said, I know of two people hit with shot bird hunting (never on my hunts). It happens. There is some danger to it imo.

 

[VertigoBE]

Actually it more closely resembles a modern sidelock, but with the added feature of manual locks. In other words, I can have the gun loaded, cocked, and on safe approaching a covey of birds and it is in exactly the same firing condition as the Holland & Holland Royal my hunting partner is carrying. It is just that you can see the hammers of this gun while the Royal's are hidden by the side plates.

Picking this back up @Red Leg :
I'm trying to figure the operations on such a modern hammer rifle:

- When the gun is loaded, hammers uncocked. In what position would the safety have to be, or it does not matter?
- in this position, irrespective if the safety is on or off, can you cock the hammer(s) anyway?
- Would the following series of operations be possible:
1. you get out of the truck, pluck two rounds from your belt, break the gun, and close the action. I suppose that the rifle now has the hammers cocked and safety off.
2. you carefully uncock the hammers one by one (by I suppose holding the hammer with the thumb and pulling the trigger?) As asked above, I do not know if the safety is supposed to be on or off by this stage?
3. You start the track for a few miles, with a loaded, but uncocked rifle (unknown safety). Once you get to the final yards where the magic happens, you pull back the hammers (one by one I suppose) and put the safety slide on (if not already the case).
4. Quarry is observed, safety is un-engaged and shots are fired.
5. As the (buffalo) is not feeling very cooperative today, more rounds are needed. So the double hammer gun is broken open, (I suppose automatic ejectors), two more rounds are dropped in, action is closed, hammers are cocked automatically by the closing of the action and the safety remains off (non-automatic safety) and two more rounds sail through the air, hopefully reaching their intended target.

I'm basically trying to figure out if a modern hammer double rifle would be a good alternative in its operations, compared to a Blaser S2, Krieghoff, Merkel, etc. Biggest disadvantage I see is that the cocking happens one by one. The advantages would be, a nicer looking rifle along the line of the British guns would be a possibility , where more attention to balance and handling can be applied than is the case for the aforementioned continental style double rifles. Also an added safety bonus is that everyone can see from afar if you are cocked or not. And for those with problems pushing the cockor forward on a Krieghoff/Blaser, the fact of cocking one by one, should halve the force necessary. As well as having more leverage I suppose.

Last thing, how silent is the cocking of the hammers on your example?

Thanks a lot!

Cheers,

V.

 

[HankBuck]

Its a good question and as much as everyone is saying they never sweep over somebody you can watch youtube with big names and there is always that moment.

I'm not a big fan of the african carry and use my sling even after DG I just pull the sling to run along the rifle not to catch branches and such. I have both hands free to use my binos or use them to climb over and up difficult terrain especially when hunting mountain and koppies.

Sometimes after a long walk I will carry my rifle in my hand with barrel down and hand over the closed action.

The decocking safety of the doubles are to get use to but it works when we do BASA shoots the gents who have them have no trouble using them.

@Frederik: Agree —- Everyone might say they “never sweep” their barrel towards anyone… but Everyone does —- at some point —- because No One is “perfect” 100% of the time. The only thing more common then a lack of Muzzle awareness is a lack of “Self Awareness”.

 

[1peggy]

Once you get familiar with the Krieghoff it becomes second nature.

No one wants to careless but you may be overthinking this. When I was Zim in October the PH worried more about the tracker with my Model 70 than me with my Krieghoff.

Same here. My PH had me carry my Model 70 375 and the tracker carry my Krieghoff.

 

[Nhoro]

All mechanical safeties can malfunction, it goes with the territory. Simply put, I do not want to shoot someone by accident. So ...
1. Muzzle direction is your most important safety. If a sling is your best muzzle control device, use one. I would rather be run over by an elephant than shoot someone by accident. Break into my house and you are fair game but an innocent person....
2. Blaser and Krieghoff cocking mechanism. This could fail I guess but only in the action of taking the shot. Definitely the safest safety.
3. Mauser type flag safety- it locks the firing pin so is marginally safer than sear and trigger block but I checked a rifle in a gunshop, took off the safety and the firing pin dropped, easily fixed but just shows the safety can go wrong.
4. Sear locking- Marginally better than trigger safety only because it is 1 less mechanical connection that can go wrong.
5. Trigger safety.

Double rifles are primarily 4 and 5. I carry my CZ 550 ( trigger safety ) on safe on a sling if I am walking up to DG or if I am in thick bush. If I am walking with experienced people ie anti poaching or my two boys, I often carry an empty chamber. As a client, do what your PH asks, usually loaded and on safe. Then do not cover anyone with your barrels. So that rules out PH carry and is a strong suggestion for a sling with QD mounts. Also test your safety regularly, put in a dummy round and bang your rifle around. I also checked my trigger/ sear overlap and adjusted it to ensure good overlap. It can make the trigger a bit creepy but mine is good enough for accurate shooting- not going to benchrest it anyway .

 

[IvW]

2. Cannot fail if un cocked....

 

[HankBuck]

All mechanical safeties can malfunction, it goes with the territory. Simply put, I do not want to shoot someone by accident. So ...
1. Muzzle direction is your most important safety. If a sling is your best muzzle control device, use one. I would rather be run over by an elephant than shoot someone by accident. Break into my house and you are fair game but an innocent person....
2. Blaser and Krieghoff cocking mechanism. This could fail I guess but only in the action of taking the shot. Definitely the safest safety.
3. Mauser type flag safety- it locks the firing pin so is marginally safer than sear and trigger block but I checked a rifle in a gunshop, took off the safety and the firing pin dropped, easily fixed but just shows the safety can go wrong.
4. Sear locking- Marginally better than trigger safety only because it is 1 less mechanical connection that can go wrong.
5. Trigger safety.

Double rifles are primarily 4 and 5. I carry my CZ 550 ( trigger safety ) on safe on a sling if I am walking up to DG or if I am in thick bush. If I am walking with experienced people ie anti poaching or my two boys, I often carry an empty chamber. As a client, do what your PH asks, usually loaded and on safe. Then do not cover anyone with your barrels. So that rules out PH carry and is a strong suggestion for a sling with QD mounts. Also test your safety regularly, put in a dummy round and bang your rifle around. I also checked my trigger/ sear overlap and adjusted it to ensure good overlap. It can make the trigger a bit creepy but mine is good enough for accurate shooting- not going to benchrest it anyway .

@Nhoro: I would think most (or All) on this AH forum fully understand Gun Safety and if Not - there is a 10 page “reminder” now included with every New gun sold.
While very few Hunters will have an accidental discharge - All with have a “safety error” at some point ie: muzzle sweep etc. But striving for perfection remains a proper goal

 

[Nhoro]

2. Cannot fail if un cocked....

Decocking removes spring tension on the firing pin. It does not immobilise the firing pin. It also relies on the trigger to take up the firing pin and hold it during the cocking procedure. So if your trigger mechanism fails or pull the trigger during cocking it goes bang A number of people have accidentally fired Blasers while cocking or decocking - general consensus is they use the trigger as leverage.

Your choice- if you are happy with a guy pointing his decocked rifle at you all day then carry on. As for me and my house, I will treat all safeties as fallible, as a help but never 100 %