Cutting Edge Bullets

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@michael458 Good morning. Could you give me a couple powder recommendations that would be a starting point to work up a load for the 135gr 7mm raptor in a 7 REM MAG.
and the100gr raptor in a 6.5 grendel.

I keep looking at the 50 B7M and might have to give you a call at some point.

Dave,

In the past CEB has been good about providing load data. Just send them an email for what you're looking for and they'll get back to you with at least some decent starting points.

 

[AZDAVE]

@michael458 @PHOENIX PHIL Thank you for the response I will take a look at both options.

 

[Alaska Luke]

That sounds very interesting. How do CEB perform at lower velocity/longer range? I ask because the trajectory of my 358 isn't all that much worse then my 375. The trouble is the blunt bullets (Speer etc) lose velocity pretty fast to the point they might not be expanding. If those 358 Raptors expand at 1600 fps as claimed (or even 1800 fps) they would be very nice.

 

[michael458]

How do CEB perform at lower velocity/longer range? I ask because the trajectory of my 358 isn't all that much worse then my 375.

I can only answer that for the larger bore Raptors, since I have tested most of those in the very early stages. The Low Velocity Shear rate is at or close to 1600--1700 fps, with the exception of the 250 Socom that has the cuts in the blades it will shear down to 1200-1300 fps.

If Dan and crew at CEB say the small bores will shear down to around 1600 fps, then you can pretty much count on that. They are not blowing smoke, and they are all long range shooters and hunters, so these things are important to them.

I am just off the range right now with a 358 Ultra since you mention it. I have it set up shooting both 150 and 160 Raptors, the 160s are copper. Running a little slower than top end, at 3611 fps. Rifle is sighted for these, and I had some left over 200 Barnes TSX and 225 TSX, wanted to check POI and velocity with New Norma 300RUM brass....... I am running modest, the 200s at 3200 and the 225s at 3100. POI with these is a tad low, but workable. I think I am going to have to set up my old 358 STA too at some point.......

 

[jwp475]

Raptors HATE BRUSH....... That is a fact...... Not many soft/expanding, trauma inflicting bullets do well in brush, but Raptors despise brush...... A Frame any better? Maybe........

I will tell you what really is a true brush buster, and that is the #13 Solids..... I have never seen anything go through brush, trees, sticks, limbs other obstacles, and get where you intend like a CEB Solid.... Nothing........I have shot through trees big as 10-12 inches, twigs, 2-4 inch trees, you name it, and it goes through like a laser to target.......If I knew I had to shoot through sticks, trees, brush, twigs or anything else...... CEB Solids....... End of story............


450s...... anything else is waste, you just don't need more, in fact, the 450 #13s will give you more..... When you exit elephant, broadside, probably exit medium elephant end to end, and will end to end Buffalo and exit, all dead straight, what more do you want?

Use the 50 Raptor in your 223............. There is nothing that can equal that bullet in 223............

What is your opinion of the #13 ar 400 grains instead of 450?

 

[Alaska Luke]

Michael458 thanks for that. I'll probably try some of those 160 grain bullets for my little 358. If they work that well my 358 should do basically everything my 308 currently does with a bit more horsepower in case I run into a grizzly. One gun for (almost) everything. I like it.

 

[michael458]

What is your opinion of the #13 ar 400 grains instead of 450?

@jwp475 ......... from the reply I am going to believe you are talking the 400 #13 Lever Solid as opposed to the #13 450 Safari solid....... The 400 Lever Solid has a shorter nose projection above the top band of the bullet. The 450 Safari Solid has a much longer nose projection above that top band. If one believes in the bubble in aqueous medium, animal tissue, then the length of the Nose Projection was the LAST Factor we discovered in Terminal Penetration of Solids. And it is an important factor. The shorter Lever Gun Nose projection is simple, it has to be short to work through lever gun actions, otherwise it will not feed/function in those guns. The Shorter Nose Projection does not push the bubble past the base of the bullet, and the bubble starts to collapse on the base, causing drag, slowing the bullet down during terminals, and therefore penetration is not as deep as the longer nose projection that pushes the bubble outside of the base of the bullet, allowing the bullet a free ride basically.

We tested this in .458 caliber........

This is a 325 gr #13 Lever Gun Solid.....> Take note of the Shorter Nose Projection, from memory I believe the nose projection is something like .370 or close, above the band.......

And here, is the longer Nose Projection 325 #13 Solid, same gun, nearly the same velocity, the only difference is the Longer Nose Projection of .600

And here, this test demonstrates that "Nose Projection" is a more important factor than SD.......Below is a 400 gr #13 LEVER Solid........Short Nose projection.

And of course, the 450 Safari #13 Solid with its even longer nose projection, designed specifically for most Bolt gun cartridges............

If working with the Lever Guns, these are superb solids, but because they are lever guns, there are limitations incurred because of the length of the action..........

If you had a longer nose projection 400 #13, at .600 or more, then the only factor between the 450 and the 400 would be SD, and at that point SD would start to have effect..........

 

[michael458]

Michael458 thanks for that. I'll probably try some of those 160 grain bullets for my little 358. If they work that well my 358 should do basically everything my 308 currently does with a bit more horsepower in case I run into a grizzly. One gun for (almost) everything. I like it.

No thanks needed, but you are welcome. If I were running 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen I would definitely be all over the 150-160 Raptors. I believe they would enhance the cartridge greatly. I have owned both, but that was Pre-Raptor, and sold them. Currently my big 358 is the Ultra, and I still have one 358 STA, which has been retired. I think I will drag it out and get it running again sometime soon...... 358 has always been a favorite for me, I love the 338s, but something special about 358s. Frankly however, neither will go to the field again because of that tiny little 9.3 B&M, that comes in at 6.5 lbs and 38 inches overall..... using a 200 FB Raptor it does all my Medium work, if I had any.....

Another one to look at is the .358 caliber 160 Maximus, it is the next best thing to a Raptor.... Because of its nose profile it is very good in the 358 MGP... Which I just forgot to mention until now.... Its based on a AR............ So not really relevant here....... but a very limited capacity .358.......

Strictly for Comparison to a common Conventional Bullet, so you understand what the Depth of Penetration means in the above tests.......Many of you will recognize these bullets and what they can do in the field..........

 

[jwp475]

No thanks needed, but you are welcome. If I were running 358 Winchester or 35 Whelen I would definitely be all over the 150-160 Raptors. I believe they would enhance the cartridge greatly. I have owned both, but that was Pre-Raptor, and sold them. Currently my big 358 is the Ultra, and I still have one 358 STA, which has been retired. I think I will drag it out and get it running again sometime soon...... 358 has always been a favorite for me, I love the 338s, but something special about 358s. Frankly however, neither will go to the field again because of that tiny little 9.3 B&M, that comes in at 6.5 lbs and 38 inches overall..... using a 200 FB Raptor it does all my Medium work, if I had any.....

Another one to look at is the .358 caliber 160 Maximus, it is the next best thing to a Raptor.... Because of its nose profile it is very good in the 358 MGP... Which I just forgot to mention until now.... Its based on a AR............ So not really relevant here....... but a very limited capacity .358.......

View attachment 427304View attachment 427305View attachment 427308

Strictly for Comparison to a common Conventional Bullet, so you understand what the Depth of Penetration means in the above tests.......Many of you will recognize these bullets and what they can do in the field..........

View attachment 427306View attachment 427303View attachment 427307

I was thinking more in line with a 400 grain solid #13 in the 458 Win/ Lott. Instead of the 450. A mono metal expanding & solid bother at 400 grains as an all around combo.

What is your opinion of this combo

 

[michael458]

I was thinking more in line with a 400 grain solid #13 in the 458 Win/ Lott.

If you took a 400 gr #13, and had a nose projection of .600 or better, then it would be a really good solid, and would accomplish most common missions. The only place I think it might come up short of the 450 Performance would be the end to end and getting the job done in less than desirable circumstances. In 458 Winchester and 458 Lott, I would still opt for the 450 for those hard to accomplish missions..........

If you excluded elephant, hippo and buffalo very tough shots, then the 400 and a matching Raptor, of 370 gr, both with longer nose projections, that would be a fantastic combination........

For those that pooh pooh the use or need of solids...... Read My Signature below, and I can give plenty of instances where SOLIDS have saved the day.......

 

[ldmay375]

These three bullets have my in interest.
The 325 grain Lever Gun Safari Solid, 370 grain Lever Gun Safari Raptor, and the 400 grain Lever Gun Safari Solid.

The 325 grain solid for 45-70’s.
The 370 Lever Gun Safari Raptor and the 400 grain Lever Gun Safari Solid, for the 45-70’s, 458 Winchester, and 458 Lott.
These would strictly be for use in Alaska, distances under 100 yds.

1. The 325 Lever Solids to replace hard cast 420-460 grain bullets in the 45-70.
How would / do this compare for penetration ?

2. The 370 Lever Safari Raptor for 45-70, 458 Winchester, and 458 Lott to replace the 45-70 hard cast, and the 458 Winchester / Lott bullets from 400 through 450 grain expanding bullets.

3. The 400 Lever solids to play around in all three cartridges.

 

[Alaska Luke]

With that kind of performance I might consider retiring my 225 grain Swift "bear" loads.

Might have to. I imagine the POI between a 160 gr Raptor and a 225 gr Swift would be dramatic. Probably try either the 180 grain to keep POI similar go for all lighter bullets. Decisions.

 

[michael458]

These three bullets have my in interest.
The 325 grain Lever Gun Safari Solid, 370 grain Lever Gun Safari Raptor, and the 400 grain Lever Gun Safari Solid.

The 325 grain solid for 45-70’s.
The 370 Lever Gun Safari Raptor and the 400 grain Lever Gun Safari Solid, for the 45-70’s, 458 Winchester, and 458 Lott.
These would strictly be for use in Alaska, distances under 100 yds.

1. The 325 Lever Solids to replace hard cast 420-460 grain bullets in the 45-70.
How would / do this compare for penetration ?

2. The 370 Lever Safari Raptor for 45-70, 458 Winchester, and 458 Lott to replace the 45-70 hard cast, and the 458 Winchester / Lott bullets from 400 through 450 grain expanding bullets.

3. The 400 Lever solids to play around in all three cartridges.

@Idmay375 ......... I am going to give you my thoughts on your interests mentioned above, and what I would do if it were me.

#1 Alaska..... meaning bear, moose and such. No Buffalo intended...... To me, this is very important in our considerations. And, on top of that you are smart enough to keep ranges reasonable.

Lets start with Your #1......

1. The 325 Lever Solids to replace hard cast 420-460 grain bullets in the 45-70.
How would / do this compare for penetration ?

In the early days, when it came to 45/70, our premiums were mostly some sort of big hard cast bullet. In those days, I used the big Cast Performance bullets. And very honestly my opinion was not so good, and in some cases they let me down a few times. But, there was little choice then.

One of the big problems with any of the cast bullets, they will start to distort during terminals, if they hit something hard, bone, then the distortion is increased, and at no time is it predictable. While true that when these bullets distort they destroy more tissue, but penetration suffers immensely.

Even slowing the bullets down considerably there are inconsistent results.......

Most guys try to push Cast too hard, and most of the time performance is increased by slowing the the bullets down so as to not distort as much due to velocity. However, even at lower velocity, things don't always work with cast like they should. Remember what I said about consistency?

I was asked by a fellow shooter one time to test many of his Black Powder cartridges loads for him. This is a very experienced shooter and has a lot of experience under his belt.. He was not happy with the tests I conducted, and because of that he held some animosity towards me. I was not offended, and still believe that this was basically a good chap, just did not like the message I sent him........... I tested a lot of loads and different bullets for him, none that was satisfactory to him. Here is another example of consistency issues with cast bullets..........This is the same bullet, same load, cast by the shooter.....????? I suppose its possible these were cast at different times? I don't know?

An Example of a more modern bullet the Barnes Buster. I don't know if Barnes is still putting this bullet out or not? I have not paid attention. But tested this some years ago. Here you see no distortion, and the problem with this bullet is that the Meplat is Too Small. I would have to look it up in the records, but I believe the meplat was around 55% of caliber, and if you have followed or remember the magic Meplat size for Self Stability during terminals is 65% of Caliber. A less than desirable meplat size, combined with slower twist rates of these rifles, make for instability during terminals. At 48 yard impact velocities, the higher velocity was a factor in deeper straight line penetration, even though twist rates were slow, and meplat size less than desirable.

When we talk about Penetration of Solids, our Primary Concerns are two things, Dead Straight Penetration and of course Depth of penetration........

Here is a properly designed Lever Gun Solid. It has a short nose projection, which is a Detrimental Factor in Depth of Penetration, but a necessary evil to work through the action of common lever guns. It has a 67% meplat of Caliber, assuring Straight line penetration. Another factor is Material and Construction of the solid, this one is Brass, it is tougher and harder than Cast Lead, and even copper when striking hard surfaces. While it can distort at high velocity, and or hitting heavy bone, it will not distort as readily as other materials. Material and Construction is a factor. Meplat Size wins over slow twist rates as well..........

Tested these in my friends Double Rifle, and then again the same day in the Marlins...........

I would without doubt choose these bullets over any other bullet for 45/70 with the considerations of your question #1.............

 

[michael458]

2. The 370 Lever Safari Raptor for 45-70, 458 Winchester, and 458 Lott to replace the 45-70 hard cast, and the 458 Winchester / Lott bullets from 400 through 450 grain expanding bullets.

I believe that each of these questions, require a separate post, to keep things simple as possible, and be able to give you a proper answer.....

First before going further I want to convey something, as I have seen both ends...... We are truly blessed as shooters, with the vast variety of bullets we have to choose from today, as opposed to 20 years ago. It is possible now, to do things with lesser cartridges, than could ever be done before.

Question; 370 Lever Raptor as a replacement for Cast in 45/70 and expanding in 458 Winchester and 458 Lott?

I have put some thought into this myself, both in 45/70 and other larger capacity cartridges, such as my own 458 B&Ms.........

A few years ago, I have a hunter/shooter friend in CA, a really good fellow. I was helping him get his 458 B&M ready for Africa and get some loads for him. The big issue was his rifle would not meet POI specs for 250 Socoms and the heavier 450/420s........ Everything was on the menu for this hunt, from plains game to elephant and buffalo. Primary bullet since Elephant might be on the menu is the 450 Solids. But this left a gap between plains game and buffalo bullet? He sent his rifle to me to sort out. What I ended up doing was loading the 370 Lever Raptors, seating deep, adding Talon Tip (this Talon Tip buys you 125-150 fps velocity at 50 yard Impacts--Significant with these bullets). The problem with seating a Lever Raptor deep for a bolt gun is that it takes up an enormous amount of case capacity. The 370 Lever Raptor at bolt gun velocity is more than enough for buffalo, it would hammer them I am positive, and have plenty of penetration left over, I am sure broadsides would exit easy. At the higher velocity this would flatten things somewhat for longer ranges that might be encountered for plains game. While not as good in my opinion as the 250 Socom, it would be a good all around bullet for plains game and could even take it to buffalo without concerns.

As it happened, there was some illness shortly after this and his trip was canceled and unfortunately he took a turn and has not been able to return to Africa since. So he did not get to test this out for me....... Although I am 100% sure of the validity .

Considering our previous conversation/Post, about the 325 Lever Solids, I think for Alaska work, and matching POI concerns, and increased Trauma, and not that much difference in penetration, take a look at the Matching 295 gr Lever Raptor, especially in 45/70, same bullet as the 325 Lever Solid, just a Raptor......I believe it would give better overall performance, with its increased velocity and considering Alaska game animals...... This would be a perfect match with the 325 Lever Solid.

And, I would consider the exact same bullet for the larger capacity 458s as well....... seated deep, add Talon Tip........ Now, it might not match up well with the heavier 400s-450s however with POI concerns....... But it might very well match up with the 325 SS Solids, those have longer Nose Projections, and I believe that you actually showed a photo of the SS solid, not the Lever Solid when quoting the 325 Lever Solid, check that.....

In 458 caliber, you would be better served overall with the lighter bullets, you will not come short on penetration with the scenarios that would be presented.

Now if we move these to Africa, then I would go the heavier bullets when buffalo are considered... But not required in Alaska........

 

[michael458]

3. The 400 Lever solids to play around in all three cartridges.

I think with all the considerations I would spend my money on the 325s....... And in the bolt guns, I would look very hard at the Longer Nose projection of the 325 SS Solids......

 

[ldmay375]

Michael458,
Thanks very much for your input. I actually just saw your replies.
I may try the CEB’s in the future, and follow your advice for Alaska use.
My intentions for shooting animals with the 45-70 / 458 Winchester/ 458 Lott is pretty much maximum 100 yard / meter distances.

I went a different route, I located some North Fork 350 grain Cup Point solids for the three .458’s.
I was wanting to try the 400 grain Cup Point for the Winchester and Lott. But they were not in stock.

I reviewed your penetration tests on the 350 grain in the 45-70, 458 B&M, and Lott. Seems plenty good for what animals we have here in Alaska. So, I hit the buy button.

It will be awhile, as in months before I am able to test fire. Shoulder issue. But hope to locate a load for starting point for all three cartridges. If this bullet shoots to satisfaction, it simplifies 458 logistics. Though I also have some of the 380 grain flat point solid Lehigh bullets to also try.

I like the expanding Cup Point idea.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Adequate

View attachment 426533

Yeah barely. Open sights at 100 yards? LOL

 

[CoElkHunter]

@michael458 ,do you think Bob Nelson would try a .243 Winchester loaded with these Raptors?

Maybe, if the rifle had a 16” barrel?

 

[Challer]

Dave,

In the past CEB has been good about providing load data. Just send them an email for what you're looking for and they'll get back to you with at least some decent starting points.

I’d hope they’d publish a load book

 

[michael458]

I went a different route, I located some North Fork 350 grain Cup Point solids for the three .458’s.

I like the expanding Cup Point idea.

OMG...... I LOVE that bullet... and the 325. Those two bullets in .458 is what I wanted in .500 caliber for the various .500 caliber B&Ms. I tested the 325 and 350 Expanding Cup Points and literally flipped out over the performance.......... Even Cape Buffalo Performance!!!!!!

When I worked with the 325/350s "Expanding" CPS in .458, I immediately told John, at North Fork, I wanted this tech for the .500s.......... John went to work on two bullets in .500 caliber for me, a 450 gr .500 and a 375 gr .500...... Both were incredible, and have been used in the field for buffalo, even the 375s did an incredible job in Australia on buffalo, big brawny bulls, with my sons 50 B&M Super Short..HAMMERS........ and maintain penetration...........

I have been a little reluctant to mention much about these, because of availability, and even if they will be made the same by the new owners???????? Believe me, I have MY SUPPLY............. LOL....

Later when I developed the 475 B&M, I had John once again work the North Fork Expanding CPS Magic in .474 caliber specifically for those guns, and they too resulted in BIG SUCCESS on buffalo too. these were 350 and 425 gr weights....... Just incredible performance.................But I don't like the 475 B&M much, so it really is dropped from the lineup........ the Super Short version is very good however.....

Keep in mind, anything in the test medium over 18 inches is into Buffalo Territory for penetration.....

This big bull taken by my son Matthew, his 50 SS and 375 gr North Fork Expanding CPS.....

This bull was taken with the 475 B&M and 425 North Fork Expanding CPS............Which exited far shoulder.........