Disgrunted with Nosler Ammunition

[Ridge Runner]

Ridge Runner,

480gr bullet at 2100fps gives you 4700ft/lbs energy vs
500gr bullet at 2000fps 4442ft/lbs of energy

Believe me hippo aint not goin to know the difference between 480gr bullet and the 500gr bullet. Neither is the PH unless he weighs your ammo.

I would go for Woodleigh bullets shorter than Swift and they do both soft and solid in 480gr easy as that.

Are these factory loads or your reloads?

What powder are you using?

Is the fps and ft/lbs data you list from factory load data information or actual chronograph results and ballistic calculator? And at what distance is 4700 ft/lbs: ie. muzzle, 25, 50, 100 yds?

 

[Frederik]

Ridge Runner,

Working a quick calculation on Quickload and using 90gr of case capicity on the Win Mag with Total cartridge length of
3.34" /84.84mm you can get 2100fps with 71gr IMR 4320 with the 480gr Woodleigh soft. 4700/lbs
With the 480gr solid 66gr IMR 4320 and 2055fps 4500ft/lbs

That is out of a 24" barrel.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Ridge Runner,

Working a quick calculation on Quickload and using 90gr of case capicity on the Win Mag with Total cartridge length of
3.34" /84.84mm you can get 2100fps with 71gr IMR 4320 with the 480gr Woodleigh soft. 4700/lbs
With the 480gr solid 66gr IMR 4320 and 2055fps 4500ft/lbs

That is out of a 24" barrel.

Thanks for the info.

My Interarms Mark X, minus chamber length has a 22 1/4 +/- inch barrel.

I haven't tested any loads using IMR 4320. I'll be picking up a load of powder next week, adding a pound of IMR 4320 and H 4895 to it.

I'll post my results hopefully later next week weather permitting.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I’ve never fired a Barnes bullet or their factory ammunition.

My factory Barnes TSX 450gr .458WM cartridges states 2240fps on the box? Maybe out of my CZ’s 25” barrel it’s close to that? I don’t have access to a chronograph, but the recoil tells me it’s close! Ha! Ha!

 

[Desert Dog]

What Chrono are you using?

I was a competition shooter for many years. When I would mentor guys just getting started, I always found they were constantly chasing ES and SD issues with their loads, and getting way over-OCD with loading practices as a result. I would say that 75% of the time, these guys were trusting cheap, poorly designed, or poorly set-up chronys. I would line them up with my Oehler and find their MV's and ES's were usually very far off of reality.

Litz and many other top-tier shooters and ballisticians actually tested most of these cheap chronys and found them to be WAY off and extremely inconsistent. Today, unless you have a high dollar Oehler and the lighting is perfect, you should only really trust your Magnetospeed or Labradar. I use a Labradar because its so easy to set up and it doesn't change POA/POI.

If you are using a Caldwell or Prochrono, I wouldn't trust your ES numbers.

Barrel condition (throat erosion / barrel wear / damaged crown) and barrel cleanliness will also cause inconsistent MV's.

But yes, Factory ammo almost never matches claimed numbers. I find Hornady to be the worst about this; they often change powders and get big velocity changes, but package it in the same box as ammo that used the old powders and don't change their advertised MVs. Also, the testing conditions under which the manufactures get MV's often don't match a real-world rifle shooting that cartridge (Many use longer barrels. Also the test rifle might have the bullet jump at .005", but your factory Rem700 might have a jump of .170" with the same ammo).

 

[MMAL]

What Chrono are you using?

I was a competition shooter for many years. When I would mentor guys just getting started, I always found they were constantly chasing ES and SD issues with their loads, and getting way over-OCD with loading practices as a result. I would say that 75% of the time, these guys were trusting cheap, poorly designed, or poorly set-up chronys. I would line them up with my Oehler and find their MV's and ES's were usually very far off of reality.

Litz and many other top-tier shooters and ballisticians actually tested most of these cheap chronys and found them to be WAY off and extremely inconsistent. Today, unless you have a high dollar Oehler and the lighting is perfect, you should only really trust your Magnetospeed or Labradar. I use a Labradar because its so easy to set up and it doesn't change POA/POI.

If you are using a Caldwell or Prochrono, I wouldn't trust your ES numbers.

Barrel condition (throat erosion / barrel wear / damaged crown) and barrel cleanliness will also cause inconsistent MV's.

But yes, Factory ammo almost never matches claimed numbers. I find Hornady to be the worst about this; they often change powders and get big velocity changes, but package it in the same box as ammo that used the old powders and don't change their advertised MVs. Also, the testing conditions under which the manufactures get MV's often don't match a real-world rifle shooting that cartridge.

I agree totally. My chronic is a Caldwell. But I will say the same chronology on same day clocked my hand loaded 458 Lott at 2200 FPS, the “book” on my load development said 2250. So it is off but still that’s a lot for a factory load. Whatever you use we all know that factory loads are hit and miss. Sometimes, some combination and boxes work great others times not so much. The point here is that nosler safari caliber ammo seems to be a little light in velocity department. There is a reason they are/ were selling it for 75% off.

 

[MMAL]

When I finally received a reply back from the PH I'll have for my hippo hunt, he was rather commendable about me using my 458 WM with 500 grain bullets.

I'm still in the process of looking over the data of: Barnes, Swift, Woodleigh, and Norma: solid, soft, and some alloyed bullets. I most likely will drop down to a 450 gr or 480 gr bullet for the hippo.

Ridge runner, it is my understanding and correct me if I am wrong anyone but the hippo skull is no where near the toughness of a cape or elephant. If you are hunting it on land that is another thing all together but in the water or a head shot, the hippo skull is easy to pen.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I don’t know about Nosler’s factory cartridge velocity short comings, but for $99.00 US for two boxes and free shipping? You almost can’t buy forty new cases, bullets and powder for that in some of the Safari calibers? The cheap stuff in .458 WM is $80-$100/box at LEAST, plus shipping? I enjoy reloading, but for those who don’t I think this is a GREAT deal, if for nothing else, sending some bullets downrange!
AND NOT FROM THE BENCH! Ha! Ha!

 

[Dr Ray]

Most of not all manufacturers test their ammo in 26 inch barrels that are designed only for testing.
The action is incredibly “tight” too for these tests.
So in our usual 22-24 inch barrels with normal actions you can expect a velocity drop compared to the testing apparatus.

 

[MMAL]

I don’t know about Nosler’s factory cartridge velocity short comings, but for $99.00 US for two boxes and free shipping? You almost can’t buy forty new cases, bullets and powder for that in some of the Safari calibers? The cheap stuff in .458 WM is $80-$100/box at LEAST, plus shipping? I enjoy reloading, but for those who don’t I think this is a GREAT deal, if for nothing else, sending some bullets downrange!
AND NOT FROM THE BENCH! Ha! Ha!

For those that don’t know, Nosler uses nickel for their cases. Thus the left over cases while I agree are nice, do not mix with brass just for consistency sake.

 

[BeeMaa]

I don’t know about Nosler’s factory cartridge velocity short comings, but for $99.00 US for two boxes and free shipping? You almost can’t buy forty new cases, bullets and powder for that in some of the Safari calibers? The cheap stuff in .458 WM is $80-$100/box at LEAST, plus shipping? I enjoy reloading, but for those who don’t I think this is a GREAT deal, if for nothing else, sending some bullets downrange!
AND NOT FROM THE BENCH! Ha! Ha!

Target practice is one thing, hunting is something completely different.
And I understand the Nosler are inexpensive.
How much would you spend to get a bullet back that missed its mark and left an animal wounded?
How about if it wasn't because of anything you did, but that the bullet wasn't properly loaded?

From a cost standpoint, the cartridge is the cheapest item on a safari.
It's also the first item to touch the game...game you are paying for.
Seems like a bad time to be pinching pennies.

 

[fourfive8]

I can't remember the last factory rifle round I fired. Except for all 22 lr, some shotgun and some
handgun, all my shooting has been with reloads. I think I've shot one big game animal with a factory load since 1969. That however doesn't mean that these ammo sales aren't attractive! They most certainly are even if they run conservative on muzzle vel. No big deal for me as I load to the conservative side anyway.

For a perspective- I remember in Durban, RSA a few years ago I checked the prices for ammo- Yikes!! Something like $50-75 per round in five round boxes for the good stuff. Even then, there weren't many choices. I also remember well the Big O ammo and component scare here- shortages of everything. That put me in high gear, so I'm now well stocked with components. Occasionally, I'll put in an order to Midway, Graf or Midsouth for a box of bullets to try- but that's about it. Needed some 270 and 300 TSXs for the 375 and the order arrived about 10 days ago. Put together a few for the new-to- me 375 HH. Less than 20 rounds shot and I'm ready to hunt with it. One of the beauties of reloading. Even though I'm occasionally tempted to buy some factory stuff at these very reasonable prices, I really won't gain much. Can't buy anything better than I can reload and I have 100% confidence in them.

This rifle is one of those boring, predictable ones- a really good thing in so many ways. Loaded about 10 mid-pressure rounds to prove the basic function and scope. Bore sight, shoot one at 50 yds. Adjust scope and put the next 6 in a nice tight cluster very close to desired POI (attached pic of that target). That was less than a week ago. Nice weather today, so shot 10 more rounds of full pressure hunting ammo, 300 gr TSXs through the chronograph. Right at 2500 fps mean velocity with a low SD of about 8 fps. Tight cluster at same location as previous POI. No pressure signs. That's what reloading can do. So I'll add this rifle to the other safe queens, who occasionally get to go to the range. I usually go about once a week year around, weather permitting, and take a rifle or two each trip

 

[CoElkHunter]

Target practice is one thing, hunting is something completely different.
And I understand the Nosler are inexpensive.
How much would you spend to get a bullet back that missed its mark and left an animal wounded?
How about if it wasn't because of anything you did, but that the bullet wasn't properly loaded?

From a cost standpoint, the cartridge is the cheapest item on a safari.
It's also the first item to touch the game...game you are paying for.
Seems like a bad time to be pinching pennies.

Very true!

 

[krish]

I bought some of these. Going to pull the bullets off. Dump the charge in my garden for nitrogen. Reload with proper tested powder and swift 500gr or barnes 450gr tsx for the 458 winchester. For the 458 lott use the 500gr tsx. Use the pulled bullets use them in 450 rigby. Still come ahead. Price the 500gr solids. Even when on sale during black ftidays they are dollar a piece from cutting edge. 450 rigby norma brass is at best is $4.50 a piece. And hard to find.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Well after reading everything here, I’ll be looking for a 28” barrel for my WM. Kinda like those long barreled rifles they’ve used in the past for hunting in India that an OP posted photos of on another thread. I MUST get those Noslers I bought up to 2150fps or they won’t kill anything! If not, I’ll just have to buy Toby’s Lott when he puts it up for sale?

 

[Tanks]

Not quite reaching the advertised velocity is one thing. The extreme spread is what would bother me more. As someone else mentioned, time to load your own. Or have one the custom ammo manufacturers work up a load for you.

Choice ammunition has been right on the money. +/- 10fps from their advertised loads. Measured with Labradar

 

[krish]

CoElkhunter
There you go. Wetherby in WY makes them in 28 inch barrel with the break. Next door. No need to look overseas.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

I went to the range on Friday, mainly to try out a new 6.5 Swede, however I also brought the 404J along to shoot a few Nosler solids and report back to this thread.

I shot 3 shots over my MagnetoSpeed V3. These were Nosler 400 gr solids.

2418, 2410, 2388. Avg=2405 fps, SD= 15.5, ES =30. Same POI as my hand loaded Swift A=Frames.

Based on my data, I have no problems with this ammo, particularly at $50/box.

 

[Chago]

Velocity matching what's on the box is not entirely nosler fault. They could have used a different rifle, different barrel length, different barrel twist, different barrel profile and even different outdoor temperature. All of those would effect the velocity.

And yes you can have differences in velocities throughout a a day of shooting. But typically it's more of a constant decline or incline based on the outside temperature warning up, barrel and action warming up, or even temperature dropping and barrel becoming more fouled. Some powders are more sensitive to temps then others, so I am not sure which powder they use in that load.

But to have velocities jumping up and down one after another. That's purely due to poor loading of powder. You for sure have differences of +/- 2 grains. I have pulled bullets and measured some for buddies to prove to them how bad their ammo was. And I've seen as high as 4!!!!!! Grains in a 30-06. Personally you will need to be buying some very expensive ammo in order to get match like accuracy in powder. And some of these brands charge so high for a box of 20, after 3 or 4 boxes you could have bought yourself an entire reloading set.

As someone else mentioned. Other than 22LR and some 223 surplus ammo. I have not bought a factory bullet in years.

 

[rookhawk]

Fact check time:

please check your ammo and see if the box says “loaded in Sweden”.

the large bore Nosler ammo is made by Norma.