Difference between the 450/400 and the .450 3¼

[Bushpig4Ever]

John Pondoro Taylor stated in his African Cartridges book that if he could only have one rifle it would be a 450/400.

He also stated: "I have not heard of anybody with a complaint to make concerning the 9.3 mm cartridge. I did a fair amount of shooting with it, and gave it up simply because I don’t care for magazine rifles but if somebody was to present me with a Westley Richards double built to handle it, I should willingly use it for the remainder of my life.”

I never understood why people want the big cartridges, unless they are professional hunters of course. I know of a lot of local hunters, with the 9,3x62 they killed thousands of buffalo and elephant. A very well-known ph culled countless buffalo with a .30-06. Bring a .375 H & H, you’ll shoot better with it than with one of the big ones. Leave them for the ph. A .375 is plenty enough.

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Problem, for me anyway, is it having a different manual of arms that requires extra practice. The two doubles I bought just recently are for playing (and hunting with) prior to buying a Rigby Rising Bite or an H&H or a Wesley Richards double in a couple of years. By the time one of those purchases happen I would have thousands of rounds through my doubles in addition to dry fire practice of bringing the gun up, reloading, etc., etc.. After all that I would not want to re-learn the manual of arms for a British double.

Train, how you fight. I do the same with handguns. I am a competitive USPSA shooter that shoots about 50K-60K rounds in a year and I dry fire for a tad over an hour each day. I use a pair of single action 2011s in .40 S&W to compete. My CCW is an STI DVC Carry which is a single action 2011 in 9mm with a shorter barrel. Same manual of arms.

I have to admit that I am frankly in awe of someone who can buy not 1, but 2 doubles for play to tide them over while they hunt for a 3rd! I don't know what you do with yourself but my hat's off to you!

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

He also stated: "I have not heard of anybody with a complaint to make concerning the 9.3 mm cartridge. I did a fair amount of shooting with it, and gave it up simply because I don’t care for magazine rifles but if somebody was to present me with a Westley Richards double built to handle it, I should willingly use it for the remainder of my life.”

I never understood why people want the big cartridges, unless they are professional hunters of course. I know of a lot of local hunters, with the 9,3x62 they killed thousands of buffalo and elephant. A very well-known ph culled countless buffalo with a .30-06. Bring a .375 H & H, you’ll shoot better with it than with one of the big ones. Leave them for the ph. A .375 is plenty enough.

I see where you are coming from but I don't think it's the whole picture. What a lot of folks, myself included, want is an excuse to buy a large rifle in a caliber that fascinates them. You will never need, say, a 500 Nitro Express to hunt whitetails here in the states so if it was purely "need" based they would never be able to get one. So they introduce a need, in this case Africa Big Game and suddenly there is a legitimate reason to make that purchase. Also some folks feel more secure chasing their dreams with a larger caliber rifle than the bare-minimum legally allowed rifle. I suppose to me it is like cars. I don't understand why someone want's a super fast muscle car, their going the same speed on the road as a minivan, it's not like owning that car bends the speed limit in their favor. Heck, you could even argue having one of those cars is dangerous since the temptation to mash the petal and "open her up" to see what the car can really do will be powerful! But, though I don't understand the appeal, I let them have their fun. Their money, their dream as long as it isn't hurting folks let people have their eccentricities right?

 

[Opposite Pole]

I see where you are coming from but I don't think it's the whole picture. What a lot of folks, myself included, want is an excuse to buy a large rifle in a caliber that fascinates them. You will never need, say, a 500 Nitro Express to hunt whitetails here in the states so if it was purely "need" based they would never be able to get one. So they introduce a need, in this case Africa Big Game and suddenly there is a legitimate reason to make that purchase. Also some folks feel more secure chasing their dreams with a larger caliber rifle than the bare-minimum legally allowed rifle. I suppose to me it is like cars. I don't understand why someone want's a super fast muscle car, their going the same speed on the road as a minivan, it's not like owning that car bends the speed limit in their favor. Heck, you could even argue having one of those cars is dangerous since the temptation to mash the petal and "open her up" to see what the car can really do will be powerful! But, though I don't understand the appeal, I let them have their fun. Their money, their dream as long as it isn't hurting folks let people have their eccentricities right?

As someone who enjoys big guns and fast cars I agree.

 

[Tanks]

... Bring a .375 H & H, you’ll shoot better with it than with one of the big ones. Leave them for the ph. A .375 is plenty enough.

I disagree that one shoots a .375 H&H better than a larger caliber if one is practiced enough. Now, I'll agree that I shoot a .220 Swift, prone at 4-500 yard prairie dogs and have shot hundreds that way. I wouldn't try to do it with a big bore . Then again, horses for the courses.

I am also not going to depend on the PH to save my a$$. Last elephant charge I had at 15 meters, the PH did not have a shot with the tracker in the way, I did.

Regarding smaller cartridges (even if legal) one other thing John Taylor said was in thick cover one can not have the "perfect shot" all the time and one has to take the shot offered. "The small bore is no use for those conditions -- it can't be relied on to smash massive shoulders and hips. It's no good drilling a neat little hole through the shoulder-blade if you want to anchor your elephant with certainty."

He goes on to state that's where the .450 and above comes in. I can personally attest to that. On one of my elephants the only shot I had at 55 meters was a shoulder shot with a .500 caliber rifle. It did anchor the elephant which I finished off with a heart shot after it laid down. I would not have tried it with a .375 H&H.

 

[Tony Landino]

Hello all!

I am thinking that maybe it's time to take the plunge and pick up a double rifle. I have a nice bolt action .404 and the main thing holding me back was the overlap, I just couldn't get myself to buy a double that would obsolete the .404 and the .404 is about as much kick as I can comfortably handle. Also my wife razzes me about the .404 as it is since here in N.A. there's nothing that really justifies it's use. Anyway I have always had a bit of a hankering for a 450/400 but in doing my research I came across the .450 3 1/4 and now I am confused. They are listed as 2 distinct cartridges, I see both (I think) in doubles but I cannot find a write up telling me the difference between the two! So, gentlemen and women of the jury, I am turning to you. Are the 450/400 and the .450 3 1/4 the same cartridge? If not, does one have a massive leg up on the other? And finally (perhaps most importantly) can anyone give me something to justify the overlap to my wife??
As always I thank you for your help and look forward to reading what you have to say!

 

[Tony Landino]

Hello all!

I am thinking that maybe it's time to take the plunge and pick up a double rifle. I have a nice bolt action .404 and the main thing holding me back was the overlap, I just couldn't get myself to buy a double that would obsolete the .404 and the .404 is about as much kick as I can comfortably handle. Also my wife razzes me about the .404 as it is since here in N.A. there's nothing that really justifies it's use. Anyway I have always had a bit of a hankering for a 450/400 but in doing my research I came across the .450 3 1/4 and now I am confused. They are listed as 2 distinct cartridges, I see both (I think) in doubles but I cannot find a write up telling me the difference between the two! So, gentlemen and women of the jury, I am turning to you. Are the 450/400 and the .450 3 1/4 the same cartridge? If not, does one have a massive leg up on the other? And finally (perhaps most importantly) can anyone give me something to justify the overlap to my wife??
As always I thank you for your help and look forward to reading what you have to say!

Wanna sell the .404?

 

[AES]

The answer is that if it’s a double, just buy the gun you like because neither is as good as a 416 Rigby! .

 

[degoins]

oh no he didn't!!!!

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Wanna sell the .404?

Not a chance lol. I like it too much!

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

The answer is that if it’s a double, just buy the gun you like because neither is as good as a 416 Rigby! .

Well I did end up with the rifle, 450/400 3in NE and, with the help of the kind folks on this site I've gotten comfortable with it. For those who followed that thread, I found out I was cheek welding way too far forward and was resting on the narrowest ridge of the stock, not further back on the actual cheek rest. Once I corrected that, and my posture, it's been great!! Attached is 50 yards, iron sites, off the sticks. I know others can shoot far better, but I'm happy to just be on the target now! Far better than I previously was. Always room for improvement!

 

[DWB]

Here's the 450NE & 450/400 next to each other:

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I once owner a George Gibbs .450-.400 3 1/4 the most accurate double I have ever owned. The rifle had a varied life and was well taken care of, today it resides it Australia. The only problem with the 3 1/4 is it is a little harder to find brass & bullets for. Mine had a .409 to .410 bore. Given the choice between the 3" or the 3 1/4" I would go with the 3" unless you plan on only reloading. Enjoy the caliber I did!

 

[degoins]

Nice groups. I wouldn't mess with a thing.

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Nice groups. I wouldn't mess with a thing.

Well I appreciate that, thank you!

 

[spike.t]

As someone who enjoys big guns and fast cars I agree.

Oh yeah

 

[rookhawk]

.450NE was by far the most popular dangerous game cartridge for India and Africa. The only reason it is unpopular today is that the Brits banned .45 caliber guns and ammo to repress uprisings in the empire. When that happened, many 450s were converted to .470, or surrendered.

I find it very confusing especially since there is a 450/400 3-1/4” and a .450NE 3-1/4”.