Crf Rifles Encountered While Hunting?

[fourfive8]

Great discussion. Didn’t read all the replies. My observations are from 25 years in CO and nearly another 25 in Alaska (damn I’m getting old).

A lot of what we see out West today is driven by the notion that game animals are only taken at extreme ranges and one needs a precision rifle with Hubble telescope mounted atop. Stalking is for bow hunting. Most of these actions are of the push feed variety as they are easier to manufacture to tight tolerances for the major and boutique manufacturers. Little thought is put into reliability in extreme environmental conditions encountered in many other places. 9 out of 10 of those things won’t work in the dust or wet freezing weather. Most of these rifles see 10 rounds a year and the average shot is still 150 yards or less. Dads and Grandads Winchester 94 or 70 got traded off in order to finance their “builds”.

In my small corner of Alaska I have seen a lot of everything. Seems like everyone owns a Mini-14. The Winchester Model 70 is the state firearm. I also see a lot of Ruger M77 or Hawkeye. There are either stainless, or rusty. Not many in between. One Sitka based bear guide packed a rusty post-64 push-feed model 70 in .458.

Agreed, kind of what I've seen also including AK. The ultra long range game has changed many of the current trends. Other than being widely available and relatively inexpensive, never could figure out the popularity of the Mini 14? Lots of rounds down range with questionable accuracy, available in stainless, fairly reliably functioning platform counts for something I guess. Who knows...

As to question of the percentage of CRFs vs PFs in Africa? Hard to say but from what I've seen would think the CRFs outnumber the PFs. However if you consider a double rifle closer to a CRF design for chambering and a PF design for extraction, it muddies the water a little.

 

[Bullthrower338]

As a boy in Montana, Model 70’s were abundant as were Ruger 77’s and rifles built in 98 actions with 30-06, 7mm RM and 338 WM being the most prevalent. I was a gun nut from birth so I always made a point of striking up gun conversations with anyone that was willing to participate. Most of the guys I met that came from out of state to hunt brought with them Model 700’s and Weatherby rifles. One gentleman that used to come hunt with Dad always brought a Mark V in 300 Wby and I was elated every time he let me get my dirty little mitts on it. I was so obsessed with that gun I bucked bales in the alfalfa fields and mowed lawns for two years to buy one for myself. It was in fact the largest POS that I have ever owned and I have acquired some turds in my lifetime. I finally got rid of it after its 3rd trip back to the factory and mainly shot 700’s for years, not owning a CRF until well into my 30’s.
I still see a lot of M70’s up there but they are far out numbered by push feed rifles these days. I still hunt with a stainless 700 most of the time up there, I have yet to run into a charging griz that will require I must cycle my rifle while standing on my head while wearing wool mittens so I’m still alive. Haven’t much worried about excessive chamber pressure due to the November sun that beats down either so the 700 is a good rifle for that hunt. Hell, even had one work in Africa a time or two! I love both and haven’t had either type leave me wishing for the other. Proper maintenance will trump design when you need a rifle to do it’s job.

 

[crs]

My quick read-over suggests that the author and most responders are primarily interested in bolt action rifles.

Up until recent years, this issue never arose in print that I read. It never came up in hunting camps or outdoor club meetings either. Though I have used CRF action rifles for 40+ years, no one ever asked about it or commented on it except recently on forums such as this. CRF had nothing to do with my rifle choice for African PG and DG hunts; BUT,,, wait for it,,,,, cartridge always did!

PS no guide or PH has ever taken exception to any of my rifles either, but I must confess, one PH really took a liking to my Early model 77 Ruger .338 Win Mag - or maybe it was just the cartridge?

 

[sierraone]

Yes, good point. However I also spent 9 years in Wyoming. Pre ‘64 Model ‘70’s were definitely represented although not in the numbers of Remington 700’s. I can recall two in .264 Win Mag that were used to the point of almost being in the ‘white’. What I find interesting is the almost complete lack of mausers I’ve come across. To read the old writers, O’Connor, Carmichael, etc., you’d think every other rifle you’d come across would be a Mauser or a Model 70.

@Velo Dog of Anchorage is a firm believer in Mausers. He has been there more than 30 years. He will praise them if you give him a chance! I have a FN M 70 in .264 Win Mag I bought in 2013 just after they came out. Has been shot probably 250-300 times but never hunted. It has all of the upgraded blue and wood. Beautiful rifle. And as you say...a tack driver with Nosler 130 grain ammo!

 

[Deleted member 53080]

The 700 design is not just popular because it’s cheap. It has an incredibly fast lock time, stiff action and beds very well. This makes it an excellent precision rifle platform. This is why so many custom precision rifles are 700 variants. If you want a rig that will put 5 shots in one hole at 200 every time or ring steel at 2400 you’re likely going with one.

I don’t know if you were referencing my post above yours but I wanted to say that I agree with you concerning the use of R700s (or any of the many high quality copies of the R700 action) as a precision rifle platform.

However I was not referring to precision rifles, I was talking about hunting rifles in my experience and in my experience the vast majority of American hunters want rifles that are affordable and readily available. Nine times out of ten that rifle is a mass produced (I buy mass produced myself) push feed.

I don’t have a problem with them and I wasn’t knocking them for being cheap. My safe isn’t exactly running over with Rigbys, Mausers or Heyms.

 

[Alistair]

So, if the Tikka would do everything you want with a non DG rifle, why would you go through the hassle for the CRF Winchester? I’m just playing the “devils advocate “ here, because I’ve been contemplating replacing my mid ‘70s Winchester .270 with a Browning X Bolt .270 vs. a CRF actioned .270? I don’t see the advantage of the CRF in this caliber?

I didn't! I bought a CRF Win 70 in .375H&H. It's nominally my running boar / one day DG rifle, hence why I wanted CRF.

All my other rifles are PRF. For any calibre smaller than .375, it wouldn't be a factor at all. I actually quite liked my W70, so I might buy another because I like the platform, but I don't really care if it's PRF or CRF in say .270win, although maybe PRF is slightly less faff in a few marginal situtions.

Priorities for me in a hunting rifle are reliability, accuracy, looks and considering all my rifles are walnut and blue jobs, it seems I'll even sacrifice the first two qualities for 'pretty' and 'classic'.

 

[WAB]

I may be incorrect. Did the Model 720 precede the 725? I believe the 720 was a little "thrown together", then they refined the stock and offered many different options. I believe the 725 had a free floating barrel or made contact just at the tip. Then there was the Model 30 very few "Civilian" models were ever sold to the public. I believe the rest of 2,000+ were divided into two equal lots and were split between the Navy and Marines and all or part became "trophy award rifles". I think all were in 30-06. I have never seen one. I believe they can be identified by crossed cannons stamped on the receiver or barrel?

Where did the 721 fit in there? I once owned a 721 in 300 H&H. Shot one elk with it and sold it.

 

[njc110381]

The thing with UK shooters is we have absolutely nothing which can hurt us. Not really. We have boar and deer stags, but compared to a buff, lion or bear the risk they pose is laughable. Push feed feels smoother, and if it doesn't feed it's no big deal. The ability to cycle in any position just isn't needed.

My latest purchase is a true controlled round feed. It's a Blaser BBF97. The cartridge goes from my fingers into the chamber and then I close it, no fancy bits required!

 

[Wheels]

America has a tradition of the "working man" owning firearms. This tradition is probably more prevalent in America than most countries. Certainly more prevalent than Europe. The M700 filled this market niche for decades as a low cost, dependable, solid rifle that was accurate beyond it's price point.

Your average American deer hunter probably doesn't know the difference between CRF and PF. If you tried to explain it to him he probably wouldn't care. His M700 has served him well since he got it for Christmas when he was 14. His son/brother used the M700 when he was in the military and you don't get a more dangerous game than a person who will shoot back. PF is where it's at for the average American working mans needs.

 

[HuntingGold]

You smacked that on the head!

 

[CoElkHunter]

In our elk, deer and pronghorn camps, we see a lot of Winchester M70s but the push feeds definitely outnumber them. I doubt the majority of US hunters even know the difference. A lot of them buy junk and go hunting.

My first CRF rifle was my Interarms Whitworth .375, which I bought from a local gun shop about two years ago. I tried to explain to my elk hunting buddies the difference between the CRF and their push feed rifles. They looked at me like I was from a different planet! They didn’t really give a flying f*** about the difference and just hunt with their same rifles they’ve hunted with for years. They aren’t into learning something new about firearms I guess? So, here I am discussing this topic and others with you fine gentlemen/ladies here on AH. I appreciate and relish your expertise on things I know little/nothing about but am willing to learn about.

 

[HuntingGold]

Are you happy with the Whitworth?
Are you hunting elk with it? If so, how did it do for you?
At the end of the day, the only opinion that matters about your rifle... is yours.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

My first CRF rifle was my Interarms Whitworth .375, which I bought from a local gun shop about two years ago. I tried to explain to my elk hunting buddies the difference between the CRF and their push feed rifles. They looked at me like I was from a different planet! They didn’t really give a flying f*** about the difference and just hunt with their same rifles they’ve hunted with for years. They aren’t into learning something new about firearms I guess? So, here I am discussing this topic and others with you fine gentlemen/ladies here on AH. I appreciate and relish your expertise on things I know little/nothing about but am willing to learn about.

It’s kind of funny that that “something new” is actually old. It is interesting how quickly firearm innovation has moved in the last few generations.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Are you happy with the Whitworth?
Are you hunting elk with it? If so, how did it do for you?
At the end of the day, the only opinion that matters about your rifle... is yours.

I love the Whitworth. I believe the action may have had some “smoothing “ work done to it cause the previous owner had the bolt and magazine follower jeweled.The action is smooth as silk. I have not hunted elk with it yet. I don’t have a scope on it yet as I’m still deciding what I want. I’m thinking a 2x7? Anyway, I’ve put a couple of boxes 270gr through it and when I can SEE the front bead, I can generally keep most of my shots on a paper plate at 50yds using my sling for support from an offhand position. Not great, but I need more TIME! Anybody have some for sale?

 

[Scott CWO]

Great discussion. Didn’t read all the replies. My observations are from 25 years in CO and nearly another 25 in Alaska (damn I’m getting old).

A lot of what we see out West today is driven by the notion that game animals are only taken at extreme ranges and one needs a precision rifle with Hubble telescope mounted atop. Stalking is for bow hunting. Most of these actions are of the push feed variety as they are easier to manufacture to tight tolerances for the major and boutique manufacturers. Little thought is put into reliability in extreme environmental conditions encountered in many other places. 9 out of 10 of those things won’t work in the dust or wet freezing weather. Most of these rifles see 10 rounds a year and the average shot is still 150 yards or less. Dads and Grandads Winchester 94 or 70 got traded off in order to finance their “builds”.

In my small corner of Alaska I have seen a lot of everything. Seems like everyone owns a Mini-14. The Winchester Model 70 is the state firearm. I also see a lot of Ruger M77 or Hawkeye. There are either stainless, or rusty. Not many in between. One Sitka based bear guide packed a rusty post-64 push-feed model 70 in .458.

Yeah I’ve tried to get Dale to update but he probably won’t. Lol.

 

[MS 9x56]

Due to the prevalence of the many lever actions used in my part of New York state (southern tier) I dare say less than 10% of the rifles I have seen used are CRF. Most of those are model 70's with a smattering of sporterized mausers.

 

[One Day...]

This is mainly a quasi survey for U.S. hunters, but how many CRF actioned rifles have you seen while hunting? In thirty plus years of hunting in Colorado and Wyoming, I've seen one (unless the Ruger M77 counts as semi?) after observing and talking to many, many other hunters. Just interesting.

Why would the Ruger 77 be considered semi CRF?

I own five Ruger rifles, 9.3x62, .300 Win Mag, .375 HH, .404J, and .416 Rigby. I consider all of them CRF, but have been told they are not "true" CRFs. So I don't know why they are not.

Don’t really know, I’ve never owned one, except my M77 in .220 Swift? But, from what some of the M77 experts have said here, is the Ruger RSMs are CRF and the others are not? Don’t know for sure?

Confusing the Mauser external claw extractor with CRF...

The title says it all: many confuse the Mauser external claw extractor with controlled round feeding. This is erroneous.

The only test of CRF is: does the bolt carry the round into the chamber? If the answer is yes, this is a CRF bolt. If this answer is no, this is a PF bolt. The extractor type as nothing to do with CRF. I am tempted to add: period.

For example, here is the bolt of a Steyr Mannlicher Luxus, circa 1970's. As can be plainly seen, the bolt carries the cartridge, but it doe not have a Mauser-type external claw extractor. This is a CRF bolt.

Steyr Mannlicher Luxus, circa 1970's, CRF bolt carrying the cartridge.

The 3 telltale signs of a CRF bolt are:

1. It has a cut-out at the bottom of the bolt head in order to allow the cartridge to slide under the extractor as the cartridge comes out of the magazine;
2. It has an extractor wide enough and tensioned enough to secure and hold the cartridge as it comes out of the magazine, and CARRIES it into the chamber;
3. It does not have a spring-loaded ejector plunger protuberating from the bolt that would prevent the cartridge from sliding under the extractor, and that would prevent the extractor from holding the cartridge.

Steyr Mannlicher Luxus, circa 1970's, CRF bolt showing the 3 characteristics of CRF bolts: bottom cut out, wide tensioned extractor, no spring loaded ejector plunger.

Ruger 77 Mk1 "pretend CRF"...

The first generation of Ruger 77 had a Mauser-type external claw extractor, but they did not have the cut out. As a consequence the bolt did not grab the cartridge from the magazine and did not carry it into the chamber, it pushed it ahead of the claw extractor that jumped the rim of the cartridge when the bolt was closed. This was a "pretend CRF" but actually a PF.

Just like, to this day, the Ruger 3 position safety is a "pretend bolt-mounted, firing pin-blocking safety". It is located on the side, like a Win 70 safety is, and it is made to look like one, but it is not actually mounted on the bolt and it does not actually block the firing pin. It is mounted on the action and blocks the sear, a much less reliable option where a firing pin cocking piece can possibly jump the blocked sear in a hard fall...

Non-Mauser CRF rifles...

A number of well known rifles do not have the Mauser-type external claw extractor but are true CRF: Mannlicher Schoenauer, Steyr Mannlicher Luxus of the 1970's generation, Sako 85, etc.

Sako 85 CRF bolt (left) and Winchester 70 short-lived so-called CRF PF bolt showing the 3 characteristics of CRF bolts: bottom cut out, wide tensioned extractor, no spring loaded ejector plunger.

CRF function has nothing to do with extraction...

The bottom line is that CRF function has nothing to do with extraction. Its purpose is to prevent double feeding and/or pushing inadvertently a cartridge into the chamber that would stay in the chamber when the bolt is retracted without being closed.

I have converted instantly a number of friends from Rem 700 to Win 70 by demonstrating side by side the Rem 700 PF leaving a cartridge in the chamber and the Win 70 CRF pulling it out. This is a safety issue not an extraction issue. This does not mean that these Rem 700 owners rushed to buy a Win 70, but it means they understood instantly and recognized the superiority of CRF from a safety point of view.

The confusion comes from the fact that the Mauser 98 introduced simultaneously the claw extractor (extraction function) and CRF bolt (feeding function) and many folks merged the two concepts into one in their mind, but this is not the case factually...

 

[MS 9x56]

One Day : That was the best explanation of CRF I have ever seen. Bravo sir!

 

[mdwest]

The first generation of Ruger 77 had a Mauser-type external claw extractor, but they did not have the cut out. As a consequence the bolt did not grab the cartridge from the magazine and did not carry it into the chamber, it pushed it ahead of the claw extractor that jumped the rim of the cartridge when the bolt was closed. This was a "pretend CRF" but actually a PF.

This is correct...

Important to note however is the MKII M77 was released in 1991... 30 years ago... and is a CRF system...

The MKI was released in 1968.. it was made for 23 years, but sales were limited compared to the MKII...

The vast majority of Ruger M77’s in existence are CRF..

MK1 M77 had a plunger ejector... it looked more like a REM 700 bolt face than a CRF (I don’t believe it was a “pretend” CRF at all...)...

 

[CoElkHunter]

One Day : That was the best explanation of CRF I have ever seen. Bravo sir!

+1. Very informative. Thank you!