Double Rifle Misconceptions

I don't think the weight of the human goes into it much if at all. Otherwise, none of the used rifles would be even close to their original regulation. For example my Heym .500 NE was owned by a guy that was 60 lbs heavier than I and he bought it at the SCI show. Regulation is still under an inch with me shooting it with Hornady ammo.

It’s a minor but valid variable, tanks. As is the balance of the gun, and even the weight or simply the flexibility of the recoil pad. Putting them all together, it’s “stacking tolerances”. One of the first things a good load developer will tell you if they are loading for your double, or if they are re-regulating the wedge, is that your shooting of the gun may not reproduce their results. This could be by your size, how tightly you hold the gun, how much you honor or fight muzzle rise, etc.

They are an art, not a science. Hence, CNC cannot solve the regulation by throwing math at the problems of regulation.
 
To start off a topic with the idea that something cannot be done is to admit defeat before the start. CNC could be used to make all but the parts of a DR and afix all but the second barrel. Technology would come in by designing the second barrel attachments so that it is adjustable by subsequent owners/gunsmiths. The sights on the rifle could be aligned with the right barrel then the point of impact of the left barrel could be adjusted to the POI of the right barrel. There is a lot of push generated by cartridges such as the 470NE, but developing a system that would hold firm to it while having the ability to be adjusted is what research and development does.
 
Forces that I understand that come into play when a rifle is fired: recoil, torque, barrel lift, and more ...?
 
Off the direction this thread is currently headed but does anyone know if @DUGABOY1 is still with us? His posts on small caliber doubles were how I originally found my way onto the site.
 
Would the consumer know the difference?

One of the chief benefits of CNC machining is the computer can be programmed to detect when the machine is wore out and needs parts replaced. With hand machining the customer has to rely on the machinist and his ability (or willingness) to check for deviation caused by excessive wear. Theoretically, we should prefer CNC machined guns produced entirely by robots and computers. Theoretically, they should be better made ... and cheaper. Never heard of a CNC machine striking for higher wages.
I try very hard not to talk outside of my knowledge base.

I do not consider myself a machinist. I have drawn pay as one, but I have had the privilege to associate with the real McCoy and know the difference.

Computers cannot be programmed to detect when a “ machine” is ”wore out” they have to have input other than programming to detect. CNC and manual machines are still limited to the limits of the machinist or operator running them. Period. Most of the wear to be compensated for is cutting tool wear. Machine wear is a factor, it can be compensated for. That is another can of worms. Some of the wear parts are integral to the machine. You have to buy new or have the machine rebuilt.
All parts made on a machine tool have tolerances + or -. The closer to zero you specify, the higher the cost per part.

As stated by @rookhawk, there is no machine you can push a button and have not only a double rifle, or any rifle come out the other end. The demand has to make production economical or it doesn’t happen. Gearing up for CNC and robotic production for a short run still has to cover very significant cost.

Your self professed favorite guns never saw any CNC machines @Ontario Hunter .

I bought a high quality 1911 from a well known very high quality manufacturer a few years back. I was privileged to sign up for a tour of the facility. Yes, this has been a few years ago. CNC production was very much a part of the fine product. The human element could not be discounted.

The Best guns were finished by their finest gunsmiths.
 
Last edited:
@Red Leg
The more I know, the more aware I become of how much I dont know.
This realization teaches me modesty.
 
... I'm sure there's a hundred other guys on this forum that can shoot better than you. :D :D :D
Oh, you are hurting my feeeelings now. And here I thought these forums were my safe space. :unsure: :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Also, I am not the one that has been bragging about his alleged shooting prowess ad infinitum at every possible thread. :rolleyes:
 
It is interesting. I have been reading posts here for a few years. We are blessed to dialogue with men and women who have hunted literally all over the world. Many have taken hundreds of different game animals in a host of different environments. Still others, some of whom are the same people, shoot thousands of rounds of sporting clays, competitive pigeons, and/or game birds each year. Still others have spent time in combat, utilizing weapons in a far different and somewhat more consequential way.

Of those remarkably diverse and experienced people, I can't think of one who feels compelled to brag about his shooting ability or make assumptions about guns or rifles about which he has no personal experience - or worse, to make assumptions about the abilities, experiences, or knowledge of other contributors. The people about whom I speak are those who have seen and done enough to fully realize there is a great deal they do not yet know.

I certainly learn something almost every time I open this site.

I agree. It is a great pleasure to learn from the vast knowledge that the folks who are on this site are graciously willing to provide. Even though I have hunted all over the globe for many years it is certainly a humbling experience to realize how much I still have to learn.
 
I try very hard not to talk outside of my knowledge base.

I do not consider myself a machinist. I have drawn pay as one, but I have had the privilege to associate with the real McCoy and know the difference.

Computers cannot be programmed to detect when a “ machine” is ”wore out” they have to have input other than programming to detect. CNC and manual machines are still limited to the limits of the machinist or operator running them. Period. Most of the wear to be compensated for is cutting tool wear. Machine wear is a factor, it can be compensated for. That is another can of worms. Some of the wear parts are integral to the machine. You have to buy new or have the machine rebuilt.
All parts made on a machine tool have tolerances + or -. The closer to zero you specify, the higher the cost per part.

As stated by @rookhawk, there is no machine you can push a button and have not only a double rifle, or any rifle come out the other end. The demand has to make production economical or it doesn’t happen. Gearing up for CNC and robotic production for a short run still has to cover very significant cost.

Your self professed favorite guns never saw any CNC machines @Ontario Hunter .

I bought a high quality 1911 from a well known very high quality manufacturer a few years back. I was privileged to sign up for a tour of the facility. Yes, this has been a few years ago. CNC production was very much a part of the fine product. The human element could not be discounted.

The Best guns were finished by their finest gunsmiths.
I never said a new CNC gun is or would be my "favorite". My deep attachment to my Springfield has little to do with the quality of manufacture or, in this case, remanufacture. My dad's hands, and now my own hands, made it what it is.

By all accounts the quality of CNC machining surpasses the quality per unit of time to manufacture of mass produced manual noncomputerized mass produced guns. CNC mass produced guns are a shortcut. An artsan custom gunsmith can still produce finely finished guns ... that are typically beyond the means of the unwashed masses. Formerly, the remedy for gun makers after 1950 was using parts that were cast, stamped, plastic, etc. Use as little labor intensive machining as possible. CNC has allowed manufacturers to produce mostly if not entirely quality machined guns at much more reduced prices.
 
... and the mere fact that we can have two "perfect" barrels that by themselves are way sub-MOA capable, then we have to join them together with all the stresses involved to do it as a pair. THAT'S where the hand fitting comes into play... By-the-by, do, or should D/R barrels have opposing twists??
Interesting point.
 
I always enjoy these threads spiraling out of control…I myself am happy to occasionally connect on an animal and happy when everything works out.
Happy Sunday (Tanzania Time Zone) jumping on the charter for bush camp in the Selous.

HH
Lucky bastard! How is that I may become so lucky as to be a PH? Always was my dream since I was first able to read about the greats such as Baker, Hunter, Rauch, Selous, Bell (and more), and of course PHC...my other dream to be a pro pilot I achieved..somewhat. But your still a lucky bastard! :)
 
Interesting point.

I've shot a couple old English doubles that by no means did both barrels shoot good groups. Generally speaking the right barrel is shot more, so maybe worn more, but even on a evenly worn gun I've seen one barrel shoot 4 inch group and the other 1.5. You just can't control the metal at that level. I've had brand new barrels be turds...and a turd is a turd no matter how much you polish it. :)
 
To start off a topic with the idea that something cannot be done is to admit defeat before the start. CNC could be used to make all but the parts of a DR and afix all but the second barrel. Technology would come in by designing the second barrel attachments so that it is adjustable by subsequent owners/gunsmiths. The sights on the rifle could be aligned with the right barrel then the point of impact of the left barrel could be adjusted to the POI of the right barrel. There is a lot of push generated by cartridges such as the 470NE, but developing a system that would hold firm to it while having the ability to be adjusted is what research and development does.
Sorry to drag up an old thread.
Was thinking about the above. With different twist right/left I think this would only work if you fired them both at the same time. What was it that old falla said about for every action there’s a reaction?
 
Double Rifle Misconception

The mention of barrel harmonics though it does exist it is not a basic factor where double rifles are concerned. Individual barrel harmonics do not play a much part in the regulations, and is not important in a double rifle. The reason is the barrels are tied together and are thus basically inert to the way harmonics play a BIG part in a single barrel rifle. This is just one of the misconceptions where double rifles are concerned!

What does effect regulation is barrel time, and the recoil flip of the barrel set!

That is one the most often misrepresentations about double rifles that one reads from some of the writers that should know better. Of course it really isn't always their fault, because most were told wrong by well-known custom gunsmiths, who didn't know better either. There are a few double gun, and now double rifle magazines and quarterlies that still make some of these misrepresentations. Those are lax in editing of contributors for factual claims. Some just slip through because the editor doesn't know either.

#1 Is that most people think that a double rifle is useful only at very short range.

This is one of the most often misconceptions printed in magazines and book by some of the best-known writers, and in articles, and hunting reports by respected worldwide hunters. This issued as a reason why the writer doesn't use a double rifle when hunting dangerous game.

This is simply not true, and the double rifle properly regulated by the maker, and using the proper regulating loads, is just as accurate as any hunting rifle having the same type sights. If the double is fitted with a fixed rear sight, and multiple flip-ups for longer range then all the hunter has to do is practice with those sights at the ranges engraved on them.

#2 Is that a double rifle's flight path crosses at a given distance because fixing the barrels to converge from chamber to the muzzle regulates the barrels.

[COLOR:RED]The convergence of the barrels is necessary to make the rifle shoot side by side on the target, at the distance engraved on any of the flip-up sights no matter what range that happens to be.[/COLOR] The fact is, if the rifle was regulated properly by the maker, and the loads being shot are the proper load for that rifle, then the centers of each barrel's individual group will be on it's own side of the aiming point no matter the range. Of course, as with any rifle, if the barrel of any rifle is shooting one-inch groups at 100 yds, then it will be shooting two in groups at 200 yds. So this means with a double rifle some of the bullets in a group will spill over into the group from the other barrel. However the centers of each barrel's individual group will remain parallel to that of the other barrel. This is the first mistake that is made by folks who are unschooled in the way a double rifle works, believing that a double rifle crossed at a given range so would be useless from that point on down range!

#3 A double rifle is no good for North American hunting, only for dangerous game in Africa, and India.

The double rifle is the only rifle ever made that started life as a HUNTING rifle! All others began life as a war weapon. Though the double rifles were pressed into war use it was a specialized use to shoot through walls that hid snipers, but then as today the rifle has always been a hunting rifle. The Europeans have used double rifle in smaller chamberings for two hundred years to hunt everything from fox to large bear and boar. The very large chamberings were only used in Africa, and India as a rule. However I use them for all hunting, large or small game in North America, and I知 here to tell you a 300 pound wild hog, or a 1000 pound brown bear will die very quickly with a 470NE double rifle, and there isn't a better designed rifle in the world for woods shooting of all game there, no matter the continent where hunted, as long as they are cartridge specific for the game sought.

#4 Double rifle only cost so much because they are all gold inlaid and engraved.

Double rifle cost is directly attributed to the skilled people, required for the building of a working double rifle, and hand fitting, that can only be done by skilled hands, a skill that has been handed down from father to son for 200 years, and simply can't be done by machines.
Engraving is expensive on any type rifle, sometimes more expensive than the rifle it is applied on. A double rifle left in the white, will still be an expensive item, simply because they are so skilled labor intensive! Most other types of rifle can be made almost entirely by machines, and put together on an assembly line basis, double rifles cannot.

#5 If CNC machines were used quality double rifles could be built as cheaply as good bolt rifles.

As stated in the answer above, CNC is only used to do the hog work to get the pieces close to their final shape, but the final fitting and shaping has to be done by very skilled human hands.

#6 The magazine on a bolt rifle makes it a better choice for taking on dangerous game in a charge.

This is an excuse that many use to justify not owning a double rifle for dangerous game. Their contention is that a bolt rifle with one in the chamber, and three large cartridges in the magazine is more firepower than a double rifle with only two chambers. Their idea that all four rounds in the bolt can be accessed faster that they can from a double rifle, because all one has to do is work the bolt three time to shoot all four. What they are saying is that the bolt rifle doesn't have them be reloaded for the four shots, while the double has to be reloaded after the second shot! This is true of the double rifle, but they are wrong about the bolt rifle, which must be re-loaded three times after the FIRST shot. The double rifle fires two of the quickest AIMED shots with shots one and too. The reload is necessary, then the next two shots are both AIMED, and all the shots utilized with only a change of trigger, for the first two, then break and drop two rounds into the chambers simultaneously the fire the next two AIMED shots with only a change of triggers. If anyone has doubt that a double rifle can fire four shot on target faster than it can with a bolt rifle, it has been done and timed many times, and I have done it myself.

The double rifleman is at no disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooter while standing off a concentrated charge of a large animal that requires a lot of stopping. That has been proven many times. At Jullif, Texas we have a shoot twice per year called æ»´OOT & SHOOT at the Bayou Gun Club. At this shoot all shooters are shooting stopping rifles, both bolt, and double rifles. The drill for the stopping exercise is 8æ¯argets at 25 yds, the distance where most charges start. The shooters start with the rifle loaded, the bolt with one in the chamber, and three down, and the double rifle with both chambers loaded, with two more rounds in his shell carrier or between the fingers of his forehand, for the re-load. The eight-inch target has a two-inch 10X ring for a possible score of only 40 points if all hit the two-inch 10X ring. As stated the black bulls eye is eight inches across, and any shot that misses the black bulls eye is not counted even though that bullet would still be hitting a large animal.

I was shooting a Merkel mod 140E ? chambered for 9.3X74R, and because of a case of procrastination on my part I had failed to disengage the auto feature of the safety though I壇 had this rifle for some years. I was taken to task, by my readers for recommending they be disengaged, when I hadn't done so on my own rifle. In my defense, the rifle in question was not my dangerous game rifle I simply kept putting it off. Because it was a 9.3X74R double rifle it could be pressed into service as a DGR, if need be, so it really should have been disengaged, and I was drawn and quartered, for not doing so. More about the reason for disengaging auto safeties later. The shooting starts with a whistle, and all four shots are fired on the target as fast as you can, and the individual timing is started when each shooter fires his first shot, and stopped when he fires his last shot. I fired all four shots in four seconds flat, with the score on the target being 36 points of a possible 40 points if all shots had hit the 10X ring. The problem was I forgot about the automatic safety and tried to fire shot three, after the re-load, with the safety in the 徹N position. If the auto feature had been disabled like all my other doubles I would probably have shaved a full second off that time. In the act of trying to stop a lion, or big Brown bear that extra second could have cost me my life. In this shoot I took third place, and the two who beat me were shooting double rifles as well, and the only one bolt that even who beat my score was way down the rank for time.

#7 When a guy decides to buy himself a double rifle but not understanding how they work he thinks if he buys a double rifle in one of the common big bore cartridges used in bolt rifles he can get more power out of the rifle by hopping up the loads, and the bullets being easily available at the local gun store, shoot it cheaper, and still have a working double rifle.

This is a big mistake on the buyer's part. First most cartridges that are used in bolt rifles are rimless/belted rimless, and are not suited for a double rifle that will be used on dangerous game. They are slow to load properly, and the tiny spring loaded pawls needed to snap into the rimless cartridge's extractor groove, are fragile and prone to damage, or sticking in the down position. Either way they are a danger to the shooter who is trying to stop something that wants to kill him! These cartridges are not simple DROP-IN cartridges for the chambers so the cartridges can simply be dropped into the chamber simultaneously, but must be pushed into the chambers one at a time. SLOW! Too slow, and if they aren't seated before the rifle is closed sharply, the tiny extractor pawls may be snapped off with the broken piece not allowing the rifle to be closed fully. At that point, if the animal is not down for the count, the shooter is in some real trouble with nothing but a 12-pound club to fight with.

The double rifle is designed for rimmed, low-pressure cartridges, with tapered bodies. This shape, and low pressure allowed the cartridges to simply slide out of the chambers if only moved a microscopic amount the case was free of the grip of the chamber walls, and would simply fall out of the chambers. Many of the modern cartridges used for dangerous game in bolt rifles are too straight sided, and high pressure to work properly in a break-top double rifle.
Hey guys do you think that with modern DG that point #7 still a valid one? Obviously depends on the make Dose anyone know of this happening? Thanks
 
Hey guys do you think that with modern DG that point #7 still a valid one? Obviously depends on the make Dose anyone know of this happening? Thanks
What is "modern DG"?? They still kill you the same as traditional DG.....

Rimmed cartridges is what you want to use in a DR.....especially for "modern" or traditional DG....
 
Thanks yes missed the rifle Bit out….sorry:X3:
 

Forum statistics

Threads
56,361
Messages
1,202,293
Members
98,413
Latest member
CorrineCre
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Ryanelson wrote on Flipper Dude's profile.
I wanted to know if you minded answering a dew questions on 45-70 in africa
Ryanelson wrote on Sturgeondrjb's profile.
I wanted to know if you minded answering a dew questions on 45-70 in africa
HerbJohnson wrote on Triathlete3's profile.
If you have an email, I would love to be able to chat with you about J.P.H. Prohunt. My email address is [redacted]. Thanks.
Another Wildebees cull shot this morning!
We are doing a cull hunt this week!

 
Top