Double, Bolt action or Lever Action rifle on Dangerous Game

[IvW]

I tend to agree with most of what you say. The double feed were due to poor timing, both on K98's. Case slips out from under the extractor claw, as far as I could tell. Plenty of other problems with the 98's that are common with push feeds to. There big advantage is that massive extractor claw.

I bet it is not a "timing" problem. When you cycle the bolt back all the way as fast as you can, there is no "timing" involved, just practiced as fast as possible reloading. If timing is required to eject a case from the chamber there is something wrong with the gun.

I bet the tip of the extractor was damaged, this damage normally occurs when a round is placed on top of the stack in the magazine and the bolt then closed(as many people do when using a push feed. This forces the extractor claw to have to snap over the rim of the cartridge as the bolt is closed. It was never designed for this and is a big no no for Mauser type actions. You need to load it with rounds from the magazine only or ensure the extractor is over the rim before closing the bolt if carried one up and a full magazine.

The problem could also be that they used a K98 which was configured from one cartridge and then rebarreled to a different cartridge resulting in the extractor claw not fitting the new case. Incompetent gunsmiths don't look at this competent ones do. You wont find a Rigby or H&H if built on a K98 with this issue unless the extractor tip has been damaged.

 

[IvW]

I tend to agree with most of what you say. The double feed were due to poor timing, both on K98's. Case slips out from under the extractor claw, as far as I could tell. Plenty of other problems with the 98's that are common with push feeds to. There big advantage is that massive extractor claw.

I use the bear at 30mts example as no PH will get 3 rounds at a bear at full pace when only 30 meters. To put it in perspective if the average person had a sidearm in a holster they would be lucky to draw, aim and fire one round in that time. We are not talking about stationary paper targets. From 20mts with a rifle in hand you may get one aimed shot off, less than 20, you are normally out of luck unless a good hip shot. Not my experiences just gleaned from reading and talking to some who have hunted bear. I would think a lion in a full charge could be just as quick, but do not know.

I have had fail to feed, extract, fire on few types of actions actions. The only one I have not had a problem with was the SMLE. Does this mean they are faultless, not by a long shot, just that I have not experienced a problem. Yep I know they are not suited to high pressure rounds. I do like the ZKK's and CZ's

Lion and Leopard I would imagine to be faster than a bear. I dont guide for bears but I can assure you a Lion is extremely fast and a big male needs to be hit squarely with a big enough caliber in order to stop it. They will typically, depending on cover(the more cover the closer)come from about 20-30 meters at a blinding rate. Luckily they more often than not grunt when starting their charge which allows for the PH to at least pinpoint the direction.

Leopard are the most difficult to hit. They typically wait until you are on top of them before launching the charge, which is a blurr launched at a selected individual in the follow up(it may pass the first and even second in line and pounce on the third. The speed is frightening and the action fast and furious. Cool nerves, absolute firearm reliability is called for. A short double barreled(24 inch) twin trigger shotgun is my choice for this type of follow up.

Elephant are surprisingly difficult to spot for there size, they are deceptively fast and the target on a full frontal charge is not easy to hit, without the necessary experience.

I would presume less hunters are charged by wounded bears than any of the African DG. Although if one gets hold of you I am sure the results could be just as devastating.

I prefer a CRF bolt for my follow up work in an appropriate caliber except for leopard where I prefer my sxs shotgun with ghost ring rear sight and double triggers or my 9.3x74R/12ga also with two triggers.

Horses for courses I guess but I can only comment on what I have seen work in the field for myself as well as others I have hunted with and what does not and the push feed action irrespective of the rifle make is not one I would ever recommend for African DG.

 

[Rule 303]

The K98's were 8X57. Timing being the distance between the bolt face and the back of the extractor. Either way the Mauser and its derivatives do fuck up. The military use push feed for all their weapons and they are after some that shoots back from 0 meters to hundreds of meters, must have something going for the system.

Re the bears, not just wounded ones charge. What I am getting at with this, is that Africa is not the only place with hazardous terrain and DG.

Just a question about the shotgun follow up for leopard, Would a pump action be better, as good as, not as good as a side X side? I do like the double triggered SXS fo quick shots and follow up. Be very hard to beat for speed and reliability.

 

[IvW]

The K98's were 8X57. Timing being the distance between the bolt face and the back of the extractor. Either way the Mauser and its derivatives do fuck up. The military use push feed for all their weapons and they are after some that shoots back from 0 meters to hundreds of meters, must have something going for the system.

Re the bears, not just wounded ones charge. What I am getting at with this, is that Africa is not the only place with hazardous terrain and DG.

Just a question about the shotgun follow up for leopard, Would a pump action be better, as good as, not as good as a side X side? I do like the double triggered SXS fo quick shots and follow up. Be very hard to beat for speed and reliability.

A pump action is not better than a sxs for leopard. You have one shot at a charging leopard. If your first shot does not stop it and the leopard decides you are the one, then you can feed him your left arm and with one hand use the sxs pushed against it to give it the second barrel. With a pump you might as well use a single shot as you will not be able to cycle the action for the second shot with just your right hand. With the sxs you just need to move your trigger finger.

When I follow up on leopard I wear a jacket used by the tank division of our military(when it was still considered an army) which is made of strong fireproof kevlar type material, as well as a scrum cap on my head. Looks weird but offers some form of protection.

Furthermore I only use Brenneke slugs and no buckshot. Buckshot lacks penetration and is very hazardous to use if the cat decides to grab the tracker or anybody else for that matter and you need to shoot it off him.

 

[spekieries]

I tend to agree with IvW. If you have a push feed and you hunt the big and uglies once a year, by all means use it. After all you have the back up of a PH. But if you are a PH whose life depends on it and you do it 50 times a year and 250 times in 5 years, use a controlled feed in a proper caliber. Not something that might or might not work. One of those that you do not need to debate since you and everybody knows, it works!

 

[Rule 303]

Thats my

I tend to agree with IvW. If you have a push feed and you hunt the big and uglies once a year, by all means use it. After all you have the back up of a PH. But if you are a PH whose life depends on it and you do it 50 times a year and 250 times in 5 years, use a controlled feed in a proper caliber. Not something that might or might not work. One of those that you do not need to debate since you and everybody knows, it works!

That's my point Mauser actions/type do fuck up meaning the might or might not work. Don't for one second think they do fuck up. Yes they are recognized as the best of the bolt actions but they are not infallible like people believe them to be.

IvW, thanks for your info about the shotgun.

 

[IvW]

Thats my


That's my point Mauser actions/type do fuck up meaning the might or might not work. Don't for one second think they do fuck up. Yes they are recognized as the best of the bolt actions but they are not infallible like people believe them to be.

IvW, thanks for your info about the shotgun.

True but the fu..up a lot less than a push feed..

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

After six decades of hunting , eight years of which was as a professional Shikari for dangerous animals , l am of view that all three designs are good and it all matters which you are comfortable with. I was a Shikari in Darjeeling from 1962 to 1970 and most English calibre had been replaced by American calibre except the venerable magnum .375 by Holland and Holland . The bolt system was most common although l had clients also who used under lever repeating rifles and double barrel rifles. I had a client who was extra passionate about double barrel rifle. He was a repeat client and initially used a .400 bore double barrel rifle made by the firm , Jeffery. He was a swift shooter at leopard , Gaur and Nilgai. His fifth Shikar with us was his last one where he used the aforementioned gun , as he had expended his stock pile of ICI Kynoch cartridges. He later changed to a magnum .458 Winchester double barrel rifle made by the firm , Holland and Holland to use for his Shikar and used it for a 430 pound weight Royal Bengal Tigress in 1967 with success. There are sportsmen who can operate bolts on bolt type rifles very fast. There are others who like to rely on the swift pull of a second trigger on a double barrel rifle to kill their quarry. My clients who preferred doubles used to defend their choices on the grounds that bolt rifles might jam , while a second trigger is free from any mechanical failure in a double barrel rifle. With modern arms , this is hardly a problem as bolt rifles are as reliable as can be. I would like to give one word of caution however for patrons of double barrel rifles . Avoid a double barrel rifle with automatic safety mechanism. Such a safety mechanism may prevent a shooter from firing a second series of shots in a hurry or emergency . Practice how to hold two cartridges between the fingers of your non shooting hand. As soon as the shots are fired , snap open the gun, get the two cartridges into the chambers ( assuming you have ejector mechanism , which is imperative ) , close the breech and get ready to shoot again. Of course , all this is unnecessary if you place your first shot correctly , which is what we all should aim for , for a safe and enjoyable Shikar.
I do however , strongly recommend a double barrel for one application where a bolt operated fire arm is not good. If you are pursuing panther or leopard into thick vegetation , always use a double barrel shot-gun with large projectiles . I personally used 12 pellet SG , but many prefer Slug bullets .

 

[Rule 303]

True but the fu..up a lot less than a push feed..

Generally yes, if you take the operator out of the equation. The most reliable rifle I have ever used or seen used is the old SMLE. I have come across far less fuck ups with this action than any. Never had one myself, but yes this can still fuck up and of course is not a rifle to build a large bore or higher pressure cartridge on.

 

[Art Lambart II]

Doubles, bolts, or lever guns what about a good old fashion Ruger #1 in say a 416 Rigby. The one in my gun safe weights 11-1/2 pounds and is MOA at 100 yards. It's as short and handy as a double but a lot more accurate, not to mention only having one shot before you need to reload causes you to pass on marginal shots and focuses your effort on making the first shot count. I will admit that the #1 is not as fast as the other rifle to reload but with practice you can get pretty fast.

 

[lwaters]

Doubles, bolts, or lever guns what about a good old fashion Ruger #1 in say a 416 Rigby. The one in my gun safe weights 11-1/2 pounds and is MOA at 100 yards. It's as short and handy as a double but a lot more accurate, not to mention only having one shot before you need to reload causes you to pass on marginal shots and focuses your effort on making the first shot count. I will admit that the #1 is not as fast as the other rifle to reload but with practice you can get pretty fast.

All the stuff I read about poor feeding from custom rifles and factory bolts jamming the Ruger No. 1 maybe the safest bet. It's the ultimate control round feed.

 

[IvW]

Doubles, bolts, or lever guns what about a good old fashion Ruger #1 in say a 416 Rigby. The one in my gun safe weights 11-1/2 pounds and is MOA at 100 yards. It's as short and handy as a double but a lot more accurate, not to mention only having one shot before you need to reload causes you to pass on marginal shots and focuses your effort on making the first shot count. I will admit that the #1 is not as fast as the other rifle to reload but with practice you can get pretty fast.

The fastest time for the Zim PH shooting proficiency test is held by a Ruger nr 1.....
Is it a good backup rifle...no
Is it ok for a client...absolutely...

 

[crs]

"Dammit! Now I want an '86 in 475 Turnbull to take to take to Australia for Buffalo.... Or maybe an 1895 in 405 Win "
Comment from an earlier post on this thread. Good idea! Even without the beauty added with the Turnbull finish.

That is my 1895 .405 leaning on the buff to the left and my very plain 1886 45-90 above took Ele , cape buff, and leopard with one shot kills in Africa.

A great deal of the success goes to the hunter operating the rifle, or the pistol if Edward is the shooter.

 

[ActionBob]

"Dammit! Now I want an '86 in 475 Turnbull to take to take to Australia for Buffalo.... Or maybe an 1895 in 405 Win "
Comment from an earlier post on this thread. Good idea! Even without the beauty added with the Turnbull finish.

That is my 1895 .405 leaning on the buff to the left and my very plain 1886 45-90 above took Ele , cape buff, and leopard with one shot kills in Africa.

A great deal of the success goes to the hunter operating the rifle, or the pistol if Edward is the shooter.

I've also wanted a 475 Turnbull for a while

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

All the stuff I read about poor feeding from custom rifles and factory bolts jamming the Ruger No. 1 maybe the safest bet. It's the ultimate control round feed.

I see a fair few different kinds of rifles at our big bore range shoots and the summary so far is that the bolt guns have several problems, mostly with feed, sometimes with extraction. The doubles category is a much smaller sample, but there have been problems too. The Ruger No1 that participates regularly never gives a problem. The one that participates has taken two buffalo now.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I see a fair few different kinds of rifles at our big bore range shoots and the summary so far is that the bolt guns have several problems, mostly with feed, sometimes with extraction. The doubles category is a much smaller sample, but there have been problems too. The Ruger No1 that participates regularly never gives a problem. The one that participates has taken two buffalo now.

Having said that, the recent death of that PH in the Valley may have turned out differently if he had a reliable double for an immediate second shot. I love single shot rifles, I have used a Ruger No1 against DG (a buff bull), but on the recent hunt I felt far more comfortable with my Heym 450/400 double. I have absolute confidence that the first bullet would come out of both the Ruger and the Heym flawlessly, but with the double the second round would be immediately available and nobody can argue against that.

 

[edward]

practice,practice,PRACTICE!!!!!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

It’s all largely a matter of personal preference. Let’s rule out lever actions, because they usually aren’t chambered in calibers suitable enough for African dangerous game (barring the .405 Winchester and certain wild cat cartridges). On the subject of the .405 Winchester, the factory loaded ammunition which I’ve seen for this caliber (Hornady) doesn‘t offer good performance on Nilgai sized game. On the other hand, hand loads (with Northfork bullets) turn it into a very competent dangerous game caliber.

If you have to choose between a bolt action or a double rifle, you need to first ask yourself as to what’s more important: Two almost simultaneous shots or three to six shots (depending on rifle and/or caliber) with a split second interval between each (for bolt cycling) ?

Double rifles have a limitation: They don’t deliver accurate groups with ammunition except which they’ve originally been regulated for. For instance, I’ve seen an Auguste Francotte sidelock ejector in .458 Winchester Magnum which was built in 1969 and regulated for Winchester 500/510Gr ammunition (advertised velocity being 2130fps). After 1973, Winchester lowered their advertised velocity for their .458 Magnum ammunition to 2040fps. In 1980, I had a chance to fire that Francotte double rifle with (then) current production Winchester factory loaded ammunition. Groups were as wide as six inches at 50 yards. So if you opt for a double rifle, make sure that you:
a) Have access to a good stock of ammunition which your double rifle has been regulated for.
or
b) Know how to hand load and replicate the ballistics of the ammunition which your double rifle was originally regulated for.

Double rifles definitely have a very strong place for hunting in terrain, where there is thick cover (such as in mangrove forests or the former Belgian Congo or during follow ups of wounded game). Dangerous game is found at close ranges and the split second it takes to pull the second trigger can decide whether you’re the hunter or the hunted, On the other hand, bolt action rifles are far more suitable for hunting in open terrain where long range shots are offered.

My take is as follows:
For a new client hunter visiting Africa for the first time, a bolt action is hands down the way to go. It’s easier for a beginner to make a more accurate first shot with a bolt action rifle, than with a double rifle (generally speaking). And a client hunter’s biggest priority should always be to make sure that the first shot is properly placed.
For a professional hunter, it’s largely a matter of personal preference. For example, Doctor Kevin Robertson prefers a Dumoulin .505 Gibbs built on a Brevex Magnum Mauser action. Mark Sullivan prefers a Heym Jumbo in .577 Nitro Express. Jeff Rann opts for the pragmatic solution. He prefers a William Evans boxlock ejector .500 Nitro Express for thick cover and a John Bolliger .505 Gibbs built on a Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action for open terrain.

These are some of my dangerous game, hunted over the years in Africa & Asia.

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

.600 Nitro Express

.404 Jeffery

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

.404 Jeffery

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

.375 Holland & Holland Magnum

7x57mm Mauser

As can be seen, most were taken with bolt action rifles.

 

[crs]

"It’s all largely a matter of personal preference. Let’s rule out lever actions, because they usually aren’t chambered in calibers suitable enough for African dangerous game (barring the .405 Winchester and certain wild cat cartridges). On the subject of the .405 Winchester, the factory loaded ammunition which I’ve seen for this caliber (Hornady) doesn‘t offer good performance on Nilgai sized game. On the other hand, hand loads (with Northfork bullets) turn it into a very competent dangerous game caliber."

Correct on North Fork bullets - but I saw no mention of the Winchester 1886 .45-90 --

With ammo with velocities in the .458 Win Mag ranges.
With proper bullets like the Northfork 450 grain solid at 2150 fps, it is right up there with other traditional big bores.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

"It’s all largely a matter of personal preference. Let’s rule out lever actions, because they usually aren’t chambered in calibers suitable enough for African dangerous game (barring the .405 Winchester and certain wild cat cartridges). On the subject of the .405 Winchester, the factory loaded ammunition which I’ve seen for this caliber (Hornady) doesn‘t offer good performance on Nilgai sized game. On the other hand, hand loads (with Northfork bullets) turn it into a very competent dangerous game caliber."

Correct on North Fork bullets - but I saw no mention of the Winchester 1886 .45-90 --

With ammo with velocities in the .458 Win Mag ranges.
With proper bullets like the Northfork 450 grain solid at 2150 fps, it is right up there with other traditional big bores.

It's very sad, CRS. I always keep missing the .45-90. Sometimes I hear about it from other posters and hunters, but I don't know why I always keep overlooking that one.