Dangerous Game Rifle Caliber for an Enthusiast

[Captain Munro]

Glad to see you found what you were looking for and that you are HAPPY with it!

Very much so, thank you! But it has me addicted and seeking the next high...aka 416 or 458 or 470...and it goes on and on.

 

[BigFan375]

You can tell from my screen name how I feel. Shot more than a dozen plains game with my 375 H&H with none lost and most on the ground very quickly. Like you, I enjoy the nostalgia of the older 'big bore' calibers so when it came time to hunt buffalo, I went with a LH Charles Daly 98 style action chambered for 404 Jeffery. On that trip I took all animals with one shot using 400 gr Barns TSX bullets. Practice from a 'lead sled' so recoil is reduced to more manageable levels. Still after 5-6 shots it gets a bit noticeable...lol.

Being left handed, I was lucky to get my 375 Winchester Safari several years ago. Had it stocked in fiberglass and added new bottom metal with a drop magazine for 4 down and 1 up. Love that rifle. I shoot Barnes Vortex 300 gr TSX ammo with no lost game ever. I made a bad shot on a Gemsbok several years ago that required several hours of tracking, but that was not the rifles fault.

Anyway, all the above threads are well thought out from experienced hunters/gun enthusiasts and deserve due consideration. But in the end, you can hunt anything including elephant with a 375 H&H. Plus if your ammo misses the plane, you can buy replacements most anywhere safari's take place.

Well, that's my two cents. Here's a thought, buy two rifles............lol..........all the best.

Oh, just noticed the thread above, congratulations on your purchase. You will grow to love it more and more the longer you have it.

 

[Alistair]

I hope this is the right section to post this thread...

I am a rifle enthusiast and I love the history behind African exploration, big game hunting, and rifles/cartridges. I was in a gun shop in Bedford, PA (Cove Creek Outfitters) one day and I was allowed to hand a 470NE Double rifle with the lowly price tag of $36,000.00. From that day onward, it was/is my goal to get one of those rifles.

BUT

I am just a government scientist with student loan debt...Fortunately for me, my soon to be fiancé, is willing to spend $2k on an engagement present for me. I know, lucky man here. With that budget in mind, I found new production rifle choices limited to Winchester Model 70 Safari Express and the Ruger Hawkeye African or Guide Gun. I love Ruger rifles, I have the Ruger Scout and it shoots like a dream, but the action on the Winchester is much smoother ( I have tested a few at the gun store). The Winchester is also offered in more traditional and non-proprietary cartridges.

My options for caliber, in the aforementioned rifles, would be 375H&H (the classic with a ton of history), 374 Ruger, 416 Remington Mag, 416 Ruger, and the 458 Win Mag. I am leaning towards the Winchester in 458 Win Mag to get the real big bore feel (and it seems right for the Winchester Model 70 to be chambered in a Winchester Cartridge), but I understand the practical merits of the 375 and the 416 (still big bore).

I have heard many good things about the Model 70 Safari Express as a good out of the box DG rifle. Is there anything else I should know to dissuade me?
I emailed Winchester and they told me the next run of these rifles would be out in early June, so I am watching all the dealers.

Is there any reason to pick the Ruger(s) over the Winchester? I like the ebony fore end, but I could get a custom stock for the Winchester down the road. No plastic stocks in my "hunting rifle battery".

Factory ammo cost comparison and availability?

Which of these cartridge's are the most versatile in for re-loading (bullet selection, availability, price, etc.)? I am not a re-loader yet, but will be eventually due to ammo costs. I am aware of the price tag there. I read a few forum posts about the 458 having re-loading versatility.

Recoil wise, the most I have encountered was a Ruger No. 1 in 45-70 shooting the Hornady LeverEvolution 325 grains off the bench. Those pounded pretty hard from the lightweight rifle, but I could shoot 4-5 rounds in a row on the bench. How would any of these calibers compare to that? I know the Ruger African and Model 70 are heavier firearms, but the rounds they fire have moor oomph than the old 45-70. I also do not plan to scope them as they would be for fun.

In my search, I have also looked into the CZ 550 (now out of production), Montana Rifles (too expensive), and the Kimber Caprivi (also too expensive). I wish I was a rich man, because I would have a safe full of double rifles. Someday I may be able to afford something like a Sabatti Big Five!

Any tips for sighting in one of these bad boys? I know the bench is somewhere I do not want to spend alot of time...Or so I have read.

Your expert assistance will be greatly appreciated. I also hope I did not say anything ignorant in my post! I tried to do a ton of research on the matter.

Happy Hunting!

I had one of the Winchester 70 Safari Express rifles in 375H&H. They're lovely rifles and seem well made at the price point.

Personally, I'd lean towards the .375H&H for several reasons.

Firstly, if you want an enthusiast rifle, a historic cartridge is cool, and that's the best of the bunch listed. Now if they offered 416 Rigby or something, then maybe I'd go that way, but as they don't...

Secondly, the 375 will be easier and cheaper to feed, so you might use it more. Factory is an option (albeit an expensive one) in the 375, in the 458 it may simply not be affordable in any quantity (even if you can actually find any). For reloading, 375 stuff is likely easier to source than 458 as well. The reloading flexibility is good in the 375, with bullets from 225-300gr+ and a wide range of powder options. You could even play around with cast bullets and mild loads if you wanted, although I never did.

Thirdly, I think the .375H&H is a more versatile round. I get that this is a toy effectively, but if you get the 375 you'll have not only a cool DG rifle to live out your lion hunting fantasies, but also a true 300yd capable rifle for larger deer, bears, elk, feral pigs, etc etc. This might mean you'll use it more, which in turns means you'll be better with it if and when you ever get a chance to use it for it's intended purpose on a Safari. I'd also say it's easier to shoot, and in many ways no worse than any other mid-bore rifle cartridge in the real world, especially considering the weight of the Safari Express rifles.

The only thing it doesn't offer which the 458 would, is that real big-bore experience in terms of recoil and energy. A 375 is a heavier cartridge sure, but not in the same league. If that's the main thing you want, then this could be a deal breaker, but if you want a cool rifle, in a cool safari calibre, that's actually usable in the US, 375 is the obvious choice.

 

[Captain Munro]

I had one of the Winchester 70 Safari Express rifles in 375H&H. They're lovely rifles and seem well made at the price point.

Personally, I'd lean towards the .375H&H for several reasons.

Firstly, if you want an enthusiast rifle, a historic cartridge is cool, and that's the best of the bunch listed. Now if they offered 416 Rigby or something, then maybe I'd go that way, but as they don't...

Secondly, the 375 will be easier and cheaper to feed, so you might use it more. Factory is an option (albeit an expensive one) in the 375, in the 458 it may simply not be affordable in any quantity (even if you can actually find any). For reloading, 375 stuff is likely easier to source than 458 as well. The reloading flexibility is good in the 375, with bullets from 225-300gr+ and a wide range of powder options. You could even play around with cast bullets and mild loads if you wanted, although I never did.

Thirdly, I think the .375H&H is a more versatile round. I get that this is a toy effectively, but if you get the 375 you'll have not only a cool DG rifle to live out your lion hunting fantasies, but also a true 300yd capable rifle for larger deer, bears, elk, feral pigs, etc etc. This might mean you'll use it more, which in turns means you'll be better with it if and when you ever get a chance to use it for it's intended purpose on a Safari. I'd also say it's easier to shoot, and in many ways no worse than any other mid-bore rifle cartridge in the real world, especially considering the weight of the Safari Express rifles.

The only thing it doesn't offer which the 458 would, is that real big-bore experience in terms of recoil and energy. A 375 is a heavier cartridge sure, but not in the same league. If that's the main thing you want, then this could be a deal breaker, but if you want a cool rifle, in a cool safari calibre, that's actually usable in the US, 375 is the obvious choice.

I ended up with a 375 for many of the reasons you outlined! I would definitely want a 416 Rigby as well...and a 458...and a 470 haha. The best price on ammo is around $77 a box right now. The 375 is super easy to shoot as well. I find the recoil to be very mild, relatively. Even off the bench. Made a few people very interested at the range.

 

[Captain Munro]

You can tell from my screen name how I feel. Shot more than a dozen plains game with my 375 H&H with none lost and most on the ground very quickly. Like you, I enjoy the nostalgia of the older 'big bore' calibers so when it came time to hunt buffalo, I went with a LH Charles Daly 98 style action chambered for 404 Jeffery. On that trip I took all animals with one shot using 400 gr Barns TSX bullets. Practice from a 'lead sled' so recoil is reduced to more manageable levels. Still after 5-6 shots it gets a bit noticeable...lol.

Being left handed, I was lucky to get my 375 Winchester Safari several years ago. Had it stocked in fiberglass and added new bottom metal with a drop magazine for 4 down and 1 up. Love that rifle. I shoot Barnes Vortex 300 gr TSX ammo with no lost game ever. I made a bad shot on a Gemsbok several years ago that required several hours of tracking, but that was not the rifles fault.

Anyway, all the above threads are well thought out from experienced hunters/gun enthusiasts and deserve due consideration. But in the end, you can hunt anything including elephant with a 375 H&H. Plus if your ammo misses the plane, you can buy replacements most anywhere safari's take place.

Well, that's my two cents. Here's a thought, buy two rifles............lol..........all the best.

Oh, just noticed the thread above, congratulations on your purchase. You will grow to love it more and more the longer you have it.

I would also like a 404 Jef!

 

[Captain Munro]

 

[Alistair]

I ended up with a 375 for many of the reasons you outlined! I would definitely want a 416 Rigby as well...and a 458...and a 470 haha. The best price on ammo is around $77 a box right now. The 375 is super easy to shoot as well. I find the recoil to be very mild, relatively. Even off the bench. Made a few people very interested at the range.

470NE is extremely cool and is my 'grail' big bore fun gun.

I'm looking out for one of these in a classic (preferably british) double, but it's a case of pay down a house faster vs buy one. The right one, at the right price and I might still go for the riflw, but it's a different conversation vs a $2000 Win 70 for sure.

 

[BigFan375]

That's a beauty for sure, just wrong handed...lol. I have very good success with Barnes Vortex ammo with the 300 grain TSX flat base. My longest shot has been around 150-175 yards with good success. However My rifle will keep 3 in about 2" at 200 yards. Certainly good enough for small/large plains game anywhere. And I think they go for about $85+/- a box. All the best.......Lee

Oh, and the 470 NE double is also my 'lottery' winner purchase for sure. English as well. Agree on the pricing as I can almost buy a rental house for the price of a top quality double...lol. All the best.

 

[crs]

CEH,
What are/were the ballistics for that long skinny cartridge? Looks longer than my .405 or .45-90.

 

[CoElkHunter]

CEH,
What are/were the ballistics for that long skinny cartridge? Looks longer than my .405 or .45-90.

The 9.3x80? I have no idea what the ballistics were. I guess take the ballistics for a 9.3x74 and add some more powder and light her off! LOL

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

.404j

 

[crs]

CEH,
I looked up the ballistics for the 9.3x74r with 286 grain bullet and it is similar to that of my .405 WCF with 300 grain bullets.

As a matter of curiosity, I looked up the .404j ballistics for 400 grain Woodleigh bullets and it is 200 fps faster than my .405 Wcf 400 grain bullets.
However, the .404j 450 grain bullet velocity is 2150 fps , the same as the 450 grain NF bullet from my 45-90, a proven killer of large DG such as ele and Cape buff.

I appears that by pure dumb luck my two big bore rifles are smack dab in the middle of some older, better known cartridges! Still not quite up to .458 Win Mag power, but plenty good enough for any African critter.
Or was it American ballistic genius and not luck.?

 

[VertigoBE]

Very classy rifle there @Captain Munro ! Well done!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

A 450/400 double has been very special for a long long time. Add canvas, leather and wood smoke and you are at the pinnacle of the experience.

 

[Captain Munro]

That's a beauty for sure, just wrong handed...lol. I have very good success with Barnes Vortex ammo with the 300 grain TSX flat base. My longest shot has been around 150-175 yards with good success. However My rifle will keep 3 in about 2" at 200 yards. Certainly good enough for small/large plains game anywhere. And I think they go for about $85+/- a box. All the best.......Lee

Oh, and the 470 NE double is also my 'lottery' winner purchase for sure. English as well. Agree on the pricing as I can almost buy a rental house for the price of a top quality double...lol. All the best.

Now I need a decent low power scope. Thinking Leupold VXiii, which I think is the right designation. Could have it confused.
Love the 470! I'd also take a 450 NE or a 500 NE.

 

[Captain Munro]

Very classy rifle there @Captain Munro ! Well done!

Thank you, sir. Absolute joy to shoot. I also like to lay it across my lap when I have a glass of scotch or bourbon, while reading Capstick.

 

[IvW]

For me the ultimate rifle for DG game is a 500 Jeff. Mine is built on a Brno ZKK 602 Magnum action. I have always used 570gr bullets.

I am an old school hunter and I strongly believe that premium grade heavy for caliber bullets are the way to go.
High SD bullets of premium quality has always been the recipe for succes on DG.
.3 SD has always been the benchmark but I can tell you that .330 or a bit over are in a different class.

Look at all old succesfull cartridges for DG....what made them work at velocities as low as 2100fps?

Velocity? No
Energy? No

SD yes...
Premium controlled expansion and solids that do not deform.

Look at the SD of 450/400NE, 458 500 gr, 416 and then it becomes clear.....

I am in progress of having the following bullets made....
.375 330gr
.423 430gr
.510 600gr

This will give SD of .330 or better at 2300 fps the perfect combination of speed and SD in premium grade bullets....

The ultimate for DG cartridges

 

[VertigoBE]

Thank you, sir. Absolute joy to shoot. I also like to lay it across my lap when I have a glass of scotch or bourbon, while reading Capstick.

Who doesn't like to do just that !

 

[VertigoBE]

For me the ultimate rifle for DG game is a 500 Jeff. Mine is built on a Brno ZKK 602 Magnum action. I have always used 570gr bullets.

I am an old school hunter and I strongly believe that premium grade heavy for caliber bullets are the way to go.
Hi SD bullets of premium quality has always been the recipe for succes on DG.
.3 SD has always been the benchmark but I can tell you that .330 or a bit over are in a different class.

Look at all old succesfull cartridges for DG....what made them work at velocities as low as 2100fps?

Velocity? No
Energy? No

SD yes...
Premium controlled expansion and solids that do not deform.

Look at the SD of 450/400NE, 458 500 gr, 416 and then it becomes clear.....

I am in progress of having the following bullets made....
.375 330gr
.423 430gr
.510 600gr

This will give SD of .330 or better at 2300 fps the perfect combination of speed and SD in premium grade bullets....

The ultimate for DG cartridges

@IvW a few questions on your statements here:

Why would you consider the 500 Jeffery above all others as a DG cartridge (for bolt actions I suppose you meant)?

for the .375H&H, you are having bullets made in 330grains. Why not step it up to 350 grains, would this not give an even higher SD?

thanks,

V.

 

[IvW]

@IvW a few questions on your statements here:

Why would you consider the 500 Jeffery above all others as a DG cartridge (for bolt actions I suppose you meant)?

for the .375H&H, you are having bullets made in 330grains. Why not step it up to 350 grains, would this not give an even higher SD?

thanks,

V.

500 Jeff most devistatingly effective DG cartridge I haveever used and seen used on DG.

Yes in a bolt action. Only time you need a double is for Leopard and Lion. My opinion. In which case it is a toss up between a 450/400 NE or a 500/416NE...
500 Jeff is devestating on Lion but too much for leopard. Leopard follow up requires a specialised setup due to the speed etc involved in a follow up

I have used 340gr, 350gr and 380gr bullets extensively in the 375 H&H.

However SD alone is not the holy grail I need 2300 fps without pressure as well..

The 404 Jeff bullets are for my daughters rifle that I am going to restock for her. She is studying nature managemnt is currently in the Kruger National park on a tracking and trailing course and may be off to the BVC next year for her practical.....wild Africa big 5 country....404 Jeff perfect for her the 500 Jeff I use is a bit much for her...she will also be doing her PH licence later this year.