Don't be a dummy like me...

[JimP]

I also have had zero problems shooting Barnes as far as barrel fouling. I have two rifles that except for a few factory rounds that were shot just after getting them have shot Barnes exclusively for quite a while and have had zero problems as far as accuracy with either one of them with extended range time.

But it does go to show at how changing something can and does affect accuracy where the barrel may need a good cleaning before you switch ammo.

 

[Red Leg]

In two .375 rifles (Blaser S2 and R8) and one 9.3 x64 (Sako), I have fired both TSX loads and Hydros with none of the effects you describe. In fairness, I should also note I am one of those who doesn’t get very much upset about fouling period. I too suspect this is more an individual rifle quirk

 

[Wheels]

Oh well at least I wont have that problem being a neanderthal and using ancient type bullets.......

You might be a redneck if your Kynoch is older than you or your rifle.

 

[Ike85123]

I had this problem with a .25acp years ago. My mom brought the gun in the 70s when the tyson brothers broke out of the Florence prison. When she gave it to me in the 90s, it came with 1 original box of shells, they shot fine.
I bought more for it and every bullet would stick in the barrel . I took it to the gun shop to be looked at. Gunsmith said the last bullets gave a build up in the barrel and since the 25 dont have much power, they stuck in the barrel.
He said he soaked it in solvent overnight then ran a hot brush through it.
Has worked great ever since.

 

[Scott CWO]

I clean my rifles religiously but I always leave the barrel a little fouled after shooting/sighting-in just before hunting. Then after the hunt, I completely clean and store them clean. The first shot out of a completely cleaned barrel is almost always a bit of a flier in my guns. I usually bring a compact cleaning kit with me on hunts. On my last day or evening in camp, I usually completely breakdown and clean the rifle. It gives me something to do while waiting for charter flights or travel. Then when I get home, the rifle goes right in the safe. There’s always so much to do when you get back from a trip so it’s nice to not do cleaning then.

 

[One Day...]

Fascinating!

Over the last few years I have been going freely back & forth between TTSX, Nosler Partition and Hornady Interlock in three Mark V rifles in .257 Wby, .300 Wby and .340 Wby; one CZ 550 custom in .300 Wby; one Winchester 70 stainless in .300 Wby; and two Blaser R8 barrels in .257 Wby and .300 Wby (Weatherby sells "silver box" ammo with Interlock for half the price they sell "gold box" ammo with premium bullets, and this is good practice ammo); and on my CZ 550 and R8 .375 H&H barrel I have been mixing TTSX, Woodleigh FMJ & RNSN, Nosler Partition, PPU (practice ammo) without ever getting any issue. The same applies to my CZ 550 .270 Win the kids use, between TTSX and PPU. The same also applies to my Krieghoff .470 between Hornady DGS/DGX B, Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer, Woodleigh FMJ & RNSN, etc.

Most of my other rifles are still finishing their stock of Federal Premium Nosler Partition, the ONLY factory premium ammo with premium bullet available from the 1980's to the 2000's...

I will confess that like Red Leg, I am not very focused on fouling issues, and I belong to the school of thought that more barrels loose accuracy from overenthusiastic cleaning than by shooting. Truth be told, since the BoreSnake came to the market, the only bores I really clean anymore are brand new rifles/barrels coming from the factory with Cosmoline-type coating. I also do not obsess with group size on hunting rifles, and do not shoot from a benchrest or a lead sled. As long as my hunting rifles/barrels print ~1 MOA at 100 yards from field shooting positions, this is good enough for me.

I will indeed clean my barrels when I loose accuracy with them, but based on my shooting over the last few years it seems that this requires several hundred shots, regardless of caliber or bullet. In the mean time, 3 passes with the BoreSnake is all they get

Maybe I am just lucky with my barrels...

 

[Philip Glass]

I have had several guns in my shop with this issue. After a proper barrel cleaning the accuracy came back. I always advise my customers to clean their barrel before switching to Barnes and clean again before switching back.

Thanks for this info.

 

[Newboomer]

I use Barnes TSX or TTSX exclusively in all my rifles except the 6.5CR where I use Hornady 143gr ELD-X. I have shot Federal 270sp and 300sp in my Win 70 375HH with good accuracy. Haven't ever used solids.

 

[fourfive8]

I have studied and tested the various copper fouling theories every which but loose and simply can’t arrive at a single unified theory of fouling.

I believe however there is a relationship between throat design/and reamer cutting and copper fouling. I also believe there is relationship between bore surface condition and fouling. Additionally, I believe there is a relationship between bore land-groove design and dimension and fouling. Now, how all those variables interact with any one bullet or powder or velocity or pressure or bullet dimension or alloy??? I really hesitate to make absolute statements.

And what is the best for regimen of bore cleaning? Again, I dunno. I clean often and thoroughly. But if others don’t, who’s to say that is right or wrong. Do what works.

I have found though, in my experience, a properly designed drive band mono metal bullet generally fouls less than many smooth shank bullets- all other things being equal. Also, seems impossible fo me to pin down exact number of fouling shots required for best group strings at equilibrium- seems that each load and rifle is different.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have been waiting for decent weather to get to the rifle range before I leave for Alaska on May 7th and Botswana on June 4th. Finally got a couple calm days without wind, rain and snow so I went to the range a few days ago to shoot the CZ550 .375 H&H with AHR upgrades that I bought from @BeeMaa last year for a brown bear camp gun and to shoot my .458 Lott that I use for a backup gun and will use in Botswana for ele.

I put a new Luepold VX-6HD CDS-ZL2 2-12 x 42mm on Talley QD mounts on the CZ .375 and it shot great - about 1 MOA. Bore-sighted it and then had it dialed in after six rounds of Barnes 270gr! So far so good!

I also put a new scope on the .458 Lott. It's a Luepold VX-R 2-7 x 33mm with red dot. With the old Luepold VX-3 1.5-5 x 20mm that I usually use, the .458 Lott has been a real tack driver - sometimes less than 1 MOA. Started with a clean barrel. Everything went well at 50 yards with my Barnes 500gr TSX for a bear load. Before I jumped out to 100 yards, I decided to try some 500gr Woodleigh hydro solids for the ele. They shot a bit lower. No worries, I figured I would re-sight the rifle after bear season so I didn't adjust the scope. Then I mounted the Leica Tempus red dot sight to shoot a solids with it at 50 yards. I adjusted the dot. No worries. So far so good.

I then jumped out to 100 yards and put the VX-R back on the Lott and switched back to the Barnes TSX bear load after running a couple dry patches. Whoa! Groups were not good! Couldn't seem to get the scope adjusted correctly - shots jumping left, then right! Checked all the mounts - no problems there. Had to go back to 50 yards. Burned up all kinds of expensive ammo and was getting disgusted! Still not good at 50 yards. Ran out of ammo. Went home without confidence in the rifle for the first time ever. Called one of my guides who builds rifles and shoots long-range. He knew right away what the problem was but I didn't.

He said the solids likely fouled the barrel with a different metal alloy that the Barnes did not like when I switched back. I felt pretty stupid. Shouldn't have been switching ammo back and forth like that! I got out my cleaning supplies and really scrubbed the barrel and cleaned it really good. Went back to the range yesterday with two more boxes of Barnes ammo and a clean barrel. Viola! Grouping good again starting with the second shot! Only had to shoot six rounds with the last three shooting 1" group at 100 yards. Now I feel better! I had never shot solids before and did't think much about mixing them in. A totally different copper alloy made a big difference. I guess I will clean the rifle after bear season and go back to solids then. No more mixing and matching them. Have any of you guys ever ran into this issue? I usually find a load that works and stick with it and I never have shot solids or another bullet while sighting-in my primary load.

@Scott CWO
It's more than likely due to d dirty barrel, but are the same time it has got me a bit stonkered. Neither my 25 or 35 suffer the s a me problem. I worked up loads for Hornaday, Speer, Sierra, Nosler combined technology silver tip and Barnes TTSX. I didn't clean the barrel at all between groups and had no issues with accuracy. I settled on 2 loads for my 25 the Barnes and the nosler. These 2 group to the same poi and it doesn't matter what order they are in. I haven't cleaned my barrel in 200 of rounds either.
My 35 doesn't care what goes down the barrel but the powder I use has a decoppering agent that appears to work well.
Bob

 

[Scott CWO]

@Scott CWO
It's more than likely due to d dirty barrel, but are the same time it has got me a bit stonkered. Neither my 25 or 35 suffer the s a me problem. I worked up loads for Hornaday, Speer, Sierra, Nosler combined technology silver tip and Barnes TTSX. I didn't clean the barrel at all between groups and had no issues with accuracy. I settled on 2 loads for my 25 the Barnes and the nosler. These 2 group to the same poi and it doesn't matter what order they are in. I haven't cleaned my barrel in 200 of rounds either.
My 35 doesn't care what goes down the barrel but the powder I use has a decoppering agent that appears to work well.
Bob

The barrel was clean when I started and between the scope, iron sights, the Leica red dot and the scope again, I shot a box of solids and nearly two boxes of Barnes. I looked at the targets again today. At the end of the first day, it was shooting about 3.25" groups at 100 yards with the Barnes after going back and forth shooting the Woodleigh solids. After a serious cleaning, I shot a .75" group the center of which was exactly .75" high and .75" left of the center of the bull. I did not adjust the scope after that group. Good enough for me. This rifle definitely didn't like to go back to Barnes after the Woodleigh solids.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I normaly shoot at least fire 20 rounds in a seesion. I clean the gun fully well before it is put away. When I take it out again I give a quick cleaning to the barrel. No issues so far that way.
Krish

@krish
If you don't do it 100% properly you will end up stuffing up the barrel before you shoot it out..
Bob

 

[freefall]

I wonder if lapping the barrel wouldn't be worth while...

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I clean my rifles religiously but I always leave the barrel a little fouled after shooting/sighting-in just before hunting. Then after the hunt, I completely clean and store them clean. The first shot out of a completely cleaned barrel is almost always a bit of a flier in my guns. I usually bring a compact cleaning kit with me on hunts. On my last day or evening in camp, I usually completely breakdown and clean the rifle. It gives me something to do while waiting for charter flights or travel. Then when I get home, the rifle goes right in the safe. There’s always so much to do when you get back from a trip so it’s nice to not do cleaning then.

@Scott CWO
When I sight my rifles in I start with a spotless barrel. After the fireing of each shot I let the barrel cool completely and give it a bit of a clean. It may take 6 to 8 shots but when my rifle is sighted I know each shot will be on the money out of a cold barrel clean barrel.
After I fire the last round I leave the barrel fouled. After it cools I check it a gain with 3 quick shots. And check the accuracy which is usually still spot on.
When I get home I give my rifle another clean and put it away.
The next time I'm at the range I take 5 rounds with me. The first shot is fired from a cold clean barrel. The barrel is allowed to cool and a second shot fired reloaded and fired at another target with a fouled and warm barrel.
Both target should them be exactly the same poi clean, dirty cold or hot..
It's the first shot that counts and I want to be able to rely on it.
Bob

 

[Scott CWO]

@Scott CWO
When I sight my rifles in I start with a spotless barrel. After the fireing of each shot I let the barrel cool completely and give it a bit of a clean. It may take 6 to 8 shots but when my rifle is sighted I know each shot will be on the money out of a cold barrel clean barrel.
After I fire the last round I leave the barrel fouled. After it cools I check it a gain with 3 quick shots. And check the accuracy which is usually still spot on.
When I get home I give my rifle another clean and put it away.
The next time I'm at the range I take 5 rounds with me. The first shot is fired from a cold clean barrel. The barrel is allowed to cool and a second shot fired reloaded and fired at another target with a fouled and warm barrel.
Both target should them be exactly the same poi clean, dirty cold or hot..
It's the first shot that counts and I want to be able to rely on it.
Bob

Yes that can work as well. I do let he barrel cool between shots but always shoot the rifle before hunting and then hunt with a mildly fouled barrel.

 

[One Day...]

Dare I say...

We are all talking as if cumulative shooting fatigue did not exist. I do not know about you guys, but I will will freely admit that it does for me. Call me a wimp

I cannot help but notice in the following post, the words "a box of solids and nearly two boxes of Barnes" and "at the end of the first day, it was shooting about 3.25" groups."

The barrel was clean when I started and between the scope, iron sights, the Leica red dot and the scope again, I shot a box of solids and nearly two boxes of Barnes. I looked at the targets again today. At the end of the first day, it was shooting about 3.25" groups at 100 yards with the Barnes after going back and forth shooting the Woodleigh solids. After a serious cleaning, I shot a .75" group the center of which was exactly .75" high and .75" left of the center of the bull. I did not adjust the scope after that group. Good enough for me. This rifle definitely didn't like to go back to Barnes after the Woodleigh solids.

I am not sure how I would group after close to 60 rounds of full house .458 Lott and Lord Forbid if they were shot from a seating bench

'Nough said?

 

[Scott CWO]

I am very recoil resistant and wore a shirt, fleece pullover and a Carhartt coat when shooting. I was there for three hours with a friend and shot some handguns as well. Recoil wasn’t the problem. As many have stated on this thread, some rifles do not like Barnes from a barrel fouled by another bullet. After I thoroughly cleaned the barrel, I got my usual good result a couple days later.

 

[Scott CWO]

Dare I say...

We are all talking as if cumulative shooting fatigue did not exist. I do not know about you guys, but I will will freely admit that it does for me. Call me a wimp

I cannot help but notice in the following post, the words "a box of solids and nearly two boxes of Barnes" and "at the end of the first day, it was shooting about 3.25" groups."



I am not sure how I would group after close to 60 rounds of full house .458 Lott and Lord Forbid if they were shot from a seating bench

'Nough said?

An old post but I think there is a difference between switching back and forth between Barnes and other soft bullets vs my issue with solids. I think switching to solids and then back to Barnes was the issue for my rifle.

 

[Hunt anything]

I’m glad you brought this back, I have a .338 that throws Barnes bullets all over the place after button holing cor-locks. I finally shot up all of my ammunition and since I haven’t been able to find any more the rifle has been relegated to the back of the safe. When I get some more ammo I’ll scrub the hell out of the barrel and see what happens.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’m glad you brought this back, I have a .338 that throws Barnes bullets all over the place after button holing cor-locks. I finally shot up all of my ammunition and since I haven’t been able to find any more the rifle has been relegated to the back of the safe. When I get some more ammo I’ll scrub the hell out of the barrel and see what happens.

@Hunt anything
Throw that little 338WM away and get a nice 35 Whelen mate. Mine doesn't care what I throw down the tube. In Namibia 5 different shooters given 2 rounds each, 5 different rounds and 2 different weights grouped 1.2 inches at 100yds for a total of 10 shots .
That kind of accuracy will do me any day.
Bob