Considering a O/U 12 bore game gun...but which one?

[Justin.]

Not a great day at the clays range, but I'm not overly concerned about it. Shot 2 games of wobble trap with MOD & IM...14/25 and 18/25. Started getting it sorted out towards the end of the first game, noticeable improvement on the second. Chose not to push it...just relax and let it come to me. Probably need to spend a little time at the patterning board to see exactly where I'm hitting. Felt better than either Beretta, coming up much more naturally. Typical day at wobble for me is 18-22/25 with the SBE2 and was 16-20/25 with the Berettas. Getting used to swinging 30" tubes with a shotgun that weighs 7.75# is going to take a little time. Next time I'll head to the sporting clays range.

Mrs BeeMaa snapped this one at the range. If I don't shoot well, at least the gun looks good loosing.
View attachment 432670

That is an absolutely beautiful gun my goodness. I have never even considered owning one until I saw yours, dreams of hunting over a well trained dog with a fine shotgun like that came out of nowhere LOL!

 

[Tango]

After owning and shooting 2 Beretta 686's (matching 12 & 20 bore) both with 26" barrels, I sold them recently. The reason for selling them was simple, they didn't fit me well and it made shooting them not so much fun.

I have resigned myself to using my Benelli SBE2 on the clays range and for future bird work. For some reason this shotgun just fits me like a glove and breaks clays and kills everything. That being said, I still want to be one of the "cool kids" with an O/U. This also goes to the fact that I don't want to lob trash out of my ejection port on a hunt, then have to reach over and police it up.

So it would seem that I should be looking at the Benelli 686U right? After all it's a Benelli so it's awesome. Comes with shims to adjust drop and cast. Will perfectly match the dimensions of the SBE2 I have. And to top it off it take the exact same chokes as my SBE...bonus! So the deep dive began on the 686U.

My guns are tools, tools that get used and hunted with. They will get banged around a bit and need to be built accordingly. The 686U has a carbon fiber top rib that I've been told you might as well go ahead and order a spare...what? Next is the wood of the forend is rather thin and has been cracked/broken by several users during disassembly or putting it down in a truck bed...what the hell? The trigger design, while innovative and removable for cleaning, has been reported to drop out during use...WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL IS GOING ON?

OK, so the 686U has been taken off the table at the moment. What does this leave me in the way of getting a O/U that fits me properly for a price of $4K or less. I don't even know what to expect when looking at a custom stock, making stock alterations or the prices to expect. I live in Northern Virginia and have yet to find a competent shotgun gunsmith that I would trust with anything more than removable choke change. Wood grad above 4 is lost on me. I appreciate fine wood, but not on a game gun that I'm likely to beat up in the field.

I'd consider the Beretta 686 the entry level for my search. Durability, ubiquity along with the good looks and lines of a true game gun (without being obnoxious) are what I'm looking for. I'd also like screw in chokes and if they matched my SBE2 it would be a great. All thoughts and considerations are appreciated. Thank you for reading my Saturday morning rant.

"All thoughts appreciated".....here we go: I recently found myself in a similar situation, wanting a fine O/U game gun.....the shotgun for me. I've got semi-autos and there's a place for them, but a fine double is without equal when it comes to handling. I did see your $4,000 budget, noted, however I'd suggest considering a few points regarding value for money vs simple cost on the quest for what you want here:
- You mention wanting the shotgun to fit you well, which I think is absolutely mandatory and non-negotiable! Too many Americans struggle with shotgunning because there is no real history here of having shotguns properly fit to the shooter. They get something close and eventually make it work well enough. Very few coaches or gunsmiths have the tools and expertise to actually fit a shotgun properly; a live-fire try gun, access to the range to confirm the try gun fit (vs in the shop), patterning plates etc.
- Buying a more or less standard gun (Citori, 686, Guerini, Rizzini etc) and then having it "modified to fit" is rarely a great solution when all is said and done. It may be close, but never the complete, dynamic package you want with a shotgun. After trying this a few times, I found the "fit it after I buy it" approach rarely works out well cost or finished product-wise.
- After a great deal of research, I came to the conclusion that getting a truly made-to-order shotgun, done to your dimensions, is a challenge in America. Like most questions related to game shooting/shotgunning, I believe the English solved this one 100+ years ago; save and/or budget for a fine shotgun and have it made to fit you from the get go.
- From this perspective, I quickly determined that Perazzi is the king of O/U shotguns for good reason. That's not to say there aren't other durable, functional, high quality shotgun brands. There are many. I'm only saying that Perazzi stands alone when it comes to the way they build guns to fit their customers vs building guns with average dimensions for dealer inventory. They want you to spec the entire gun to your dimensions and taste. Yes, they are expensive, but when you look at everything they include for approx $12,000 for an MX12/20 game gun, (vs starting with a $4,000+ shotgun and adding $2,000-$4,000 in stock mods/new stocks/gunsmithing etc) the cost becomes less shocking and more understandable.
- Additionally, the final Perazzi product is an absolute work of art that you can shoot without fear of wearing out. With a decent degree of care, they retain their value well beyond standard off the rack guns.
- Once I settled on the Perazzi course, I had to come up with the money. I surely wouldn't minimize this cost in any way, it's a pile of money, but I simply put my head down and saved, sold guns, bicycles, watches etc I didn't use or want, worked extra projects etc. It doesn't take many modern Benelli, Beretta etc semi-auto shotguns at $1200-$2000 each or a string of almost fit, rack grade O/U's to equal the cost of a Perazzi. Sure, that's rationalizing things to some degree, but the numbers don't lie when it's all tallied up. With some careful planning, saving, selling and discipline you'll have the money soon enough.....kind of like paying for an African hunt.
- I can't say enough about the full Perazzi purchase experience either. After having a proper fit and finalizing your dimensions (a process that alone was wonderful and enlightening) you are then able to spec your barrel length, barrel weight, chokes, rib, wood grade, general stock, pad, and fore-end style & finish etc. along with your specific stock dimensions. It's amazing!
- (Just noticed the last few posts on barrel length.....be careful with short barrels, you'll be shocked at how deadly light 29"+ barrels are on a properly fit, well-balanced shotgun! Awesome!)

Anyway, just another idea to consider. Delete and forgive the rambling if I'm way off target here, but it's a great solution if workable for you. I wish I'd have been able to do it earlier in life and experience clays & game shooting with a properly fit shotgun. It's like your first glass of truly high-end fine (French) wine. Happy to pass along suggestions/experience reagrding gun fitters, Perazzi dealers, etc if interested. Good luck

 

[Red Leg]

"All thoughts appreciated".....here we go: I recently found myself in a similar situation, wanting a fine O/U game gun.....the shotgun for me. I've got semi-autos and there's a place for them, but a fine double is without equal when it comes to handling. I did see your $4,000 budget, noted, however I'd suggest considering a few points regarding value for money vs simple cost on the quest for what you want here:
- You mention wanting the shotgun to fit you well, which I think is absolutely mandatory and non-negotiable! Too many Americans struggle with shotgunning because there is no real history here of having shotguns properly fit to the shooter. They get something close and eventually make it work well enough. Very few coaches or gunsmiths have the tools and expertise to actually fit a shotgun properly; a live-fire try gun, access to the range to confirm the try gun fit (vs in the shop), patterning plates etc.
- Buying a more or less standard gun (Citori, 686, Guerini, Rizzini etc) and then having it "modified to fit" is rarely a great solution when all is said and done. It may be close, but never the complete, dynamic package you want with a shotgun. After trying this a few times, I found the "fit it after I buy it" approach rarely works out well cost or finished product-wise.
- After a great deal of research, I came to the conclusion that getting a truly made-to-order shotgun, done to your dimensions, is a challenge in America. Like most questions related to game shooting/shotgunning, I believe the English solved this one 100+ years ago; save and/or budget for a fine shotgun and have it made to fit you from the get go.
- From this perspective, I quickly determined that Perazzi is the king of O/U shotguns for good reason. That's not to say there aren't other durable, functional, high quality shotgun brands. There are many. I'm only saying that Perazzi stands alone when it comes to the way they build guns to fit their customers vs building guns with average dimensions for dealer inventory. They want you to spec the entire gun to your dimensions and taste. Yes, they are expensive, but when you look at everything they include for approx $12,000 for an MX12/20 game gun, (vs starting with a $4,000+ shotgun and adding $2,000-$4,000 in stock mods/new stocks/gunsmithing etc) the cost becomes less shocking and more understandable.
- Additionally, the final Perazzi product is an absolute work of art that you can shoot without fear of wearing out. With a decent degree of care, they retain their value well beyond standard off the rack guns.
- Once I settled on the Perazzi course, I had to come up with the money. I surely wouldn't minimize this cost in any way, it's a pile of money, but I simply put my head down and saved, sold guns, bicycles, watches etc I didn't use or want, worked extra projects etc. It doesn't take many modern Benelli, Beretta etc semi-auto shotguns at $1200-$2000 each or a string of almost fit, rack grade O/U's to equal the cost of a Perazzi. Sure, that's rationalizing things to some degree, but the numbers don't lie when it's all tallied up. With some careful planning, saving, selling and discipline you'll have the money soon enough.....kind of like paying for an African hunt.
- I can't say enough about the full Perazzi purchase experience either. After having a proper fit and finalizing your dimensions (a process that alone was wonderful and enlightening) you are then able to spec your barrel length, barrel weight, chokes, rib, wood grade, general stock, pad, and fore-end style & finish etc. along with your specific stock dimensions. It's amazing!
- (Just noticed the last few posts on barrel length.....be careful with short barrels, you'll be shocked at how deadly light 29"+ barrels are on a properly fit, well-balanced shotgun! Awesome!)

Anyway, just another idea to consider. Delete and forgive the rambling if I'm way off target here, but it's a great solution if workable for you. I wish I'd have been able to do it earlier in life and experience clays & game shooting with a properly fit shotgun. It's like your first glass of truly high-end fine (French) wine. Happy to pass along suggestions/experience reagrding gun fitters, Perazzi dealers, etc if interested. Good luck

Perazzi is indeed a fine gun.

However, I own well over a dozen shotguns, the vast majority of which are SxS's, but a few OU's most wouldn't sneer at. Some are 19th century hammer guns, some English and Continental from the Golden Age, and still others are modern. They all fit me. Perfectly. Other than basic quality, the key is not the brand. What is absolutely important is knowing one's personal fit. LOP can be easily trimmed or lengthened, drop and cast are easily adjusted by bending the stock. Obviously, none of this should be attempted by a shade tree gunsmith, but several in this country can adjust the dimensions of a quality shotgun (or rifle). There is no reason to live with a good gun that doesn't properly fit the owner.

 

[Tbitty]

I don't claim to be a world class shooter or want to sound arrogant here. But I've never seen the need for a custom fitted gun (rifle or shotgun). Perhaps I'm just blessed in this manner, but I can take any "standard" option, any action, any caliber and go shoot it just as well as my favorite gun in the safe. As long as the gun and ammo is capable, I have 100% confidence in myself to make it work. For the price of some custom or highly adjustable option, I can buy many different guns or fund hunts. Perhaps if I were going for elite capability, I would find the merits of going for a fitted option. I'm almost certain that only the top 1% of shooters in the world are actually capable of more than the average gun can provide.

 

[BeeMaa]

I don't claim to be a world class shooter or want to sound arrogant here. But I've never seen the need for a custom fitted gun (rifle or shotgun). Perhaps I'm just blessed in this manner, but I can take any "standard" option, any action, any caliber and go shoot it just as well as my favorite gun in the safe. As long as the gun and ammo is capable, I have 100% confidence in myself to make it work. For the price of some custom or highly adjustable option, I can buy many different guns or fund hunts. Perhaps if I were going for elite capability, I would find the merits of going for a fitted option. I'm almost certain that only the top 1% of shooters in the world are actually capable of more than the average gun can provide.

I’d say there is a case for shooters being more capable than their equipment, but that it does take a significant amount of practice to get there.

My point is that why would you start off by handicapping yourself with an ill fitting firearm to begin with? If it comes up natural, sights meet the eye as the cheek hits the stock…this is what most are looking for. Having the ability to adjust LOP, drop, cast…etc can make a big difference in how YOU shoot a rifle. Add to the mix a big bore caliber and this becomes even more critical in how recoil is transmitted to the shooter.

In the end, a rifle or shotgun should fit as well as possible to get the best out of the shooter and firearm from the start.

 

[Tango]

I’d say there is a case for shooters being more capable than their equipment, but that it does take a significant amount of practice to get there.

My point is that why would you start off by handicapping yourself with an ill fitting firearm to begin with? If it comes up natural, sights meet the eye as the cheek hits the stock…this is what most are looking for. Having the ability to adjust LOP, drop, cast…etc can make a big difference in how YOU shoot a rifle. Add to the mix a big bore caliber and this becomes even more critical in how recoil is transmitted to the shooter.

In the end, a rifle or shotgun should fit as well as possible to get the best out of the shooter and firearm from the start.

100%. Until I'd gone through a proper fit (Keith Lupton) I didn't know what I didn't know....despite being a better than average game/clays shot with a rack gun. The pervasive, generally American idea that fitting a shotgun to you is a waste of money is why there are so few options when it comes to this service here.

 

[Tango]

Perazzi is indeed a fine gun.

However, I own well over a dozen shotguns, the vast majority of which are SxS's, but a few OU's most wouldn't sneer at. Some are 19th century hammer guns, some English and Continental from the Golden Age, and still others are modern. They all fit me. Perfectly. Other than basic quality, the key is not the brand. What is absolutely important is knowing one's personal fit. LOP can be easily trimmed or lengthened, drop and cast are easily adjusted by bending the stock. Obviously, none of this should be attempted by a shade tree gunsmith, but several in this country can adjust the dimensions of a quality shotgun (or rifle). There is no reason to live with a good gun that doesn't properly fit the owner.

Agreed, it's relatively easy to make minor adjustment unless you need more extreme dimensions, especially a higher than normal comb etc

 

[WAB]

100%. Until I'd gone through a proper fit (Keith Lupton) I didn't know what I didn't know....despite being a better than average game/clays shot with a rack gun. The pervasive, generally American idea that fitting a shotgun to you is a waste of money is why there are so few options when it comes to this service here.

Agreed. I had my friend at the H&H London range fit me many years ago. It made a tremendous difference.

On this side of the pond, Brian Bilinski at Fieldsport in Traverse City, MI does a very good job.

 

[Tbitty]

100%. Until I'd gone through a proper fit (Keith Lupton) I didn't know what I didn't know....despite being a better than average game/clays shot with a rack gun. The pervasive, generally American idea that fitting a shotgun to you is a waste of money is why there are so few options when it comes to this service here.

Makes sense

 

[Tango]

Agreed. I had my friend at the H&H London range fit me many years ago. It made a tremendous difference.

On this side of the pond, Brian Bilinski at Fieldsport in Traverse City, MI does a very good job.

Bilinski is one of the best!

 

[Nevada Mike]

Some years ago I bought - sight unseen - an English 'best' built by Henry Atkin, a lightweight 12 gauge sidelock. It fit me fairly well but I took it over to Dale Tate to assess possible tweaks. After a lot to mounting, looking and measuring, Dale told me, "You are one of the very few people that come though my door that has a gun that actually fits them. You don't need any alterations, it fits you perfectly!" being a left hand shooter I am accustomed to having new guns bent or re-stocked, so I was pleased that he found no need for 'tweaks'. I'm still shooting it.

 

[Tango]

That is a real gem!

 

[leslie hetrick]

we have a young man who shoots with use between jobs(bridge concrete worker), mike is i think 26-28 years old and its a joy to shoot with him. he shoots a field grade 12 ga remington 870 pump with a 30" barrel and a lite mod choke tube. at three different ranges he shoots 45-47 on a 50 round course 90% of the time. i have gone around with him with out shooting just to watch him in action.

 

[BeeMaa]

we have a young man who shoots with use between jobs(bridge concrete worker), mike is i think 26-28 years old and its a joy to shoot with him. he shoots a field grade 12 ga remington 870 pump with a 30" barrel and a lite mod choke tube. at three different ranges he shoots 45-47 on a 50 round course 90% of the time. i have gone around with him with out shooting just to watch him in action.

I aspire to shoot this well with a shotgun. Finding the time to go to the range is my issue. To make up for it I'll spend about a half hour in the evening mounting the shotgun over and over, training my eye, following the wall/ceiling crease from a corner, getting the feel of it. Truthfully, it's very relaxing. Then when I finally get to the range, all the mounting issues are worked out and I can focus on sight picture and trigger pull.

 

[Tanks]

I aspire to shoot this well with a shotgun. ... Then when I finally get to the range, all the mounting issues are worked out and I can focus on sight picture and trigger pull.

I gather you mean focusing on the edge of the clay, there really is no sight picture on shotgun per se as one is not supposed to look at the front sight or the gun barrel.

 

[Challer]

Damn. I take it for competition? We have a friend who shoots competition and has a few, but I'm not sure how many stocks and barrel sets total. His are are beautifully engraved in different themes, while mine wears the basic black. Love for you to share a picture.

Two set up for competition, one for birds. Take all the weights out and the adjustable comb, and you lose about 2.5 lbs, making what Blaser used to sell as the game version

 

[Challer]

I don't claim to be a world class shooter or want to sound arrogant here. But I've never seen the need for a custom fitted gun (rifle or shotgun). Perhaps I'm just blessed in this manner, but I can take any "standard" option, any action, any caliber and go shoot it just as well as my favorite gun in the safe. As long as the gun and ammo is capable, I have 100% confidence in myself to make it work. For the price of some custom or highly adjustable option, I can buy many different guns or fund hunts. Perhaps if I were going for elite capability, I would find the merits of going for a fitted option. I'm almost certain that only the top 1% of shooters in the world are actually capable of more than the average gun can provide.

A fitted gun, like golf clubs, makes all the difference

 

[leslie hetrick]

we wecome any and all shooters at the ranges we shoot at, from new to old and any shotguns. some the of men i shoot with are very good and some are not, but the main thing is we enjoy shooting with each other and have know each other for many years(i shoot with two class mates from high school-1962). we don,t stand for non safe conduct, cursing-bad manners, some do wear funny cloths.

 

[Tango]

I aspire to shoot this well with a shotgun. Finding the time to go to the range is my issue. To make up for it I'll spend about a half hour in the evening mounting the shotgun over and over, training my eye, following the wall/ceiling crease from a corner, getting the feel of it. Truthfully, it's very relaxing. Then when I finally get to the range, all the mounting issues are worked out and I can focus on sight picture and trigger pull.

Great routine for sure. Treat yourself to a day of proper shotgun instruction with Bilinski, Lupton, Chris Batha etc. Wonderful experience.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I’d recommend taking a long hard look at the Browning B-25 Superposed, with a mechanical single selective trigger. Mechanical single selective triggers have their advantages over inertia operated single selective triggers.