CRF vs Push feed

[Ontario Hunter]

Probably...
It's also a good reminder to all of us to think before talking or typing. Of course never drink and type!

This is not 1985 when one had to search reference books to verify our opinions are indeed facts.
There's this application called Google that puts information at our fingertips!

Right. Some twenty year-old kid with a camera on his computer and a blog site is the ultimate source of factual information.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Probably...
It's also a good reminder to all of us to think before talking or typing. Of course never drink and type!

This is not 1985 when one had to search reference books to verify our opinions are indeed facts.
There's this application called Google that puts information at our fingertips!

Something my Bn co said about horses and water……..

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Right. Some twenty year-old kid with a camera on his computer and a blog site is the ultimate source of factual information.

I think that most of us at 20 years old would have been more accurate than you are, time after time.

 

[IvW]

 

[John Wasmuth]

It’s much self explanatory as to how it functions and doesn’t require a rocket scientist to figure it out……

 

[CoElkHunter]

As far as WW2 rifles, I'll take a PF Garand. I could even shoot it upside down. LOL

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

As far as WW2 rifles, I'll take a PF Garand. I could even shoot it upside down. LOL

Push Feed a M1 Garand may be, but it's extractor is almost a third of the circumference of the case head!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It’s much self explanatory as to how it functions and doesn’t require a rocket scientist to figure it out……

As I said, if a thumb cutout on the left side of receiver was necessary for loading stripper clips, Springfield and Enfield would have them. But they don't. There's no reason why Mauser stripper clips can't be loaded without the cutout. GIs did it with Springfields and Enfields. Maybe Mauser had another more vital reason for chopping that much metal from the side of the receiver. Obviously, loading an extra shell on top of a full magazine or loading a cartridge push feed with an empty gun is much easier with the thumb cutout on the left side.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Push Feed a M1 Garand may be, but it's extractor is almost a third of the circumference of the case head!

View attachment 592561

That looks like it has a massive plunger ejector too! Why didn't Winchester (post '63), Remington and other PF rifle manufacturers adopt this design many years later? The cost couldn't have been much more than the substandard extractors and ejectors they ultimately incorporated into their bolt designs. I mean, look at the thicker steel on that bolt when compared with many modern designs. It's a real shame.

 

[John Wasmuth]

As I said, if a thumb cutout on the left side of receiver was necessary for loading stripper clips, Springfield and Enfield would have them. But they don't. There's no reason why Mauser stripper clips can't be loaded without the cutout. GIs did it with Springfields and Enfields. Maybe Mauser had another more vital reason for chopping that much metal from the side of the receiver. Obviously, loading an extra shell on top of a full magazine or loading a cartridge push feed with an empty gun is much easier with the thumb cutout on the left side.

Yer in Maggie’s drawers…… and you are beating a dead horse, you are proven wrong and should honestly move on…….

 

[black tail]

I prefer CRF because that is what I grew up with. Many gun writers hinted that the only CRF was super reliable and suitable for a Dangerous Game Rifle.

I think that is hogwash, even though my Mod. 70's are CRF rifles. I have used both push feed and CRF with out issue. If a man knows his rifle and it is of good design then both work well.

Harry Selby is about as famous as an African Pro Hunter can be. After his famous Mauser .416 Rigby was run over by a helper it was sent in for a new barrel. He used a push feed Mod. 70 .458 Win. Mag. and liked it so much he kept using it after the .416 was repaired. He evidently had complete confidence in it.

 

[IvW]

Where do you get this "hogwash" you post here????

His Rigby 470 double rifle was driven over and he aquared a Rigby 416 right hand(Harry was left handed) built on a standard length mauser action....
He briefly used a 458 while his 416 Rigby was rebarreled due to over use....make unknown.....

From the horses mouth....

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Harry Selby's Rifles

Selby, a keen enthusiast of rifles and ballistics, formed opinions based on his experiences.

www.americanrifleman.org

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Where do you get this "hogwash" you post here????

His Rigby 470 double rifle was driven over and he aquared a Rigby 416 right hand(Harry was left handed) built on a standard length mauser action....
He briefly used a 458 while his 416 Rigby was rebarreled due to over use....make unknown.....

From the horses mouth....

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Harry Selby's Rifles

Selby, a keen enthusiast of rifles and ballistics, formed opinions based on his experiences.

www.americanrifleman.org

Correct. The substitute 458 magnum was a Winchester caliber and it seems likely the rifle was as well. The above interview took place in 2009 when Selby was age 84. By then he had been retired for some time. Don't know for sure when Selby's 416 was sent off for a new barrel, but the information supplied seems to point to the substitute rifle likely being a CRF pre-64 Model 70. 458 Win mag was born in 1956.

 

[IvW]

F...me the man is capable of agreement.....

 

[KIH]

Sorry, havent read the posts, but will give my thoutghts on things that is often forgotten in these discussions.

Push feed is safer in case of the most dangerous ammo related accidents, rupture of the case bottom. Every time the gases have to turn 90 degrees it bleeds of energy. On a Remington first 90 degree bend is from the bolt face, then from the end of barrel and outward, and then from outward towards shooter. The extractor on Remington is weak, so additions of M16/sako type might weakens this safety feature.

On Mauser style rifles the extractor is modified so the extractor claw can climb over to the extractor rim on the case when the bolt is pushed forward. Construction aint made for this feature = weakening the extractor claw both in construktion and wear and tear when used. The solution is to press the extra round on topp of the full magazine som mutch down that the extractor claw clears the case rim when bolt is forced forward. It is cumbersome to do, thats why extractor claw is weakened by runding it of.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Sorry, havent read the posts, but will give my thoutghts on things that is often forgotten in these discussions.

Push feed is safer in case of the most dangerous ammo related accidents, rupture of the case bottom. Every time the gases have to turn 90 degrees it bleeds of energy. On a Remington first 90 degree bend is from the bolt face, then from the end of barrel and outward, and then from outward towards shooter. The extractor on Remington is weak, so additions of M16/sako type might weakens this safety feature.

On Mauser style rifles the extractor is modified so the extractor claw can climb over to the extractor rim on the case when the bolt is pushed forward. Construction aint made for this feature = weakening the extractor claw both in construktion and wear and tear when used. The solution is to press the extra round on topp of the full magazine som mutch down that the extractor claw clears the case rim when bolt is forced forward. It is cumbersome to do, thats why extractor claw is weakened by runding it of.

The reason for modifying the extractor to snap over is so shell can be quickly dropped in the chamber and bolt closed on an empty magazine: a potentially lifesaving feature when being charged by a buffalo or elephant.

A lot of discussion has been devoted to whether or not Mauser extractors were originally designed to do this. According to Duane Wiebe's book, only the later models are designed without snap over feature. Looking at the design of bolt and extractor of my Czech 98 Mauser, I can see a unique feature that does accommodate snap over. Remove the bolt, holding it with thumb over the extractor spring. Note that with thumb you can slide the extractor forward and back ever so slightly. See how the keeper behind the claw does not fit snuggly in the guide groove on the bolt. There's a reason for that. If you remove the extractor, you'll see the keeper has a ridge on its front edge. Also note that the guide groove in the bolt has a lip inside. When the bolt is drawn back, the extractor slides forward and the keeper ridge is locked into the guide groove lip. That's so the claw cannot pop off the rim of case being extracted. Once the bolt is opened and started reward, the claw slides forward and is locked on the cartridge rim. But when the bolt is pushed forward, the extractor slides back and the keeper ridge is released from the guide groove. This allows the unlocked extractor to jump out slightly and snap over a cartridge rim when the bolt is moving forward. Of course, this can all be explained as a necessary design for removing and installing the extractor. What is not explained, however, is the added tolerance machined into the extractor guide groove in the receiver that allows the extractor to jump out and snap over a cartridge rim. If the bolt groove was only designed for installation and locking the extractor, there would be no need for the added tolerance in the receiver slot.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

CRF is my preference but I also love Blaser and Steyr rifles which are both push feed and never had an issue with either

 

[IvW]

The reason for modifying the extractor to snap over is so shell can be quickly dropped in the chamber and bolt closed on an empty magazine: a potentially lifesaving feature when being charged by a buffalo or elephant.

A lot of discussion has been devoted to whether or not Mauser extractors were originally designed to do this. According to Duane Wiebe's book, only the later models are designed without snap over feature. Looking at the design of bolt and extractor of my Czech 98 Mauser, I can see a unique feature that does accommodate snap over. Remove the bolt, holding it with thumb over the extractor spring. Note that with thumb you can slide the extractor forward and back ever so slightly. See how the keeper behind the claw does not fit snuggly in the guide groove on the bolt. There's a reason for that. If you remove the extractor, you'll see the keeper has a ridge on its front edge. Also note that the guide groove in the bolt has a lip inside. When the bolt is drawn back, the extractor slides forward and the keeper ridge is locked into the guide groove lip. That's so the claw cannot pop off the rim of case being extracted. Once the bolt is opened and started reward, the claw slides forward and is locked on the cartridge rim. But when the bolt is pushed forward, the extractor slides back and the keeper ridge is released from the guide groove. This allows the unlocked extractor to jump out slightly and snap over a cartridge rim when the bolt is moving forward. Of course, this can all be explained as a necessary design for removing and installing the extractor. What is not explained, however, is the added tolerance machined into the extractor guide groove in the receiver that allows the extractor to jump out and snap over a cartridge rim. If the bolt groove was only designed for installation and locking the extractor, there would be no need for the added tolerance in the receiver slot.

I cannot agree with this if you cannot sort it out with 4 5 or 6 rounds with a PH backing you up your time is up.....or you should not be hunting DG.....

 

[IvW]

Sorry, havent read the posts, but will give my thoutghts on things that is often forgotten in these discussions.

Push feed is safer in case of the most dangerous ammo related accidents, rupture of the case bottom. Every time the gases have to turn 90 degrees it bleeds of energy. On a Remington first 90 degree bend is from the bolt face, then from the end of barrel and outward, and then from outward towards shooter. The extractor on Remington is weak, so additions of M16/sako type might weakens this safety feature.

On Mauser style rifles the extractor is modified so the extractor claw can climb over to the extractor rim on the case when the bolt is pushed forward. Construction aint made for this feature = weakening the extractor claw both in construktion and wear and tear when used. The solution is to press the extra round on topp of the full magazine som mutch down that the extractor claw clears the case rim when bolt is forced forward. It is cumbersome to do, thats why extractor claw is weakened by runding it of.

BS.....

 

[Aaron N]

Perhaps. But I cannot see how it would work very well. I'd like to see a Manual of Arms that directs right-handed soldiers using right-hand bolt rifles to load with the left hand. It just doesn't make sense. But then I spent enough time in the Army to know making sense is not always a top priority in the military. I figured that out early on in basic training when they handed me an M16. "We're supposed to kill people with this gopher gun?"

Paul Mauser had more knowledge about how to build a functioning rifle in his final turd than you do. Do yourself a favour and be quiet for once.