Disappointed In My New 404 Jeffery

[Yukontom]

Beautiful .404 there! …. And solid post.

That velocity “window” with a 400grn bullet - which I like to call the Kynoch-Jeffery window - is roughly 1975fps as a minimum to 2125fps as a maximum. 2000fps-2050fps is what I try to load to in my rifle although I use Varget since it’s virtually temp-immune, more so than RL-15 and 4064. Good accuracy. All three powders track close together on the burn-rate chart.

I can also get 2000fps with 5744 which doesn’t require filler material. I got excellent accuracy playing around with the 5744 and Woodleigh’s 350grn Jeff bullets. I stocked up on about ten boxes of those before their fire. The 400grn bullets I have are Hornady DGX SPs. When Woodleigh gets back up to cranking out his 404 RN SPs, I’ll switch to those.

For low-cost practice, I load Bengal Bullets’ hard-cast .424” Jeff boolits. James at BB uses a 390grn mould for a WFNGC boolit, and they’re coated and gas-checked. I stocked up on 500 of those. Initial accuracy back in January was decent using Varget, but I’m still testing them.

With a compact Leupy 2.5x scope in Alaskan Arms QD mounts, a safari stock pak and sling, my AHR .404 rifle is right at the 10.2lb spec.

View attachment 665768

A Beauty there sir... It looks like we closely agree on a 404 Jeff formula. I did waive the rear sight believing they are a backup proposition. I used Talley quick detach rings and when in the bush carry the Talley ghost ring peep that slides onto the rear scope base if needed. Without a rib or island sight it kept the weight just under 10-1/2 lbs. all in.
I think Kynoch kept the loads conservative back in the day because a lot of the rifles that went to Africa were Mauser non-magnum actions. I think they did get used a lot even by game control officers and they were light rifles probably in the 8-9 lb. range. I suspect those loads were probably around or under 2,000 fps. It still took more of a man than me to take that recoil.
On a similar subject I am a big fan of the 40s with a 450-400 3-1/4 nitro in my collection and a between the wars 11.2x72 Mauser. That Mauser only weighs about 8 lbs. and with loads similar to the 404 kicks like the devil.

 

[Phil Giordano]

The Sako pad on the left is a 416 Rigby. The pad on the right is a 458 Winchester. Which one do you think hurts the worst? Although the 458 WM is somewhat lighter than the Sako, the felt recoil is much less with the wider, better designed recoil pad.

View attachment 512054

You get the point! I've always found Sako 85 poor in stock design, don't know how people can shot them in big calibers! I have a Rigby 416 and the pad surface is huge, compared to the Sako! Believe it or not, I had (sold) a Sako Kodiak in 338 that was way more unpleasant to shot, compared to my trusty 416! Perfect stock design can cut in half recoil, granted.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Beautiful .404 there! …. And solid post.

That velocity “window” with a 400grn bullet - which I like to call the Kynoch-Jeffery window - is roughly 1975fps as a minimum to 2125fps as a maximum. 2000fps-2050fps is what I try to load to in my rifle although I use Varget since it’s virtually temp-immune, more so than RL-15 and 4064. Good accuracy. All three powders track close together on the burn-rate chart.

I can also get 2000fps with 5744 which doesn’t require filler material. I got excellent accuracy playing around with the 5744 and Woodleigh’s 350grn Jeff bullets. I stocked up on about ten boxes of those before their fire. The 400grn bullets I have are Hornady DGX SPs. When Woodleigh gets back up to cranking out his 404 RN SPs, I’ll switch to those.

For low-cost practice, I load Bengal Bullets’ hard-cast .424” Jeff boolits. James at BB uses a 390grn mould for a WFNGC boolit, and they’re coated and gas-checked. I stocked up on 500 of those. Initial accuracy back in January was decent using Varget, but I’m still testing them.

With a compact Leupy 2.5x scope in Alaskan Arms QD mounts, a safari stock pak and sling, my AHR .404 rifle is right at the 10.2lb spec.

View attachment 665768

Look forward to hearing more about your load developments. I always thought 325 gr bullets could make for an interesting 404 load. I experimented with a few 307 gr Hammer bullets and 4895 but recoil was worse than my 400 gr loads and not very good group (the barrel may not have been broken in yet).

My 404 98 Mauser weighs ~10.5 lbs using myself standing on a crappy old 1960s bathroom scale. When I placed the order for the barrel, Dan at Lija asked me what profile. "What's a profile?" He must have thought I didn't have a clue about building a rifle. He would have been right (but I proved to be a fast learner). So I asked him what he advised. He suggested #5. Yeah, sure whatever. Lija sent the barrel down the street to Dennis Olsen to be cut, crowned, threaded, reamed, and mounted. When I picked up the rifle after he finished, I was surprised and a bit dismayed at the heavy weight. But at least it balanced well. After the first shot at the range left me badly bleeding, I was very thankful for the heavy barrel profile! I later changed to a 30mm "tactical" 1-4x scope with more eye relief, but 400 gr loads can still hit me if I forget to hang on firmly. It ain't no 30-06. Thankfully, it no longer draws blood but that may be due more to the accumulation of scar tissue between my eyes (also faceplanted the windshield of the '71 Ford Custom my patrol partner wrapped around a tree back in 1973). I cannot imagine what the recoil and muzzle jump would be like if barrel was a lighter profile and shorter than 24". Ugh!

 

[Yukontom]

Look forward to hearing more about your load developments. I always thought 325 gr bullets could make for an interesting 404 load. I experimented with a few 307 gr Hammer bullets and 4895 but recoil was worse than my 400 gr loads and not very good group (the barrel may not have been broken in yet).

My 404 98 Mauser weighs ~10.5 lbs using myself standing on a crappy old 1960s bathroom scale. When I placed the order for the barrel, Dan at Lija asked me what profile. "What's a profile?" He must have thought I didn't have a clue about building a rifle. He would have been right (but I proved to be a fast learner). So I asked him what he advised. He suggested #5. Yeah, sure whatever. Lija sent the barrel down the street to Dennis Olsen to be cut, crowned, threaded, reamed, and mounted. When I picked up the rifle after he finished, I was surprised and a bit dismayed at the heavy weight. But at least it balanced well. After the first shot at the range left me badly bleeding, I was very thankful for the heavy barrel profile! I later changed to a 30mm "tactical" 1-4x scope with more eye relief, but 400 gr loads can still hit me if I forget to hang on firmly. It ain't no 30-06. Thankfully, it no longer draws blood but that may be due more to the accumulation of scar tissue between my eyes (also faceplanted the windshield of the '71 Ford Custom my patrol partner wrapped around a tree back in 1973). I cannot imagine what the recoil and muzzle jump would be like if barrel was a lighter profile and shorter than 24". Ugh!

I'm not sure why you would bother with the 325 grain bullets unless for practice. I think they are useless for dangerous game which is the base purpose of the cartridge.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I'm not sure why you would bother with the 325 grain bullets unless for practice. I think they are useless for dangerous game which is the base purpose of the cartridge.

I killed two buffalo very nicely with 375 bullets that did not weigh 300 gr. Modern technology precludes the need to be bound by 1905 prescriptions for cordite powered 400 gr cup and core bullets. Jeffery originally designed the cartridge for 300 and 400 gr bullets. Three hundred grain were dropped before long because the thin-skinned bullet technology of the day did not work for thick skinned heavy boned dangerous game. Or rather, 300 gr didn't perform as well as 400 gr, which is not to say they didn't work at all. Today's 300 gr mono or bonded bullets are light years advanced compared to what was available in 1920.

 

[Yukontom]

I killed two buffalo very nicely with 375 bullets that did not weigh 300 gr. Modern technology precludes the need to be bound by 1905 prescriptions for cordite powered 400 gr cup and core bullets.

I too have killed buffalo with the same 375 recipe. And i'm sure many buffalo have been killed with lighter bullets but there is a huge amount of validity in the recipe that you mention and seem to think antiquated. It is all about sectional density, frontal area, penetration, and other factors that you need to consider. There is a lot more to it than just bullet weight. Modern bullets just offer an added edge to the proven recipes.

 

[PerH]

300 copper in .404 is very good and flat shooting and the 350 is excellent versatile also

Wonder if anyone made heavier than 450 for it like 475 or 500 grain

 

[Jack Stevens]

A Beauty there sir... It looks like we closely agree on a 404 Jeff formula. I did waive the rear sight believing they are a backup proposition. I used Talley quick detach rings and when in the bush carry the Talley ghost ring peep that slides onto the rear scope base if needed. Without a rib or island sight it kept the weight just under 10-1/2 lbs. all in.
I think Kynoch kept the loads conservative back in the day because a lot of the rifles that went to Africa were Mauser non-magnum actions. I think they did get used a lot even by game control officers and they were light rifles probably in the 8-9 lb. range. I suspect those loads were probably around or under 2,000 fps. It still took more of a man than me to take that recoil.
On a similar subject I am a big fan of the 40s with a 450-400 3-1/4 nitro in my collection and a between the wars 11.2x72 Mauser. That Mauser only weighs about 8 lbs. and with loads similar to the 404 kicks like the devil.

What’s the barrel length on your .404?

 

[Jack Stevens]

I'm not sure why you would bother with the 325 grain bullets unless for practice. I think they are useless for dangerous game which is the base purpose of the cartridge.

The only reason I bought the Woodleigh 350grn bullets, and two boxes of his 347grn .423/10.75x bullets, was to have projectiles to shoot. (And those were all found at Huntingtons before they closed the business). I was having trouble finding any 400grn Jeff bullets.

Then I found out about Bengal Bullets and their long FNGC coated .424” HC boolits. With the g.c. and the coating, they’re close enough to 400grns to load them like 400-grainers. Plus, you could hunt any critter that’s otherwise suitable for killing with hard-cast boolits.

It would be fun to blow up big feral hogs in Texas with these slugs.

 

[Yukontom]

What’s the barrel length on your .404?

Barrel is 24".

 

[Yukontom]

The only reason I bought the Woodleigh 350grn bullets, and two boxes of his 347grn .423/10.75x bullets, was to have projectiles to shoot. (And those were all found at Huntingtons before they closed the business). I was having trouble finding any 400grn Jeff bullets.

Then I found out about Bengal Bullets and their long FNGC coated .424” HC boolits. With the g.c. and the coating, they’re close enough to 400grns to load them like 400-grainers. Plus, you could hunt any critter that’s otherwise suitable for killing with hard-cast boolits.

It would be fun to blow up big feral hogs in Texas with these slugs.

View attachment 665879

Not familiar with Bengal but those are really cool looking bullets. Any idea what the coating is?

 

[sgt_zim]

Agreed Toby! “Hope you’re well by the way”

It’s MRC 99 with custom work but not a custom stock. The LOP is 13 3/4 while the Rigby is 14 1/8.

I have the MRC 99 Alaskan, LH. With the OEM rise and LOP, it was absolutely brutal with factory hornady ammo. Slapped the everloving shit out of my face with every trigger pull.

I put a cheek riser on it and added 1" LOP - my LOP is 14.75 Looks like shit, but its much better now. With scope, I'm about 9.5 lbs. I won't go so far as to say it's a pleasure to shoot, but off of sticks or freehand, it's shootable. Still toying with the idea of a 16 oz Hg recoil reducer.

Best thing about that rifle for me is the trigger is so clean and crisp and so little take up, it's hard to screw up by anticipating recoil

 

[Jack Stevens]

Barrel is 24".

Mine’s 23”. I try to factor that in when handloading in order to get to something resembling ‘original’ Jeff velocity.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Not familiar with Bengal but those are really cool looking bullets. Any idea what the coating is?

No. Some type of ploy-coating. It’s evenly spread and well done.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

No. Some type of ploy-coating. It’s evenly spread and well done.

Sadly, Bengal Bullets, in Oregon not India, has temporarily (hopefully?) ceased production.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Sadly, Bengal Bullets, in Oregon not India, has temporarily (hopefully?) ceased production.

Not to my knowledge.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Not to my knowledge.

Check their website. That's what it said ten minutes ago. Only filling standard orders. They're not taking any new orders ... for now.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Check their website. That's what it said ten minutes ago. Only filling standard orders. They're not taking any new orders ... for now.

Just checked. News to me. I placed an order with the guy a month ago.

 

[Rule 303]

I killed two buffalo very nicely with 375 bullets that did not weigh 300 gr. Modern technology precludes the need to be bound by 1905 prescriptions for cordite powered 400 gr cup and core bullets. Jeffery originally designed the cartridge for 300 and 400 gr bullets. Three hundred grain were dropped before long because the thin-skinned bullet technology of the day did not work for thick skinned heavy boned dangerous game. Or rather, 300 gr didn't perform as well as 400 gr, which is not to say they didn't work at all. Today's 300 gr mono or bonded bullets are light years advanced compared to what was available in 1920.

Need to be careful with this thought process. In 375, most that have used the 350 grain bullet say it put's the 375 into another class and same with 416's using 450 grain bullets. So if 50 grains heavier lifts these calibre's into another class, dose dropping bullet weight by 50 grains take them down a class?

Yes the mono's are susspose to perform as well or better at the lighter weight, but will they penetrate as well in a big heavy body, boned animal with a tough, thick hide? Perfect side on shot at a buff, then most likely, a racking shot from quartering away shot, I don't know but I have my doubts.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Need to be careful with this thought process. In 375, most that have used the 350 grain bullet say it put's the 375 into another class and same with 416's using 450 grain bullets. So if 50 grains heavier lifts these calibre's into another class, dose dropping bullet weight by 50 grains take them down a class?

Yes the mono's are susspose to perform as well or better at the lighter weight, but will they penetrate as well in a big heavy body, boned animal with a tough, thick hide? Perfect side on shot at a buff, then most likely, a racking shot from quartering away shot, I don't know but I have my doubts.

My PH says they will ... IF they have enough gas. Brings to mind the transition to steel shot. The stuff can be made to work but must jump up a couple shot sizes and put as much velocity as possible behind it.

We recovered both 375 bullets from my second buffalo. First shot passed through both lungs and lodged in ribcage of opposite shoulder. That Barnes bullet looked like a half peeled banana and only lost two grains. Those were much lighter bullets than I would have thought we'd be using ... but sure did the job.