Disappointed In My New 404 Jeffery

[WAB]

Here is my Winchester Express on my 375. They call this color dark McWoody. I even had the option to get the red recoil pad. They will also make any LOP you want. Mine is 14”.
View attachment 388292

Not a synthetic stock fan, although I do own a couple, but that is by far the best looking synthetic stock I’ve ever seen!

 

[Andrew Short]

Spoke to accurate innovations this morning. We are looking into that option as well.

 

[Shootist43]

Andrew, just for the heck of it take a look at Boyd's Laminated stocks. Yes they are an aftermarket item and aren't very pretty but they are much heavier than regular walnut etc., besides that they can be ordered in one of several pull lengths. They are "Quote" drop in, but may require some minor fitting. I put one on my 35 Whelen and am happy I did. Here is the link: Home | Boyds Hardwood Gunstocks (boydsgunstocks.com)

 

[Andrew Short]

@Shootist43 thanks!!

 

[EfRed]

I've said it a thousand times. A 400 gr bullet at 2350fps is a 400 grain bullet at 2350 fps. No matter what case it comes out of. All this nonsense about the 404 being some pussycat to shoot is BS. Gun weight and stock fit are infinitely more important than any slight case design differences. When the 404 came out it was loaded to 2100 fps or thereabouts. If you load any of the 416 rounds to that level you'll have an easy shooting load as well.
My Winchester 70 416 Rem Mag weighs in at 9lbs even with scope mounts only, no scope. With scope it comes in at 9lbs 14 oz. Loaded to 2350 fps it is no pussycat to shoot either. But it is shootable nonetheless. Especially since I had the stock lengthened to my correct LOP.
Did you have your 404 made to your correct LOP?

The bullet and its muzzle velocity alone are not the sole arbiters of actual recoil. There is powder gas to consider, which is accelerated to quite a lot higher velocity than the bullet, I've read ~7000 fps. So the 416 Rigby will have greater recoil than the .404 Jeffery with equal weight bullet and equal muzzle velocity, due to the greater powder mass. My Woodleigh manual gives:

1) .404 Jeffery 400 gr bullet 2140 fps using 80 gr R17 old standard load
2) .404 Jeffery 400 gr bullet 2400 fps using 88 gr R17 new standard
3) .416 Rigby 410 gr bullet 2435 fps using 95 gr R17 standard

Load 3 has 20% greater momentum and 25% greater energy at the muzzle than load 1, using about equal bullet mass at velocities standard to the cartridges. At approximately equal velocity, load 3 has 11% greater momentum and 15% greater energy at the muzzle than load 2. The difference in bullet mass between the 416 and the 404 is 2.5%, included in these calcs, but ~ negligible.

Based on this, there should be significantly lower recoil for the old standard Jeffery than the Rigby, in otherwise equal rifles. Backing off to the old standard .404 Jeffery load will do a lot to improve Mr. Short's problem. The old standard load was found acceptable in Africa for years, though I've read that there was some user request for 100 fps higher MV. There is some real advantage to the lighter rifle, for an all day hunter, and little sense in routinely shooting a faster than needed bullet. One could always carry a handful of 2400 fps Jeffery rounds while hunting, and practice with the old standard load.

I hope this works out for you Mr. Short. If you are a hand loader, the solution lies within your ready grasp. If not, you now have incentive to become a hand loader ! Anyone willing to focus and learn can do it.

Other members with hunting experience might comment on the utility of the old standard Jeffery load vs the newer, high velocity load.

 

[Andrew Short]

The bullet and its muzzle velocity alone are not the sole arbiters of actual recoil. There is powder gas to consider, which is accelerated to quite a lot higher velocity than the bullet, I've read ~7000 fps. So the 416 Rigby will have greater recoil than the .404 Jeffery with equal weight bullet and equal muzzle velocity, due to the greater powder mass. My Woodleigh manual gives:

1) .404 Jeffery 400 gr bullet 2140 fps using 80 gr R17 old standard load
2) .404 Jeffery 400 gr bullet 2400 fps using 88 gr R17 new standard
3) .416 Rigby 410 gr bullet 2435 fps using 95 gr R17 standard

Load 3 has 20% greater momentum and 25% greater energy at the muzzle than load 1, using about equal bullet mass at velocities standard to the cartridges. At approximately equal velocity, load 3 has 11% greater momentum and 15% greater energy at the muzzle than load 2. The difference in bullet mass between the 416 and the 404 is 2.5%, included in these calcs, but ~ negligible.

Based on this, there should be significantly lower recoil for the old standard Jeffery than the Rigby, in otherwise equal rifles. Backing off to the old standard .404 Jeffery load will do a lot to improve Mr. Short's problem. The old standard load was found acceptable in Africa for years, though I've read that there was some user request for 100 fps higher MV. There is some real advantage to the lighter rifle, for an all day hunter, and little sense in routinely shooting a faster than needed bullet. One could always carry a handful of 2400 fps Jeffery rounds while hunting, and practice with the old standard load.

I hope this works out for you Mr. Short. If you are a hand loader, the solution lies within your ready grasp. If not, you now have incentive to become a hand loader ! Anyone willing to focus and learn can do it.

Other members with hunting experience might comment on the utility of the old standard Jeffery load vs the newer, high velocity load.

I do hand load and I have some 82 grain and 84 grain loads made up. I will chrono those when I have a spare minute to see what they yield. According to the load data provided by @Shootist43 the 84 grain should yield 2321 FPS. Therefore the 80-82 grain loads should be around 21-2250. So we will see how that plays into the recoil as well.

 

[EfRed]

The bullet and its muzzle velocity alone are not the sole arbiters of actual recoil. There is powder gas to consider, which is accelerated to quite a lot higher velocity than the bullet, I've read ~7000 fps. So the 416 Rigby will have greater recoil than the .404 Jeffery with equal weight bullet and equal muzzle velocity, due to the greater powder mass. My Woodleigh manual gives:

I do hand load and I have some 82 grain and 84 grain loads made up. I will chrono those when I have a spare minute to see what they yield. According to the load data provided by @Shootist43 the 84 grain should yield 2321 FPS. Therefore the 80-82 grain loads should be around 21-2250. So we will see how that plays into the recoil as well.

Best of luck, Mr Short ! I too dislike unnecessary recoil !

 

[Andrew Short]

Best of luck, Mr Short ! I too dislike unnecessary recoil !

Thanks!

 

[EfRed]

I should also say that the advice about stock style, fit, and construction is valid too. I bought a 375 Ruger African some years ago, and i characterize its recoil as hard. Wayne York at Pendleton Custom Stocks put one of his composites on for me, one having a bit straighter line from butt to muzzle. The stock change made a rather remarkable change in perceived recoil for me, improving it much. The straight line stock makes the open sights a bit harder to pick up, but its a good trade-off in my mind. I thinks Wayne's stock flexes a bit also; while you might worry about accuracy, he has a great rep for making accurate rifles with these stocks.

 

[TOBY458]

The bullet and its muzzle velocity alone are not the sole arbiters of actual recoil. There is powder gas to consider, which is accelerated to quite a lot higher velocity than the bullet, I've read ~7000 fps. So the 416 Rigby will have greater recoil than the .404 Jeffery with equal weight bullet and equal muzzle velocity, due to the greater powder mass. My Woodleigh manual gives:

1) .404 Jeffery 400 gr bullet 2140 fps using 80 gr R17 old standard load
2) .404 Jeffery 400 gr bullet 2400 fps using 88 gr R17 new standard
3) .416 Rigby 410 gr bullet 2435 fps using 95 gr R17 standard

Load 3 has 20% greater momentum and 25% greater energy at the muzzle than load 1, using about equal bullet mass at velocities standard to the cartridges. At approximately equal velocity, load 3 has 11% greater momentum and 15% greater energy at the muzzle than load 2. The difference in bullet mass between the 416 and the 404 is 2.5%, included in these calcs, but ~ negligible.

Based on this, there should be significantly lower recoil for the old standard Jeffery than the Rigby, in otherwise equal rifles. Backing off to the old standard .404 Jeffery load will do a lot to improve Mr. Short's problem. The old standard load was found acceptable in Africa for years, though I've read that there was some user request for 100 fps higher MV. There is some real advantage to the lighter rifle, for an all day hunter, and little sense in routinely shooting a faster than needed bullet. One could always carry a handful of 2400 fps Jeffery rounds while hunting, and practice with the old standard load.

I hope this works out for you Mr. Short. If you are a hand loader, the solution lies within your ready grasp. If not, you now have incentive to become a hand loader ! Anyone willing to focus and learn can do it.

Other members with hunting experience might comment on the utility of the old standard Jeffery load vs the newer, high velocity load.

I'd love to do a blind test with the exact same rifles loaded to the exact same velocity with the exact same weight and brand bullets. Let's say 400gr Swifts at 2350 FPS. One in 416 Rigby, one in 416 Rem Mag and one in 404J. Have 10 different people fire each rifle three times each with all three rifles. So 9 rounds total per person. I doubt very seriously anyone could tell the difference enough to answer correctly every time which was which.

 

[Andrew Short]

I'd love to do a blind test with the exact same rifles loaded to the exact same velocity with the exact same weight and brand bullets. Let's say 400gr Swifts at 2350 FPS. One in 416 Rigby, one in 416 Rem Mag and one in 404J. Have 10 different people fire each rifle three times each with all three rifles. So 9 rounds total per person. I doubt very seriously anyone could tell the difference enough to answer correctly every time which was which.

I would also love to do this too. Without prior knowledge and just a blind test, I would seriously doubt anyone being able to accurately determine which rifle caliber they were firing.

 

[WAB]

I’m in!

 

[EfRed]

I would also love to do this too. Without prior knowledge and just a blind test, I would seriously doubt anyone being able to accurately determine which rifle caliber they were firing.

Equal rifles, both loaded with R17 to ~ 2400, 11% to 15% difference in muzzle momentum/muzzle energy, you will see a detectable difference.

Maybe people who shoot only 500s or above won't notice it, due to having all their civilized sensibilities pounded out of them by Africa, but anyone else will. For these African guys, I suggest two healthy slugs of Lagavulin right after shooting. They're hurting whether they know it or not ! And, having lost the sensibilities of civilization doesn't mean one is unable to enjoy its greater comforts.

11% to 25% greater recoil for the Rigby is simple math, and will be noticeable, if you don't compensate by changing the rifle. The only reason I re-iterate is that loading the old standard load is a solution for Mr. Short, without having to change his rifle. And its a real and assured solution for lessening recoil.

There is a very noticeable recoil difference between the standard Rigby load and the old standard Jeffery. Compare a 458 Win at 2150 fps to a 450 Rigby at 2400, both with 500 gr bullets. 2150 vs 2400 fps doesn't admit any arguments about relative recoil, especially when you're spewing out an addition 10% to 15% in powder mass with the Rigby.

These calcs only support years of observation in the field, in standard rifles of the time. In that sense, the test has been done many times over. Rest easy, load down to old standard levels for your Jeffery, and enjoy what is bound to be the gentlest shooting fully capable African cartridge.

 

[EfRed]

...and seeking out powders that offer greater efficiency will also help.

 

[Lee in Texas]

If you decide to add weight to the stock, consider tungsten instead of lead. You can get it affordably as used Mallory Metal; tungsten alloy slugs used for balancing high performance crankshafts. I bought a bunch of them secondhand on eBay. They are available in two diameters and two heights. They weigh a lot more than lead, giving more flexibility on where it is added. I made a plaster mold of the larger size to find out the weight difference between the tungsten and lead shot encased in epoxy.

 

[Lee in Texas]

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[spike.t]

Shot my ahr 404 and @PeteG cz 416 and neither of us could tell any difference...had a few 416 Rigbys and never found them.a problem...one of my lott weighs 9lbs and is fine...so a 404 at 9.2lbs sounds nice to me...but then I dont like heavy rifles....

 

[Andrew Short]

@spike.t Just put my new optic and warne rings on, it recoils like a different rifle. Maybe the weight of rings, optics and 84 grains of h4350 at 2347 FPS was the difference?
Very happy with that set up!

 

[krish]

Good for you.

 

[Andrew Short]

Good for you.

@krish Thanks buddy!!