Double rifle moral dilemma

[degoins]

Get what you really want to start with. You won't regret it. You will never feel the recoil of the .470 when you shoot it at game. besides, if you try hard enough, I'm sure you can come up with a light bullet load that will regulate for some less expensive shooting.

 

[Nyati]

9,3x62, ideal for the largest game in Europe, and for most game in Africa.

 

[grand veneur]

9,3x62, ideal for the largest game in Europe, and for most game in Africa.

It certainly is. That's why It would be better for an aspiring hunter to buy a double rifle caliber 9,3x74R. Buying a DR caliber 470 Nitro Express and believing that one can temporarily use it in Europe is rather illusory for me. Things like that don't work in my countries. Maybe things look different in Italy, I don't now. Whether you will have fun at long term with a big bore rifle that you bought just for fun is also not certain. I speak from personal experience because there are a lot of things in my gun safe that rarely leave it. Expensive pleasure in the long term.

 

[Roland Tembo]

Just like @SFRanger7GP wrote, that’s the exact situation: I can grab a Merkel 140 in .470 NE for cheaper than other listings in 9,3x74R (surely more abused too, I am speaking of second hand market).

At the moment I am really prone towards the .470 NE, I am not an handloader but few people suggested to tune down the loads and sounds great for opening to some driven game possibilities and use the gun from time to time, but maybe barrels are gonna regulate like shit this way, I don’t know.

Point is I can always pick red stag and wild boar with my .270 Winchester magazine rifle just as well as I probably would with a 9,3x74R double rifle… and this applies to .470 NE too, since I’ve yet to meet an animal too much dead… on the other hand, getting yet another non-big bore gun when I have the chance seems to be a waste if I’ll ever go get some DG…

 

[PerH]

Thread 'The Guns of Bengt Berg used in India, Africa, Europe'
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/the-guns-of-bengt-berg-used-in-india-africa-europe.63301/


One could take the .470 set and Get a smaller set on basqule to go with it .

 

[rookhawk]

I like double rifles.

Let’s say I could grab a .470 NE double rifle for the same amount or even less money than the same gun from the same manufacturer in 9,3x74R.

I’d love, but it’s not into plans at the moment, to go to Africa (out of budget, for what I want).

So the .470 NE would be just a gun for dreaming, at least for quite some while. On the opposite hand, the 9,3x74R could be helping me if I decide to start hunting red stags or driven wild boars (biggest game available around Europe).

I’d love to have at least one gun capable to pick any game on planet Earth. The fact the 9,3x74R is not legal for big game hunting in some african countries really turns me down, especially when the guns would cost me about the same.

I know the .470 NE is just too much for my local fauna: factory loads cost x3 times a 9,3x74R round; 500 gr vs 286 gr also makes a whole lot of difference… and last thing I want is to buy me a “corpse” into my gun closet.

But elephants apart, I’ve seen warthogs blasted on the spot with a .470 NE so… why shouldn’t I pick the .470 NE, dream of Africa, and in the while maybe once or twice a year use the .470 against red stags or wild boars when I need a stopper costing me 15€ per round?

A 470NE is a life-or-death firearm. I’d need to know which 470 NE make you’re comparing to a 9.3x74r alternative.

You can cut corners on quality for a 9.3 and enjoy its use. Worst case scenario, you ruin a hunt. Not a big deal. But a 470NE needs to work every time flawlessly.

Restating it differently, the quality required of a 470NE must be of a far higher quality than that required of a 9.3x74r.

 

[spike.t]

I am with Red Leg on this one...

The .470 will feed the dream. That is what my first double, a Belgian Jules Burry in .450 #2 did. I resold it 20 years later, after finally burying Denys Finch Hatton and realizing that I would never "have a farm in Africa" (Karen von Blixen-Finecke), and before I ever went to Africa... But I LOVED the countless evenings I read Patterson, Bell, Hemingway, Taylor, Ruark, Capstick, Harland, Hunter, Percival, Nyschens, Holmberg, Kinloch, Henley, Manners, et al. with it within grasp on the gun rack...

Then life (i.e. getting the 5 kids through college and out of the house) made it possible to go to Africa. I immediately bought my second double, a Krieghoff .470. I hunted Buffalo, Elephant, and Lion with it. I DID shoot one Buffalo with it, but subsequent Buffalo, and Elephant, and Lion, I hunted - i.e. carried for days on - with the .470, but I shot with my backup (on the shoulder of a tracker) scoped Blaser R8 with .375 H&H or .458 Lott barrels.

I have now sold my .470 K Gun because I shoot the R8 thousands of times more than I could EVER shoot the .470 (I have both .223 Rem and .22 LR practice R8 barrels in addition to .458 Lott, .375 H&H, .300 Wby, .257 Wby R8 barrels) and my muscle memory is with the R8.

I will go Red Leg on more step, which I suspect he will back me on: I suggest, Roland Tembo, that you buy a Blaser R8 in 9.3x62. You can then add later whatever you want/need. Will you go after Camoscio (Chamois) in the Alps or Dolomites? .270 or .257 Wby barrel! Will you go after Kudu in the Karoo? .300 Win or Wby barrel! Will you go after Elephant in the Chewore? .416 Rem or .458 Lott barrel! Will you need one rifle to do it all on Buffalo and PG in the Moyowosi? .375 H&H barrel! Will you go on a Wildschwein (Wild Boar) drive in the Black Forest? 9.3x62 barrel! Do you need to train your shooting skills? In a city shooting gallery? .22 LR barrel! At a shooting range? .223 Rem or .222 Rem barrel!

When everything is said and done, yes the double will give you a slightly faster second shot, but the R8 will give a light-year faster third and fourth shot... not to mention the ideal caliber for nearly anything you may want to hunt anywhere...

Many of us have filled entire racks and even rooms with rifles, often prestigious and mythical, and end up only grabbing for the R8 when we actually go hunting seriously...

End of Last paragraph definitely doesn't apply to me.....just saying

 

[spike.t]

I would go for the 9.3x74r...one of my favourite calibres....shot buff and down with it....if you go the 470 route I think the novelty will wear off fast trying to use it on driven boar and general European hunting...I presume you haven't used bigger calibre rifles, so I think the dream is going to end up in disappointment....basically you are going to get a load more usage out of a 9.3x74r than a 470....and loading for a double is totally different than for a bolt action rifle....doubles are regulated for a specific load.....but if it's what you really want then go for the 470...just accept its not going to be what you imagined it would be when you use it for what you intend in Europe

 

[Green Chile]

For all of the talk about reduced loads in double rifles, it’s a road of trouble for many. You can re-regulate most doubles but the odds of having one shoot both regular and reduced loads satisfactorily isn’t as likely. It’s very advanced gun work in most cases.

 

[Safari Dave]

I got my .470 in June of 2001, finally took it to Africa in 2021.


You can download it and hunt anything you want.

 

[PARA45]

Buy yourself a bolt action 375 H&H or 416 Rigby, RM, etc, and with $$$ you were going to use on the doable, take it and go hunt Africa. Simple. That’s what I would do.

 

[Green Chile]

Buy yourself a bolt action 375 H&H or 416 Rigby, RM, etc, and with $$$ you were going to use on the doable, take it and go hunt Africa. Simple. That’s what I would do.

There you go being all logical again...

 

[AZDAVE]

Understand your passion vs logic on the doubles you are considering. Having owned and shot doubles from 7x65R to 577NE. You can down load but it takes ALOT of patience to find a load that will shoot to the regulation of the barrels. And you may never find a good load. If you have no plans already in the works to books a DG african trip in the next two years? You would be much better served with the 9.3 (That is my favorite rifle in the safe)! Is it possible for you to travel to one of the Italian or German company's that are making fine doubles and see if you can try a rifle in each caliber to determine what rifle you would really want. Also don't discount O/U doubles. In Europe they are much more common than here in the US, are generally about 40% cheaper and easier to develop good loads for.

 

[Green Chile]

Dave knows what he's talking about and he's about as stubborn...uh, passionate about doubles as anyone. He also has helped several forum members regulate their doubles with his reloading. If he says it's tricky, you can bank on it.

 

[Pondoro]

For all of the talk about reduced loads in double rifles, it’s a road of trouble for many. You can re-regulate most doubles but the odds of having one shoot both regular and reduced loads satisfactorily isn’t as likely. It’s very advanced gun work in most cases.

To put it bluntly...a .470 is useless for european hunting...I have double rifles in both 9.3 x 74R and .470...I would not dream of using the .470 in Europe.

 

[Philip Glass]

I like double rifles.

Let’s say I could grab a .470 NE double rifle for the same amount or even less money than the same gun from the same manufacturer in 9,3x74R.

I’d love, but it’s not into plans at the moment, to go to Africa (out of budget, for what I want).

So the .470 NE would be just a gun for dreaming, at least for quite some while. On the opposite hand, the 9,3x74R could be helping me if I decide to start hunting red stags or driven wild boars (biggest game available around Europe).

I’d love to have at least one gun capable to pick any game on planet Earth. The fact the 9,3x74R is not legal for big game hunting in some african countries really turns me down, especially when the guns would cost me about the same.

I know the .470 NE is just too much for my local fauna: factory loads cost x3 times a 9,3x74R round; 500 gr vs 286 gr also makes a whole lot of difference… and last thing I want is to buy me a “corpse” into my gun closet.

But elephants apart, I’ve seen warthogs blasted on the spot with a .470 NE so… why shouldn’t I pick the .470 NE, dream of Africa, and in the while maybe once or twice a year use the .470 against red stags or wild boars when I need a stopper costing me 15€ per round?

Pick the .470 and dream of Africa!

 

[Roland Tembo]

A 470NE is a life-or-death firearm. I’d need to know which 470 NE make you’re comparing to a 9.3x74r alternative.

I said in a later post, both DR are Merkel 140... so, top notch gunmaker.
It's not just a random maker's .470 NE, quality issues should not be of concern.

For all of the talk about reduced loads in double rifles, it’s a road of trouble for many. You can re-regulate most doubles but the odds of having one shoot both regular and reduced loads satisfactorily isn’t as likely. It’s very advanced gun work in most cases.

I would never touch the OEM barrel regulation if I not have to... I want the gun to shoot well full power cartridges, reduced load would be just a palliative...

Dave knows what he's talking about and he's about as stubborn...uh, passionate about doubles as anyone. He also has helped several forum members regulate their doubles with his reloading. If he says it's tricky, you can bank on it.

... and trusting Dave, actually I am not even thinking of handloading anymore at this point.
Again, since I've yet to meet an animal too much dead, I'd just throw in some full load charges if I ever decide to take the gun on some european big game hunting.

 

[Inline6]

Why not meet in the middle and go 375 flanged? A little big for Europe, legal for Africa.

Just a thought.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I still haven't been to SA.

But really enjoyed & still don't regret purchasing/owning big doubles.

 

[Foxi]

.470 NE : € 20 - 25.- per piece not € 15.-
If you get them at all.
9.3x74R without question, unless you collect.

M.S.said
big gun means worst shooting.