Comparison of the .500s

[spike.t]

Heym used to make a bolt action rifle in 500 NE.

Had one

 

[postoak]

There are four elements that contribute to recoil and that are essential to know in order to calculate the recoil of a particular firearm, all equally important.

The weight of the powder charge, weight of the bullet, speed of the bullet and weight of the firearm.
With the exact charges you provided; weight of bullets, speed of bullets and your weight of rifles of 11.5 pounds, the recoil is:
68.54 lbs, 79.37 lbs and 85.64 lbs respectively in the order which you provided.

The higher recoil figures you provided are accurate for a rifle weighing 10.5 pounds.

That 68.54 lbs. is .416 Rigby territory, isn't it?

 

[Paul Homsy]

My 500 Jeffery weighs 11.9 pounds, powder charge of 113.5 grains, bullet weight 600 grains, velocity 2205fps, recoil energy = 91.9ft/lbs

I get 82.58 Lbs with the elements you provided. If I use a calculator the result is 95.25 because the recoil impulse is calculated and added as well as the recoil velocity. These last two are more subjective. I calculate raw recoil which I feel is more exact, and even then, not quite perfectly accurate because of recoil pads, clothing etc...

Calculators give slightly less for lighter cartridges such all the way up to the 338s and more for heavier cartridges such as the 500 Jeffery. Incorporating recoil impulse and recoil velocity also don't take into account stock manufacture, wooden stock VS synthetic. I prefer to stick to raw recoil, I feel it's far more accurate. The rest consists of too many variables.

 

[IvW]

Instead of calculating I shoot a rifle and then decide.....
If I had to calculate my 500 Jeff recoil on a calculater I may have to put it down. ..
Either you can handle the recoil or you cannot.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Instead of calculating I shoot a rifle and then decide.....
If I had to calculate my 500 Jeff recoil on a calculater I may have to put it down. ..
Either you can handle the recoil or you cannot.

A favor please...No put downs. I replied to someone else, not you, who posted about their rifle. I shoot several rifles and don't need anyone posing as a can do. Talking ballistics doesn't mean one is incapable. It's often quite the contrary. Keep your attitude to yourself.

 

[Paul Homsy]

"If I had to calculate my 500 Jeff recoil on a calculater I may have to put it down"

. Afraid of numbers ? Numbers are reality, they don't lie. Amusing. And..." It's calculator with an "O"

 

[colorado]

Yes you're right sorry H4895 I took the load straight out of the book "Any Shot You Want"
It's very accurate in my rifle. A 3 shot group taken at 50 yards.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Paul Homsy you made a statement of your preference for using a calculator. @IvW made a statement of his preference for shooting the rifle to see if he could handle it or not. You made a statement of too many variables and subjectivity which left a justified opening for his reply. It's simplest to just go ahead and shoot the gun. I believe you read something that was not there. Clearly you are upset about it since you posted twice about it in a span of 12 minutes trying to elicit a hasty dialogue of sorts and that's most unfortunate. I believe the individual in question is generally rough and coarse in tone, however I don't see that here.

All that said, I find your calculations useful for comparison of the potential of a particular caliber or gun, but in the end you must take the ride. One of the most uncomfortable rifles I ever shot was a wooden stocked AK-47. It had a short stock that was narrow and it just channeled what little recoil it had into a tiny point on my shoulder that was just unpleasant. Looking at everything you'd say that would be fine, but in taking the ride it was not. My .458 Lott Ruger No. 1 is a very nice rifle to look at and I'm sure that it makes for some interesting calculations too, but I think it kicks a bit more that the 77 ft/lbs I came up with. Maybe that's the 23 ft/sec recoil velocity? That said I will take that ride as able because it amuses me and I want to utilize that power.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Yes you're right sorry H4895 I took the load straight out of the book "Any Shot You Want"
It's very accurate in my rifle. A 3 shot group taken at 50 yards.

View attachment 395644

You're very proud of this group. I'll bet you have a picture of it on your phone. The subject of rifles comes up and BAM! out it comes. Of course it would be better with the rifle in the same frame...just saying...

BTW did you adjust for the half inch left? I meant to ask you that.

The .500 Jeffrey tack driver.

 

[IvW]

"If I had to calculate my 500 Jeff recoil on a calculater I may have to put it down"

. Afraid of numbers ? Numbers are reality, they don't lie. Amusing. And..." It's calculator with an "O"

Never been afraid of numbers.

Recoil in big bores or super bores as the 500's are often referred to is real. Rifle fit and balance goes a long way in mitigating this.

For a proper comparison more modern ballistics should be considered.
500 NE 570gr
500 Jeff 570gr
505 Gibbs often liaded with a 600gr

Any of these calibers will have substantial felt recoil if the rifle is too light and especially if it does not fit the shooter..rather simple.

I have loaded my 500 Jeff to 2450fps with a 570gr bullet and it is not fun even though the rifle fits me. Muzzle lift is also substantial reducing recovery time for the second shot.

I know nobody here who calculates recoil on a calculator before deciding on a load or caliber. We generally check the rifle for fit, balance and reliabilty(caliber is mainly decided by historic use) so you will find most PH's own a 375 H&H, step up to a 416 RM or Rigby a 458 LOTT(popular) and then if elephant and buffalo make out a large number of hunts anyone of the 500 mentioned. This is from a back up point of view.

Anyway maybe we do things differently here in Africa

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I get 82.58 Lbs with the elements you provided. If I use a calculator the result is 95.25 because the recoil impulse is calculated and added as well as the recoil velocity. These last two are more subjective. I calculate raw recoil which I feel is more exact, and even then, not quite perfectly accurate because of recoil pads, clothing etc...

Calculators give slightly less for lighter cartridges such all the way up to the 338s and more for heavier cartridges such as the 500 Jeffery. Incorporating recoil impulse and recoil velocity also don't take into account stock manufacture, wooden stock VS synthetic. I prefer to stick to raw recoil, I feel it's far more accurate. The rest consists of too many variables.

I'm not aware of anyone that shoots their 500 Jeffery without a recoil pad and naked..............
But yeah anyway I am sure the many online calculators are not completely accurate.

 

[michael458]

I'm not aware of anyone that shoots their 500 Jeffery without a recoil pad and naked.............

Well then, I have a story for you................

Many years ago I was assisting this chaps brother with a shooting project. This fellow is, or was just pure hillbilly redneck, top to bottom. Loud, obnoxious, and just a pest. At times he would show up unannounced to visit, which was annoying to say the least, and his brother nearly the same. In all honesty, I did not care much for them, and I did not care for the visits.

Late one Friday afternoon I was rather busy on a project of my own, and here this Redneck pitches up with a friend of his. Comes in the door, loud, obnoxious, and announces he wanted to "Shoot the biggest gun I had"..............I am not a happy camper about being disturbed and now having to entertain rednecks as well! Now, it is one of those rather warm days here in SC, my Redneck does not have a shirt on either! Naked on top! (this is the Naked Part)...... Thank god above it did not go further than the damn shirt!

OK, the more this goes on, the more aggravated I am. I have a big 510 Wells, it is brutal to say the least. I also had some 600 gr Woodleigh's loaded on the shelf, at a tad over 2300 fps. I figured this would do......... I grabbed the rifle, handed it to him, then I grabbed ONE round out of the box!! "Oh No, I want to shoot it more than ONCE", he states. OK, this is starting to get better to me, I take TWO more rounds out, total of THREE now.

This was before my indoor range, so we headed outside. As we made our way out, I asked how do you want to shoot the gun? "Oh I will sit at the bench" ........... OK.... I pick up a "Sissy Pad" for him, and ask him, "Do you want the SISSY PAD?"...... I emphasized "SISSY" strongly, knowing what the response would be, and of course I was correct, he DECLINED the Pad with no hesitation, and along with the ear muffs as well............ OK, No Shirt, No Pad, No ear Muffs, and shooting from the BENCH... this was getting better by the minute.............

On the way to the 50 yard bench he was loud and bragging to his friend, showing off a bit. I tagged him a target at 50 yards, and he sit down at the bench. Now normally I will always give some instruction to people of how to hold, what to do, and in general how to handle the big bore rifles. This time, I gave zero advice, and no instructions.

I hand him Round One. He loads, hunkers down on the bench, I can tell the gun is not tight, and he fires it off! Oh my god, what a hoot, he nearly falls off the back of the bench, his shoulder is already red, he is rubbing it, cussing, all manner of stomping around and so forth. This is real good to me. Out of my pocket, I pull up ROUND #2 for him, he announces no he does not want to shoot again and I shame him into Round TWO....... This Redneck is not happy sitting down again with the gun. His buddy snickers some, I am getting happier by the second.......... He fires, jerks the rifle so hard it hits 25 yards in front of the target in the dirt......... HEH HEH...................

He is walking around, rubbing shoulder, cussing, stomping, and damn near crying I think............ When I pull out ROUND #3 for him!!!!!!! HEH HEH........ You never seen such begging in your life, he begged his friend to shoot it, he begged me to not shoot it, but at every turn I refused, his buddy refused, and he was shamed once again to shoot the THIRD ROUND............

Repeat of the second round, in the dirt 25 yards in front of the target. I can see the shoulder turning blue already, rather ugly sight. There is indeed tears flowing now, and I can't help but smile at this, and his buddy is busting out laughing at him. I take the rifle, and he is hobbling to his truck and states he is leaving. As he is getting in his truck, I tell him that every time he pitches up to visit, I have his rifle waiting for him and that he will be required to shoot it 3 times on every visit from here forward....................... He leaves ................. That has been many many years ago, I have never seen, nor heard of him again after that day.

So you might say, he was near Naked, and while the gun had a pad, he only had his naked shoulder.... HEH HEH..............I was able to rid myself of his brother not too long after that as well, I have not heard of either of them again...............

 

[calling4life]

The 505 gibbs with 600s at 2600fps still sounds the most interesting to me.
Modern times call for modern loads and modern power.

With my degenerative disc disease I'd likely need to have whichever gunsmith can convert my CZ 550 to 505 Gibbs these days make it about 16 lbs or so, and still make sure to have an effective muzzle brake.

Would be acceptable to me though, I carried a 16lb rig for years, even in down to 40 below temps with snowshoes in play. Would sure be neat to see how the coyotes react to getting hit with that...

Good brake, 16lbs, I do wonder what one would expect for recoil, weight of gun should make for a push more so than smack. My 458 lott is 10 1/2lbs with a brake, Federal 500gr trophy bonded bearclaws, recoil's ok for me, for now.

 

[colorado]

You're very proud of this group. I'll bet you have a picture of it on your phone. The subject of rifles comes up and BAM! out it comes. Of course it would be better with the rifle in the same frame...just saying...

BTW did you adjust for the half inch left? I meant to ask you that.

The .500 Jeffrey tack driver.

Of course, it's dead on now. It's a varmint rifle lol

 

[michael458]

 

[colorado]

The 505 gibbs with 600s at 2600fps still sounds the most interesting to me.
Modern times call for modern loads and modern power.

With my degenerative disc disease I'd likely need to have whichever gunsmith can convert my CZ 550 to 505 Gibbs these days make it about 16 lbs or so, and still make sure to have an effective muzzle brake.

Would be acceptable to me though, I carried a 16lb rig for years, even in down to 40 below temps with snowshoes in play. Would sure be neat to see how the coyotes react to getting hit with that...

Good brake, 16lbs, I do wonder what one would expect for recoil, weight of gun should make for a push more so than smack. My 458 lott is 10 1/2lbs with a brake, Federal 500gr trophy bonded bearclaws, recoil's ok for me, for now.

As I was working up loads for my 500 Jeffery, using a lot of IMR4350 , I got up to 2510 fps with a 570g TSX. Recoil in my 12 lb (with scope and rings) 500 Jeffery, was to say the least, unpleasant.

 

[Paul Homsy]

d

@Paul Homsy you made a statement of your preference for using a calculator. @IvW made a statement of his preference for shooting the rifle to see if he could handle it or not. You made a statement of too many variables and subjectivity which left a justified opening for his reply. It's simplest to just go ahead and shoot the gun. I believe you read something that was not there. Clearly you are upset about it since you posted twice about it in a span of 12 minutes trying to elicit a hasty dialogue of sorts and that's most unfortunate. I believe the individual in question is generally rough and coarse in tone, however I don't see that here.

All that said, I find your calculations useful for comparison of the potential of a particular caliber or gun, but in the end you must take the ride. One of the most uncomfortable rifles I ever shot was a wooden stocked AK-47. It had a short stock that was narrow and it just channeled what little recoil it had into a tiny point on my shoulder that was just unpleasant. Looking at everything you'd say that would be fine, but in taking the ride it was not. My .458 Lott Ruger No. 1 is a very nice rifle to look at and I'm sure that it makes for some interesting calculations too, but I think it kicks a bit more that the 77 ft/lbs I came up with. Maybe that's the 23 ft/sec recoil velocity? That said I will take that ride as able because it amuses me and I want to utilize that power.

@Paul Homsy you made a statement of your preference for using a calculator. @IvW made a statement of his preference for shooting the rifle to see if he could handle it or not. You made a statement of too many variables and subjectivity which left a justified opening for his reply. It's simplest to just go ahead and shoot the gun. I believe you read something that was not there. Clearly you are upset about it since you posted twice about it in a span of 12 minutes trying to elicit a hasty dialogue of sorts and that's most unfortunate. I believe the individual in question is generally rough and coarse in tone, however I don't see that here.

All that said, I find your calculations useful for comparison of the potential of a particular caliber or gun, but in the end you must take the ride. One of the most uncomfortable rifles I ever shot was a wooden stocked AK-47. It had a short stock that was narrow and it just channeled what little recoil it had into a tiny point on my shoulder that was just unpleasant. Looking at everything you'd say that would be fine, but in taking the ride it was not. My .458 Lott Ruger No. 1 is a very nice rifle to look at and I'm sure that it makes for some interesting calculations too, but I think it kicks a bit more that the 77 ft/lbs I came up with. Maybe that's the 23 ft/sec recoil velocity? That said I will take that ride as able because it amuses me and I want to utilize that power.

Sorry about the double print. I tried to reply yesterday but for some reason my entire text was deleted, I pressed the wrong key.
You read me correctly. I didn't see the relationship between numbers and the ability to shoot heavy rifles. One does not exclude the other. In my personal experience at least.
Your Ruger Number 1 must be relatively light. I wont create another discussion by giving my calculated figures by they are less in a 10 Lbs rifle. I don't use online calculators, they are sophisticated and incorporate more elements than I do, I only incorporate the four essential elements; weight of powder charge, weight of bullet, speed of bullet and weight of firearm. It gives me comparative values to what I've already shot, what recoil I found tolerable and what I didn't find pleasant at all. I've had access for over 40 years to a variety of calibers. The only one I didn't try that was offered to me was a 600 NE.

Thank you for taking the time to write.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Never been afraid of numbers.

Recoil in big bores or super bores as the 500's are often referred to is real. Rifle fit and balance goes a long way in mitigating this.

For a proper comparison more modern ballistics should be considered.
500 NE 570gr
500 Jeff 570gr
505 Gibbs often liaded with a 600gr

Any of these calibers will have substantial felt recoil if the rifle is too light and especially if it does not fit the shooter..rather simple.

I have loaded my 500 Jeff to 2450fps with a 570gr bullet and it is not fun even though the rifle fits me. Muzzle lift is also substantial reducing recovery time for the second shot.

I know nobody here who calculates recoil on a calculator before deciding on a load or caliber. We generally check the rifle for fit, balance and reliabilty(caliber is mainly decided by historic use) so you will find most PH's own a 375 H&H, step up to a 416 RM or Rigby a 458 LOTT(popular) and then if elephant and buffalo make out a large number of hunts anyone of the 500 mentioned. This is from a back up point of view.

Anyway maybe we do things differently here in Africa

I agree with everything you said in this post save for the very last line. It's the way things are done in a progressive manner and in general is a pretty universal approach.

 

[Paul Homsy]

That 68.54 lbs. is .416 Rigby territory, isn't it?

It is in a 9.5 lbs rifle with a conventional load. (give or take a bit). In a 10.5 lbs rifle the conventional 2400 fps recoils around 58 lbs. If your load in the Rigby exceeds 2550 fps with a 400 grains bullet in a 10.5 lbs rifle then recoil is also around 68lbs.

 

[uplander01]

I just ran across this thread looking for some load data for my 500 jeffery with H4831. Powder is really hard to come by right now and I'm trying to use up what I have on hand.

In regard to recoil, the 500J and 505 gibbs are the 2 largest calibers I've ever owned. The current 500J is a 10.5 pound M98 rifle with 13.75 LOP, (I am 6'1"and weigh 205). I have hand loaded for nearly 30 years and IMO the powder charge volume, burn rate and weight of bullet have dramatic effects on felt recoil. I could tell right away that full charge 535gr loads going 2300+ were not something I would be able to have constructive practice sessions with at the range. I really enjoy shooting often and I humbly believe that the more you can shoot a rifle the better you will be with it. You may all call me a wuss , but again IMO when bullets are pushed to their max velocities you are also introducing margin of error on impact.....but I digress. In short, I'm perfectly happy with loading 94gr of H4895 or various other powders pushing the 535 woodleigh or swift A frame right at the age old magic number of 2150fps. Pretty confident it will do the job and I can actually practice with it , but I personally feel this is my recoil limit. I can already hear some of you uttering the words "what a shame for all that wasted potential horsepower, why don't you just shoot a 416 rigby?" Well, I enjoy the hand loading experience for all the different african calibers, also like experiencing the different custom rifle makers talents in the various rifle platforms, mauser 98 being my favorite. This 500J is a Sterling Davenport, beautiful rifle with a magazine conversion to center feed single stack 3 rd capacity, never seen anything like it, it was priced right, and ultimately had to have it. I have no idea how many he built like this but it should probably belong to a PH, not a safari every 3-5 year guy like myself.....

I guess my point is when you find a rifle and caliber you're excited about, give it a try, experiment within reason with loads and find your comfort zone, buy a shooting shirt and put a extra pad in it. If you damage your should your "big rifle" days are over. Enjoy the rifles and shooting sports fellas, we are probably of the last couple generations that will even be interested in such things.

I really enjoy reading all of your experienced opinions and ideas.