Corbett’s 500 modified cordite rifle

[Red Leg]

You're more experienced than l I concede you are right. But the only reason , l would say the gun was loaded with modified Cordite was because he doesn't just mention the gun as a " Modified Cordite .500 Rifle '' . But he also mentioned the cartridges as " .500 Modified Cordite cartridges .

I’m not sure that we are saying anything different. The Jones underlever guns were very strong, and many were re-proofed for the intermediate nitro load when cordite (nitro) was developed. The load was very little different from a ballistic perspective than the BPE load. Hence, nothing like the later .500 nitro-express rifles. It would have handled a big cat up close, but would not of managed thick-skin game very well. A hunter then would have simply called it a 500 and could have used original BP or the new mild cordite loads.

 

[Pondoro]

IIRC, Kynoch (and Eley..?) sold ammo marked "nitro for black" during the transition period...roughly 1900-1920..perhaps up to the 1930´s..
As Red Leg stated, this was simply smokeless ammo loaded light to duplicate the original blackpowder load ballistics..

I have a book by a norwegian hunter who hunted British East Africa (Kenya) for the first 6 months of 1914. He shared camp with a british officer for a period. The brit hunted with a .577 BPE and repeatedly shot at buffalo and failed to penetrate....he never bagged buff with that rifle.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

IIRC, Kynoch (and Eley..?) sold ammo marked "nitro for black" during the transition period...roughly 1900-1920..perhaps up to the 1930´s..
As Red Leg stated, this was simply smokeless ammo loaded light to duplicate the original blackpowder load ballistics..

I have a book by a norwegian hunter who hunted British East Africa (Kenya) for the first 6 months of 1914. He shared camp with a british officer for a period. The brit hunted with a .577 BPE and repeatedly shot at buffalo and failed to penetrate....he never bagged buff with that rifle.

That's correct. Nitro for Black It was used in Blackpowder guns . They were lightly loading them with Cordite to emulate black powder performances. Performance was sadly... Dismal

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Thanks for the great info guys! Sorry about the late response, had to work late today. I always love to learn more about “carpett sahib”

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I caught a flaw in your list Hoss, the John Rigby .275 was gifted to him for killing the champawat tigress which he killed with the 500. Regardless awesome info man thanks a bunch.
The thing I love about the AH forums is that I’ve never met a Jim Corbett fan in person, but on here we’re as thick as hair on a dog

 

[Brent in Az]

Corbett's 450/400, sold at auction in 2015, for $264,500. Nostalgic rifle, with a history that someone was willing to pay big money for.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I caught a flaw in your list Hoss, the John Rigby .275 was gifted to him for killing the champawat tigress which he killed with the 500. Regardless awesome info man thanks a bunch.
The thing I love about the AH forums is that I’ve never met a Jim Corbett fan in person, but on here we’re as thick as hair on a dog

Oh , no ! I made an error. I really shouldn't speculate
I checked my copy of the Book and it just said .275 , so l foolishly assumed it was the Rigby and not the Westley Richards Ah well , all sorted out now

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’m just kidding with ya. If we met in person I bet we could talk for hours.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I’m just kidding with ya. If we met in person I bet we could talk for hours.

Well , I'll be in Sweden this November for my Annual roe deer hunt. If you have an over under ( or side by side , if that's what you prefer ) shotgun and some nice #1 or AAA shot loads , come over

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Red Leg and l were both right. It was a reworked .500 Black Powder Express which was Loaded with Cordite MD cartridges.

 

[kevin masters]

Well , when l am not working ( Shipping Business ) , l am either :
Hunting
Fishing
Shooting
Collecting knives
Collecting guns
Building my 11.2 × 72 Schuler ZKK-602 project
Collecting Vintage Suspenders
Buying Silk shirts
Buying new suits
Watching films
Reading
Bowling
Playing Billiard
Cooking
Gardening
Spending time with Mrs. Delgado.
Playing with my nephew ( he's like my son )
Eating out
Doing charity work for old War Veterans .
Spending time with my Granddad .
Spending time with my mom and Dad when they're here from Arizona.
Visiting my son at the cemetery every Saturday.
Painting
Play piano
Attending country concerts
Spending time with Friends
And last but not least ...
Posting on AH forums

You are an incredibly diverse person with some really cool interests, Thanks for posting!

 

[CTDolan]

Best forum on the web, period.

Here's a nice little video of Corbett's 450-400.

 

[bruce moulds]

500 modified cordite rifle.
a very interesting topic indeed
if this is a nitro for black, it would make sense, as those cartridges were popular in india for tigers and sambar deer in larger calibres.
this does not include 45 cal generally, as they fired a bullet of 250 to 350 gns at 1500 to 1800 fps, more suited to smaller deer sized game.
the 500s used about a 400 gn bullet as fast as a black powder charge could drive it.
light for calibre with low sectional density bullets were deadly on tiger sized game that had teeth and claws.
not so good in Africa for buff and elephant etc.
nitro for black loads were ballistically similar to black loads, but had less barrel fouling.
bruce.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’m surprised the bullets were that light. Do you know if the were jacketed? He also mentioned the sights being calibrated at sea level which made it shoot high in the mountains. Does that happen with modern propellants or just cordite/black powder? I don’t know as I have only shot at my current altitude.

 

[bruce moulds]

wyatt,
at higher altitude there is less atmospheric pressure, hence less drag on any projectile, whether propelled by smokeless or black.
light bullets and big charges of black powder are what defines a black powder express rifle.
they were meant to shoot flatter than military rifles and thus have a longer point blank range.
that said, their bullets had low b.c. for calibre, and lost energy quickly in flight.
40 cal expresses were said to retain more % of their energy than other calibres.
sir henry halford preferred a 40 cal express for deer.
all of the above said, they had a point blank of around 125 yds, after which you folded up another leaf on the rear sight.
iron hunting sights don't generally suit to shooting accurately past 125 yds anyway.
higher altitude made little difference to this distance.going from sea level to upper rocky mountains can make enough difference in elevation zero to go over the top of an fclass target at 1000 yds with vld bullets.
for really big game in those days you used a gauge (bigger than 12) gun with a conical bullet.
black powder expresses were mostly loaded with lead alloy bullets paper patched, and later some grease grooved.
some nitro for black loads were cupro nickel jacketed and some lead alloy.
the 450 x 3 1/4" black powder express was just about the ants pants for red deer, as was 40 x 2 6/10 to 40 x 3 1/4".
500 and 577 of different case lengths were popular in india for tigers etc. where a bit more stopping power was handy.
interesting that cordite could make the turn the 450 from a deer gun in to a elephant killer by making a heavier stouter bullet go faster.
some of the big 577 etc cases had to be reduced in length when adding cordite and heavier bullets to make them more shootable.
bruce.

 

[bruce moulds]

I have out a link under muzzle loading and black powder section headed express rifles.
it is a link to one of Stonehenge's online books that includes definitions of express rifles from the day, by authorities at the time.
nitro for black had similar ballistics.
some might find this interesting.
bruce.

 

[Red Leg]

wyatt,
at higher altitude there is less atmospheric pressure, hence less drag on any projectile, whether propelled by smokeless or black.
light bullets and big charges of black powder are what defines a black powder express rifle.
they were meant to shoot flatter than military rifles and thus have a longer point blank range.
that said, their bullets had low b.c. for calibre, and lost energy quickly in flight.
40 cal expresses were said to retain more % of their energy than other calibres.
sir henry halford preferred a 40 cal express for deer.
all of the above said, they had a point blank of around 125 yds, after which you folded up another leaf on the rear sight.
iron hunting sights don't generally suit to shooting accurately past 125 yds anyway.
higher altitude made little difference to this distance.going from sea level to upper rocky mountains can make enough difference in elevation zero to go over the top of an fclass target at 1000 yds with vld bullets.
for really big game in those days you used a gauge (bigger than 12) gun with a conical bullet.
black powder expresses were mostly loaded with lead alloy bullets paper patched, and later some grease grooved.
some nitro for black loads were cupro nickel jacketed and some lead alloy.
the 450 x 3 1/4" black powder express was just about the ants pants for red deer, as was 40 x 2 6/10 to 40 x 3 1/4".
500 and 577 of different case lengths were popular in india for tigers etc. where a bit more stopping power was handy.
interesting that cordite could make the turn the 450 from a deer gun in to a elephant killer by making a heavier stouter bullet go faster.
some of the big 577 etc cases had to be reduced in length when adding cordite and heavier bullets to make them more shootable.
bruce.

Great summary Bruce. I suspect Ross Seyfried has done more experimentation to get fourth quarter 19th century firearms to perform than anyone I know. He still writes a great article in the Double Gun Journal every quarter.

There are at least a couple of folks on this site who purchased 500 BPE rifles thinking they had scored a deal on a buffalo stomper. They do make a fine rifle for wild boar if no stag are handy.

It is interesting to me that the British succumbed at all to the light fragile bullet fantasy. The Empire was a vast region for experimentation, and the toughness of much African and Asian game was well understood by that point. Yet, for almost two decades those sorts of rifles, proved for those sorts of bullets, were produced by all the gunmaking houses in the U.K. One can only assume they did work fairly well on stag and boar. But more than one client was bitten or stomped south or east of Cairo.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Thanks Bruce for the great info. As always I am impressed by your knowledge. I wouldn’t have guessed that a 500 express rifle would have been inappropriate for Africa. Maybe that’s why small bores were so popular, like the 303 with 215 full jackets. I remember reading John Henry Patterson used a borrowed 12 bore rifle on lion that failed to stop a charge because he accidentally loaded a steel bullet. I assume they were for elephants and such

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Thanks Bruce for the great info. As always I am impressed by your knowledge. I wouldn’t have guessed that a 500 express rifle would have been inappropriate for Africa. Maybe that’s why small bores were so popular, like the 303 with 215 full jackets. I remember reading John Henry Patterson used a borrowed 12 bore rifle on lion that failed to stop a charge because he accidentally loaded a steel bullet. I assume they were for elephants and such

Oh , you mean Col. Patterson who wrote M"eaters of Tsavo" , yes ?
In his book , he recommended a hunter to bring : A .303 , a .450 NE and a 12 bore shotgun. When he himself was there , he only had a .303 and a 12 bore shotgun. He failed to kill the Lions with the .303 and eventually used a borrowed .577/450 Martini Henry to finish the job. He also made home made ball cartridges for his 12 bore , which leads me to believe that the barrels had no choke

 

[bruce moulds]

the website changed my thread with links to 2 books online from black powder and muzzle loaders to tv shows books and videos.
for those who want to read more historical works, you now have to go here.
bruce.