Dangerous Game Double Rifle - Side by Side vs Over Under

[WisconsinKen]

Hello everyone.

At some point, I hope to pull the trigger on buying a double rifle. My sights are set on a .375 H&H. While looking, I have found a couple really nice over / unders. They are priced a few grand less than an equivalent Chapuis SXS.

If the equivalent SXS and O/U both have ejectors and both open completely without having to break it open over my knee, what is the realistic advantage of the SXS over the O/U?

Thank you for your guidance.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Three things will detract value from a double rifle:

• Over Under Configuration
• Rimless Cartridge Chambering
• Single Trigger

You are considering a double with two of the three negative features. That’s okay if you are aware of how these devalue the rifle.

Over under rifles have to be opened at a greater angle (much further) that do side by side configurations. This could hinder fast reloads.

Rimless cartridges require a spring-loaded pawl machined into extractor. That’s one more thing that could fail. I’ve had Chapuis and Merkel doubles with single pawls in each extractor. They functioned as designed. I also own a Heym 88 in 458 Winchester made in 1986. It has dual pawls in each extractor. I’ve owned the rifle for three of it’s 39 years of life and have fired it 500 times. I think it’s been fired at least 500 times before I became it’s caretaker. Let’s call it 1000 rounds and it’s pawls still function as designed.

Rimless cartridges such as the 375 H&H also operate at higher pressures than rimless counterparts. I would NOT own any double in a rimless chambering that does not have a Greener cross bolt or its equivalent.

The Kresten cross bolt appears to be a similar to a Greener for over under guns. I once owned a 375 H&H over under that would open slightly whenever I fired the top barrel. I really liked that rifle but had to pay JJ Perodeau to add more lockup. JJ also informed me that my 2500 fps 300 gr TSX loads were a little warm for this rifle. Once JJ repaired it, I passed it on to a new caretaker who would appreciate it.

Single triggers turn double, separate rifles into one rifle with a single point of failure. Nuff said?

Now, in theory the recoil forces on the rifle and shooter, SxS rifles’s barrels move outward from the centerline of the gun. This outward movement is of course along with the upward movement. Remember guns start their recoil as soon as the bullet starts to move from the brass into the rifling. The SxS rifle must be regulated for specific loads so that the point of impact of bullets fired from right and left barrels are the same at specific range from the rifle. That may be 50, 70, 100 or more meters. Most are regulated to have the same POI at less than 100 meters. To me, ideally the bullets would travel parrel to each other with POI the distance of the center of the barrels from 0 to infinity. That would however be nearly impossible with variables such as humans and other things...

A O/U rifle’s barrels each recoil upwards rather than side to side. In theory, the deviation of POI between bullets fired from top and bottom barrels should be much less than a SxS. If this theory is correct, the O/U rifle(s) should regulate to a wider range of load variations.

If you like the O/U rifle, and it is priced below, maybe significantly below a SxS rifle of comparable quality, grade, workmanship and so on, buy it and enjoy it! Just remember that if you decide to sell it someday, only a small portion of those desiring a double rifle will consider a O/U.

PS: There is an AH sub-forum specifically for double rifles...

Photos below are of a Greener and Kersten cross bolts on SxS and O/U guns

 

[TTundra]

@Mark A Ouellette summed it up nicely. A few threads on AH to read thru, below being pretty recent.

Why are there no Double Rifles which are Over and Under?

I am used to hunting in the UK where just about everyone uses a bolt action (saw a Ruger No1 once), but new Safari Hunting and am learning of the passion for Doubles rifles, particularly for Dangerous Game. The Doubles only seem to come in Side by Side? Is there a reason for this? Is...

www.africahunting.com

 

[Altitude sickness]

Wise words from Mark.

“If you like the O/U rifle, and it is priced below, maybe significantly below a SxS rifle of comparable quality, grade, workmanship and so on, buy it and enjoy it! Just remember that if you decide to sell it someday, only a small portion of those desiring a double rifle will consider a O/U.”

As luck would have. I think an O/U may have come up for sale in the AH classifieds that fits his example. A Heym for 7 grand

 

[BeeMaa]

@Mark A Ouellette stuck the landing on his post. Stay with SxS configuration, rimmed cartridges and double triggers for your best ROI.

If you REALLY are stuck on a .375 caliber in a double rifle, there is the 375F (Flanged Nitro Express) or the 9.3x74R. Some consider these cartridges a bit underpowered for DG and you will need to check with your PH about using the 9.3 because it's not universally legal for DG. All .375 caliber cartridges are legal everywhere for DG.

Moving up to the 450/400NE (3 inch also called the 400JEFFERY) starts to approach the energy levels of a 375H&H and will retain better resale value.

The bottom line best choice in caliber for a double is the 470NE (3-1/4 inch) based on ammo availability and resale in the future. Learning to shoot it is another story and being able to afford the ammo...well you don't get into hunting Africa with a double rifle to SAVE money.

 

[WisconsinKen]

Thanks Mark. Most of those points were on my radar. A few were not. Appreciate the insight.

I did a search of SxS vs O/U and didn’t get any hits so I just posted a fresh thread.

 

[Graham Hunter]

I agree with all of the above with the exception of time to a SXS vs OU. The difference in distance when both are opened is very slight. I have never seen anyone talented enough to just open the gun to it's stopping point. The difference in time would be neglible! Especially in a dangerous situation.

 

[BeeMaa]

I agree with all of the above with the exception of time to a SXS vs OU. The difference in distance when both are opened is very slight. I have never seen anyone talented enough to just open the gun to it's stopping point. The difference in time would be neglible! Especially in a dangerous situation.

Goes hand-in-hand with the debate of holding two cartridges horizontally is (argubly) easier/faster to reload when using a SxS vs. holding them vertically on an O/U.

BTW - I'm not taking one side or the other. I don't even own a double rifle. But if I did, it would be a Blaser S2 or Krieghoff BF in 500/416NE. Figure if I can afford to have the rifle, I could afford the ammo and a one month safari for all of the D7.

 

[xausa]

My first shotgun was a Browning Five Shot automatic. When I began shooting skeet, the depth of the fore end of a Browning O/U felt right (and still does). When I started shooting International Skeet competetively, I switched to a Perazzi and my first double rifle was a Krieghoff "Teck" O/U with Kersten bolts. I once had that rifle "double" on me. I can't imagine the amount of stress on the action, but it was undamaged in any way.

I ordered additional barrel sets in .375 H&H Magnum and 20 gauge 3" Magnum. All performed flawlessly on game. I took elephant and Cape buffalo, lion and leopard with the rifle, all but the elephant were one shot kills. It went down, but never got up again, thanks to several follow up shots. I could get no closer than 50 yards because of a very upset companion elephant. Getting a fatal shot with an elephant on the ground 50 yards away with invervening undergrowth was not an easy task, but well worth the effort expended.

 

[Rubberhead]

SxS guns point better than O/Us. O/U's aim better. The Under barrel of an O/U has less muzzle jump than the O barrel or either S barrel. This allows for quicker re-acquisition of the second barrel. This is why competitive clay shooters, pretty much, shoot O/U guns exclusively. I imagine that is even more true with a big bore rifle.

I honestly believe that if aliens came to Earth, stole all of our guns and wiped gun history from our minds and history books, that modern man would quickly re-invent guns and that the O/U would be everybody's favorite. Modern Side-by-sides survive off of nostalgia. Yes, I want to kill a buffalo with a SxS .375 H&H...

 

[SETH RINGER]

IF YOU ARE GOING TO MOUNT A SCOPE, I THINK THEY LOOK WAY BETTER ON AN O/U.

 

[Red Leg]

In a double rifle, I actually prefer an OU. I hasten to add that I own and shoot both. I have always believed the current popularity of the SxS design can be traced directly to the outcome of the First World War. Had Germany and Austria won that war, the great hunting areas of Tanzania (German East Africa) and Namibia would have remained German colonies. It is even quite possible the UK would have lost British East Africa (Kenya and Uganda) to Germany as well. India could have well gained independence far sooner than it did truncating the British hunting experience there.

The safari industry that began before the war would have continued under the Germans. They represent a long hunting culture and tradition. But when Hemingway traveled there for the first time between the wars his guide likely would have been named Hans or Dieter rather than Phillip. It is also quite likely his PH's dangerous game stopping rifle would have been an OU in a 10 point something mm caliber and we would all be typing today about the rarity of those strange British double rifles in those long forgotten calibers.

I will agree that the spring loaded tabs on a rimless chambered OU or SxS rifle look rather dainty. My only reply is that I have never had one of them fail and Austrian and German gunmakers actually do know how how to build reliable ones. Yes, rimless loads create a bit more pressure. I will simply say my Blaser S2 with .375 barrels is the most useful trustworthy double that I have ever used.

I totally agree with respect to triggers, A double rifle or shotgun should have two of them.

I do not agree that an OU is slower to reload than a SxS. I prove it to myself whenever I take one or the other out in either shotgun or rifle configuration. In fact many of the new double rifles are so stiff that they practically have to be broken open over one's knee. Few get fired enough to have the quick swing open of an OU.

Finally, I scope my doubles. An OU is far easier to regulate than a SxS. Vertical distribution is far easier to manage over range than horizontal. My Blaser S2 proves it can be done, but it typically takes a very special SxS to be a trustworthy 300 yard rifle.

With respect to value @Mark A Ouellette is correct. Traditional rifles in traditional calibers are a better "investment." I personally do not buy rifles as investments, but I know it is important to many.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I am obviously in the camp that believes a SxS looks more classic. Because that is what I own. I just prefer they way they look. And man what a weak argument:>)))

The practical German/Dutch part of me has a hard time with the incongruity of me owning a SxS rifle because of the classic style. and admitting that my O/U shotguns leave SxS shotguns in the dust for real performance.

The only SxS shotgun I currently own is a 12 gauge coach gun. Even brand new my O/U guns open and close like they should. No wrestling them into submission to open and close

So if we were all logical, practical beings, instead of sentimental people. We would do as Red Leg suggests and use O/U rifles more.

Now back to ogling and fondling my SXS double

 

[sureshot375]

O/U is a vastly superior design. It is also less popular.

The cons from a functional standpoint are non-existent. It is often blindly repeated that SxS is faster to reload because it opens at a lesser angle. As a practical matter the difference in time to open and close one vs the other would have to be a tiny fraction of a second; so insignificant as to be a non issue in the world of human operated devices. Further, the O/U is easier to reload because it opens further to provide greater clearance. If reloading with your strong hand the O/U opens up into a more natural orientation for loading. I think the average person can load and shoot the O/U faster than a SXS.

Now for the real advantages of the O/U…

Easier to regulate because both barrels are on center, the recoil goes straight back.

Easier to shoot and recover for second shot because recoil is on center.

I think the biggest advantage is that your target and the surrounding areas are much less obscured with a O/U. When you look down a SXS a significant portion of your field of view is blocked by barrels. With an O/U one barrel is hidden out of your view allowing for better target acquisition in a dynamic situation.

In terms of a design and function standpoint, the O/U is a no brainer. How many competitive clay shooters shoot a SxS?? None, that’s how many.

So why are SXS more desirable? They look cool. Nostalgia.

Maybe I should become a famous gun writer, oh hell I guess I mean you tuber because I think the days of famous writers are dwindling, and convince the good people at Krieghoff to make the Sureshot375 signature series of dangerous game O/Us.

 

[steve white]

Your off eye is more likely to take over focus on the larger image of stacked barrels and cause miss due to crossfire, IMHO. It is my humble opinion because it happens to me!
Some also suggest that SXS picks up visually against a background of foliage a bit better. It may have been Brewster who suggested that.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

For calibers such as .577 Nitro Express or .600 Nitro Express, the side by side platform is much more advantageous. For calibers such as .500 Nitro Express or smaller, it all boils down to individual preference. I personally prefer side by side because I have been shooting shotguns and double rifles in this configuration all my life. But I've observed that novice shooters these days learn to become proficient with over & unders much quicker than they do with side by sides (as a general rule) due to the single sighting plane. Case in point: My father and I both prefer side by sides because we find them far more instinctive to shoot. But my son, daughter, daughter-in-law, son-in-law and my granddaughter all prefer over & unders. My eldest grandson is the exception, however. He's becoming increasingly fond of side by side shotguns and double rifles (proud grandfather moment!).

In regards to resale value, I would say that Americans (generally speaking) do tend to avoid over & under double rifles (albeit purely for psychological factors) because they don't evoke the "Traditional Golden Age Safari" feel the way a side by side double rifle does. But Continental Europeans (particularly Germans, Austrians, Italians, French, Belgians, Spainards & Czechs) see over & under double rifles as very standard hunting tools which are extremely popular for driven boar or roe deer hunts in their native hunting grounds.

In regards to double rifles being chambered in rimless calibers, I am personally not a fan. During a Safari to Tanzania in 1978, I had a Belgium made boxlock ejector double rifle (chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum) fail to extract the empty cartridge cases while I was trying to reload after the first 2 shots. It was a particularly hair-raising experience considering that this occurred during a Cape buffalo hunt. If that brute had decided to charge after the first 2 shots, then (barring any form of intervention from my white hunter) I would not have been amongst the living today (because I was completely defenseless as I essentially had a very big & heavy stick in my hands). But fortunately, he made off in the opposite direction and expired before going 60 yards.

Nevertheless, reliability ultimately varies from one manufacturer to another. I was using a no-name Belgian guild gun built on an Auguste Francotte action. But as @Mark A Ouellette can personally attest to, Heym double rifles in rimless calibers are absolutely nothing short of 100% reliable.

In regards to the single vs double trigger debate, my father is an absolute traditionalist. A double barrel needs double triggers, or else it's a monstrous aberration of nature according to him. Generally speaking, I agree with him. But for the last 34 years, my shotgun of choice has been a Beretta Model 626E boxlock ejector in 12 gauge 3" Magnum with an intertia operated single selective trigger. I have yet to experience a reliability problem with it, which is particularly impressive considering that out of all of my 4 firearms... this is the one which sees the most frequent & regular use.

The renowned ivory hunter, Captain James Sutherland shot practically all of his elephants with a Westley Richards droplock ejector in .577 Nitro Express that was equipped with a mechanical opearated single selective trigger. Westley Richards actually made quite a name for themselves by manufacturing double rifles with singe triggers.

But these are the cream of the crop. Cheaper double rifles (if such a thing even exists) are almost never offered with the option for single triggers, because it is far more costly to make them reliable (compared to double triggers).

 

[Red Leg]

Your off eye is more likely to take over focus on the larger image of stacked barrels and cause miss due to crossfire, IMHO. It is my humble opinion because it happens to me!
Some also suggest that SXS picks up visually against a background of foliage a bit better. It may have been Brewster who suggested that.

I have never heard of crossfire as an issue. I shoot everything - handgun, rifle, doubles, OUs with both eyes open. Are you sure you are using your dominate eye?

 

[Altitude sickness]

As Red Leg said. Perhaps your sight picture is not correct. This is sight picture for slow accurate or longer distance shots. Also when teaching beginners. Pistol, shotgun and rifle.

The target and rear site is slightly blurred and the focus is on the front site. This needs to be burned in through muscle memory. Then after many reps. Your brain will set you up for dynamic shooting. Moving targets or rapid fire.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Then after many reps of proper sight alignment, and of course grip, and other fundamentals.

When shooting quickly or at moving targets. You need to open both eyes and learn to ignore the double vision picture from the non dominant eye. Which your brain will take care of if you have built in the fundamentals first.

Also the sight focus needs to switch from the front sight to now allowing the front and rear sight to slightly blur and now focus on the target.



If you have built in muscle memory through hundreds or thousands of reps. your brain will line up the sights, and all you need to do is stare at the target

If you do it every day, it will take at least 20 days to begin to burn it in.

Dry firing every day for 20 days helps

 

[AZDAVE]

I own and shoot both.
The SxS version is the more classic english style. and the O/U is more continental.

If you look at competitive shotgun competitions you will usually find very few SxS.

The O/U is easier to regulate for the factory and I have found them easier to develop loads for. As for the opening to reload I developed a manual of arms for myself , when opening a O/U rifle or shot gun I just in my right hand rotate it 90 degrees and load it like a SxS.

Both @Red Leg and @Mark A Ouellette have already laid out in detail pro's and cons of each.

I love both platforms and will continue to shoot both using the appropriate caliber for the game I am hunting. The SxS had the classic look and the O/U has the form and function.

I have never shot a O/U in 375 H&H. If you are open to other calibers I know where there is a nice 450/400 that I have handled and if was in the market for another double I would have bought.

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