Cutting Edge Bullets

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Those of you with experience with cutting edge bullets how did you find accuracy?

Thanks.

 

[Royal27]

Adequate

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Those of you with experience with cutting edge bullets how did you find accuracy?

Thanks.

I've used the 260gr SOCOM and 420gr Non-Cons in my .458B&M with superb accuracy. I've only briefly tried in one my .30 cals and didn't get great results. However, I believe that was due to using to heavy a bullet. In general you need to go a bit lighter for caliber with these longer bullets to get them to stabilize.

@michael458 has much more info for loading them in the medium/small bores and hopefully will chime in on this thread.

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Adequate

View attachment 426533

Maybe on a windy day.

 

[Royal27]

Maybe on a windy day.

In all seriousness, I have found the Raptor to be extremely accurate in my .375. And with the 235 grain at just over 2900 fps there isnt amything short of buffalo that I wouldn't hunt with them. The bullet itself is devastating.

I've been extremely impressed with them.

 

[michael458]

@michael458 has much more info for loading them in the medium/small bores and hopefully will chime in on this thread.

Well, my experience depends much on the cartridge/caliber...... I have a load with 50 Raptors that is superb in all my 223 guns, from 10 inch guns to 22 inch guns....... I pretty much exclusively use the 100 Raptor in all my .308 caliber requirements from 300 BLK to 300 Winchester, including 7.62X40, 308 Winchester, and even good ole 30/30....... Doing some .338 caliber, and .358 caliber stuff, but not a lot really.......then its on to 9.3 caliber and I use the 200 FB Raptors, and then we leave there and go to 416+++...........

I think one issue is that a lot of folks can't get away from conventional thinking.... Believing they need heavy bullets to complete the mission........ With these type bullets, you don't need heavy...... Many go too heavy, and then the twist rates are too slow, causing issues..... For example lets think 338 caliber. Normal conventional weights are 225-250s.......... with Raptor type bullets, 175 is more than enough, and will out perform the 250s....... even premium 250s........ In .308 caliber it takes a 200 Swift A Frame to equal penetration of the 100 FB Raptor! But that same 200 Swift cannot equal the trauma inflicted by the 100............. In the 300 Winchester for heavy work, elk/moose if one chooses, then I recommend they use the 130 FB Raptor, you don't need anymore than that....... not for terminals.....

Most of my experience is with the brass Raptors, and some with Copper Raptors. Not much with the various other types of CEB copper bullets...... Accuracy, all in a hole for me.....Of course I don't do any long range shooting........ 50 yards is LONG for me.........LOL..........

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well, my experience depends much on the cartridge/caliber...... I have a load with 50 Raptors that is superb in all my 223 guns, from 10 inch guns to 22 inch guns....... I pretty much exclusively use the 100 Raptor in all my .308 caliber requirements from 300 BLK to 300 Winchester, including 7.62X40, 308 Winchester, and even good ole 30/30....... Doing some .338 caliber, and .358 caliber stuff, but not a lot really.......then its on to 9.3 caliber and I use the 200 FB Raptors, and then we leave there and go to 416+++...........

I think one issue is that a lot of folks can't get away from conventional thinking.... Believing they need heavy bullets to complete the mission........ With these type bullets, you don't need heavy...... Many go too heavy, and then the twist rates are too slow, causing issues..... For example lets think 338 caliber. Normal conventional weights are 225-250s.......... with Raptor type bullets, 175 is more than enough, and will out perform the 250s....... even premium 250s........ In .308 caliber it takes a 200 Swift A Frame to equal penetration of the 100 FB Raptor! But that same 200 Swift cannot equal the trauma inflicted by the 100............. In the 300 Winchester for heavy work, elk/moose if one chooses, then I recommend they use the 130 FB Raptor, you don't need anymore than that....... not for terminals.....

Most of my experience is with the brass Raptors, and some with Copper Raptors. Not much with the various other types of CEB copper bullets...... Accuracy, all in a hole for me.....Of course I don't do any long range shooting........ 50 yards is LONG for me.........LOL..........

When going that light with respect to caliber, I then presume you'd want powders on the fast burning side?

 

[michael458]

When going that light with respect to caliber, I then presume you'd want powders on the fast burning side?

In in a few cases that would be correct....... The load I use in the 308 Winchester is RL 7. Which I would consider a bit fast for 308.............. 300 Winchester I run IMR 4064 with 100 and 130s.

Definitely 100% correct in larger bores even more so...... Most all the big bores respond well to H-4198 and RL 7, regardless of the cartridge or capacity...... 416+.....

In the mediums, 338s and 358s I have been running standard powders such as IMR 4350, both in the bigger Ultra cases..... I have a 358 Ultra running 150 Raptors at 3800 fps with a big dose of IMR 4350.

 

[Royal27]

I do really want to try CEB in .223 on pigs. I just haven't had time yet....

For buffalo I did decide to go with A-Frames over the Raptor simply because I think they will perform better if i need to take a shot through brush. Am I right? dunno.... but decided to play it safe. Again, when I have time, I will load up the Lott with CEBs as well (lighter as @michael458 suggests). Thos bullets are on the bench.

 

[michael458]

For buffalo I did decide to go with A-Frames over the Raptor simply because I think they will perform better if i need to take a shot through brush. Am I right?

Raptors HATE BRUSH....... That is a fact...... Not many soft/expanding, trauma inflicting bullets do well in brush, but Raptors despise brush...... A Frame any better? Maybe........

I will tell you what really is a true brush buster, and that is the #13 Solids..... I have never seen anything go through brush, trees, sticks, limbs other obstacles, and get where you intend like a CEB Solid.... Nothing........I have shot through trees big as 10-12 inches, twigs, 2-4 inch trees, you name it, and it goes through like a laser to target.......If I knew I had to shoot through sticks, trees, brush, twigs or anything else...... CEB Solids....... End of story............

I will load up the Lott with CEBs as well

450s...... anything else is waste, you just don't need more, in fact, the 450 #13s will give you more..... When you exit elephant, broadside, probably exit medium elephant end to end, and will end to end Buffalo and exit, all dead straight, what more do you want?

Use the 50 Raptor in your 223............. There is nothing that can equal that bullet in 223............

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Well, my experience depends much on the cartridge/caliber...... I have a load with 50 Raptors that is superb in all my 223 guns, from 10 inch guns to 22 inch guns....... I pretty much exclusively use the 100 Raptor in all my .308 caliber requirements from 300 BLK to 300 Winchester, including 7.62X40, 308 Winchester, and even good ole 30/30....... Doing some .338 caliber, and .358 caliber stuff, but not a lot really.......then its on to 9.3 caliber and I use the 200 FB Raptors, and then we leave there and go to 416+++...........

I think one issue is that a lot of folks can't get away from conventional thinking.... Believing they need heavy bullets to complete the mission........ With these type bullets, you don't need heavy...... Many go too heavy, and then the twist rates are too slow, causing issues..... For example lets think 338 caliber. Normal conventional weights are 225-250s.......... with Raptor type bullets, 175 is more than enough, and will out perform the 250s....... even premium 250s........ In .308 caliber it takes a 200 Swift A Frame to equal penetration of the 100 FB Raptor! But that same 200 Swift cannot equal the trauma inflicted by the 100............. In the 300 Winchester for heavy work, elk/moose if one chooses, then I recommend they use the 130 FB Raptor, you don't need anymore than that....... not for terminals.....

Most of my experience is with the brass Raptors, and some with Copper Raptors. Not much with the various other types of CEB copper bullets...... Accuracy, all in a hole for me.....Of course I don't do any long range shooting........ 50 yards is LONG for me.........LOL..........

Do you get similar velocity from the cutting edge bullets. A 100 gr out of a 300 Win. Would be screaming. A 130 would probably be in the neighborhood of 34-3500?

 

[michael458]

Do you get similar velocity from the cutting edge bullets. A 100 gr out of a 300 Win. Would be screaming. A 130 would probably be in the neighborhood of 34-3500?

Jamie, my 300 Winchester test rifle is a 26 inch Remington I have had for 25+ years....... Running 72/IMR 4064 with the 100 FB Raptor I get 3898 fps at 59000 PSI...


THe 130 FB Raptor running 67.5/IMR 4064 runs 3488 fps at 59800 PSI......... You were dead on the money with it.......

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Jamie, my 300 Winchester test rifle is a 26 inch Remington I have had for 25+ years....... Running 72/IMR 4064 with the 100 FB Raptor I get 3898 fps at 59000 PSI...


THe 130 FB Raptor running 67.5/IMR 4064 runs 3488 fps at 59800 PSI......... You were dead on the money with it.......

Shooting a deer with that 100 grainer is like shooting a fox with a 17 rem. It has to have spectacular results. I am going to have to try that. Thanks.

 

[Aaron N]

Jamie, my 300 Winchester test rifle is a 26 inch Remington I have had for 25+ years....... Running 72/IMR 4064 with the 100 FB Raptor I get 3898 fps at 59000 PSI...


THe 130 FB Raptor running 67.5/IMR 4064 runs 3488 fps at 59800 PSI......... You were dead on the money with it.......

What kind of meat damage do those velocities produce?

(This is an actual question, not a sarcastic one!)

 

[michael458]

What kind of meat damage do those velocities produce?

(This is an actual question, not a sarcastic one!)

I really do not know, first I don't hunt deer, and second none of my locals hunt with 300 Winchester, I have been wanting someone to give those a go for several years........

In the other 308 calibers, many of my local guys have 308 Winchesters, using this bullet over the last several years, exclusively I might add, because once they use it they don't want anything else. Guessing at least 150-200 deer taken and all DRT. No dragging through the woods following blood trails. We have several kids in the local area using 300 BLK and 7.62X40 with the 100 Raptors, and it really is amazing. One of the kids in NC took a 300 lb black bear, 300 BLK, and 100 Raptors, bear DRT on the spot. This is such a good thing for the kids.

Raptors all behave exactly the same, does not matter if its .620 caliber 825 gr or 224 caliber 50 grain.... behavior is the same, with differences in caliber of course......

At 1.5 inches inside any aqueous medium, animal tissue included, 6 blades shear all at the same time. This is a very explosive moment, an most of the time occurs just inside the hide and rib cage. This causes a major upset in tissue at that point. Blades travel with the center bullet for 2-5 inches, depending on caliber, with larger caliber blades moving further away from center as penetration continues and smaller caliber blades staying somewhat closer to center because of their size. During the time that the blades have sheared, and are still remaining close to center bullet, as tissue expands from forces of the bullet, this tissue is being shredded by the blades, ripped to pieces, as the bullet passes that point, this tissue is totally destroyed and does not come back together as it does with conventional bullets. Once larger blades start moving away from center bullet, they slice and dice organ tissue, vessels, and anything else that gets in their way. This is why one sees so much blood loss with these bullets. Larger blades become secondary projectiles on their own. If you notice I refer to these as "Blades" and not "petals"...... Petals peel back, and sometimes break off, these remain in the center wound channel. "Blades' slice and dice their way through tissue, I have seen larger bore blades actually exit 200 lb animals far side, 10-12 inches away from the center bullet that has exited.... Wicked. Normally most blades stay within the chest cavity, and the center bullet exits.

If one does not open the animal up themselves, and they just look at it from the outside, I have had guys say this bullet just "Pencilled" through. Caliber Hole in, Caliber Hole Out. That is normal, but once you peel that hide back, and open up the goo factory inside, you see a different story....... I have seen heart shot animals opened up, only to find... No Heart! Gone, chewed up in tiny pieces......ANd many other phenomena you cannot begin to believe until you see it. My buddy and I used to have a saying, that every single hunter states in the field on his first Raptor Autopsy, and this is what they say, to a man........... "I have Never Seen Anything Like That".............. Its a standing joke with us over the years.........

These things are the most wicked trauma inflicting bullets I have ever witnessed and I have used them all nearly...... But, keep in mind this as well, they do not like brush, hit a stick, twig or tree and they are done. Do not shoot through brush with Raptors. They do not behave well with brush. That is about the only down side I have witnessed. On the flip side of that, as bad as the Raptors are in brush, the #13 Solids go the other direction, you can shoot through damn near anything and get to target with the Solids...........

In the early test work with these, we were trying to understand just how this worked. I would laminate a test card, we called them Witness Cards. These were inserted 4 inches inside the test medium and every two inches there after....... This way, we could track the blades and what they did, and have a permanent record of it later. If you look at this card you will see the center bullet, and surrounding that the blades as they are represented at 4 inches inside the test medium.

And this is what those blades look like recovered......

This also happens exactly the same in animal tissue, I forgot who sent this to me, and even what animal it was, but you can clearly see the Star Shape pattern of destruction in this organ tissue.....

Early test work with a 210 Raptor in 9.3 B&M......

And the lungs of something, I forget exactly what, shot with the same 210 gr 9.3.........

This is eland internals after taking a 350 gr ESP Raptor .500 caliber at 2800 fps............

I suppose that is enough gore and should give you some idea of how Raptors work..............
Always take a look inside if it is your first rodeo with the Raptors..... you will want to understand.

 

[Jörg Krüger]

@michael458 ,do you think Bob Nelson would try a .243 Winchester loaded with these Raptors?

 

[michael458]

@michael458 ,do you think Bob Nelson would try a .243 Winchester loaded with these Raptors?

Well, I don' t know. First, I don't know Bob and have had little or no interaction with Bob personally. From what I gather Bob seems to be a 35 Whelen fan, and I like .358 caliber guns myself, so reckon he can't be all bad. But I can't imagine why anyone would waste time, money and energy on anything that is .243. I mean to take a perfectly good 308 caliber case and turn it into a 243 just don't make sense to me? I would go in the opposite direction to be honest. I suppose they too could be enhanced by good bullet tech, as most cartridges and calibers can be. But personally I am just not much on anything less than .308 caliber. Oh yes, I have a lot of .224s, but they serve a different purpose...............

 

[AZDAVE]

@michael458 Good morning. Could you give me a couple powder recommendations that would be a starting point to work up a load for the 135gr 7mm raptor in a 7 REM MAG.
and the100gr raptor in a 6.5 grendel.

I keep looking at the 50 B7M and might have to give you a call at some point.

 

[CJW]

Well, I don' t know. First, I don't know Bob and have had little or no interaction with Bob personally. From what I gather Bob seems to be a 35 Whelen fan, and I like .358 caliber guns myself, so reckon he can't be all bad. But I can't imagine why anyone would waste time, money and energy on anything that is .243. I mean to take a perfectly good 308 caliber case and turn it into a 243 just don't make sense to me? I would go in the opposite direction to be honest. I suppose they too could be enhanced by good bullet tech, as most cartridges and calibers can be. But personally I am just not much on anything less than .308 caliber. Oh yes, I have a lot of .224s, but they serve a different purpose...............

You sound like two peas in a pod.

 

[michael458]

@michael458 Good morning. Could you give me a couple powder recommendations that would be a starting point to work up a load for the 135gr 7mm raptor in a 7 REM MAG.
and the100gr raptor in a 6.5 grendel.

I wish I could @AZDAVE , but I have never shot or loaded for either of those........... But what I can do with some confidence is that all you guys looking to load Raptors, look up your cartridge in the Barnes manual, get the closest weight possible to the Raptor, and run with that data as long as the data you are looking at is equal to, or heavier than the Raptor you want to load, be responsible hand loaders and start low to check. If for instance the manual only has say a 130 gr bullet, but your bullet is 110 or 120 or something such, go with the heavy bullet data to start with. You will be very safe, as "Weight Equal Pressure"......... working with say 150 gr 7mm Barnes data, for 135 Raptors will give you a start, and you will be very safe....

In addition, the Brass Raptors will give less pressure than copper as well.....

I keep looking at the 50 B7M and might have to give you a call at some point.

Glad to help out any way I can...........

You sound like two peas in a pod.

Well, this Bob fellow sounds like he is pretty damn sharp I reckon...... HEH HEH...........