Compare Recoil

[sestoppelman]

I think my 30-06 belts me a lot more than my 375HH. More like a sharp jab than a push like the 375. Then again I'm comparing an 8 1/2 lb MRC 06 and 180g TSX to my 11 lb 375HH Win Safari Express and 235g TSX . Even the 350g TSX feels lighter. All three loads are about 2 to 2 1/2 g below max. Probably 2 1/2 lb makes a difference, too.

The above proves one thing and one thing only. That "felt" recoil, real or imagined is 100 percent subjective. To me the idea that any '06 kicks more than any .375 is ludicrous, but that's why its subjective, because numbers don't lie. An 8.5 lbs '06 is not exactly a lightweight either. You might have an argument if your '06 weight 3.5 # and the .375 weighed 15#.

 

[Alistair]

Hi everyone,

From your experience in general, How would you grade from 0 to 10 and giving 10 to 470, the recoil of:

300 Win Mag
9,3x62
375 H&H
416 Rig
450/400
470

I've only shot the 300, 9.3, 375 and 416 so I'll place the 416 as a 10.

416 - 10
375 - 6
9.3 - 4.5
300 - 2.5

For reference, the bullet weights and velocities were:

416 - 400gr/ 2200fps / 4300ftlb est
375 - 300gr / 2475fps / 4081ftlb chronoed
9.3 - 286gr / 2400 / 3659ftlb est
300 - 220gr / 2800 / 3830ftlb est.

Interestingly, for me, recoil is much more closely correlated to bullet weight than the actual kinetic energy being produced by the round. Worth considering that for these numbers, the rifle weight decreased from roughly 12lb (416), 10lb(375, 9.3) to 8.5lb (300) as well. The 300 did have a moderator though.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Interestingly, for me, recoil is much more closely correlated to bullet weight than the actual kinetic energy being produced by the round.

I agree with you, I was actually quite surprised that the difference between 165gr and 180gr load in my 308 Win was so noticeable with kinetic energy being quite similar.

 

[Opposite Pole]

One more thing to consider. Mr Wright in his book “Shooting the British Double Rifle”, states that the same cartridge loaded with different powders to the same velocity can have noticeably different perceived recoil.

“There is one slight adverse effect of the very slow powders and that is an increase in felt recoil. This is due to the larger charge weight adding to the ejector mass and/or the muzzle blast jet effect. Whatever the reason, an individual shooter may find it unpleasant and elect to use faster powders.”

 

[BeeMaa]

Interesting subject as always.
Interesting post from Rule .303, I don’t like crappy plastic stocks much. I don’t find Ruger factory stocks comfortable either. Boat paddle, varmint or timber sporter. I did have a Ruger .300wm with a Ramline stock and pachmyr pad I think. It seemed ok. Don’t know why I sold it. Wanted something different.
What do people think of Bell and Carlson stocks on big bores?
I don’t mind shooting my CZ550 in 375H&H but i think there is a Bell and Carlson stock that was fitted on an all weather version at some point, maybe it’s available aftermarket.
Mine is the American styled straight comb walnut.

The B&C is available aftermarket and it was also (not sure if it still is) offered by CZ.
There are rumors of CZ stopping production of the 550 Safari...
Pic of mine afer coming back from AHR.

CZ550 375H&H with AHR #2 Upgrade

• BeeMaa
• Sep 7, 2018
• 4

Balance point is at the middle of the magazine.

 

[CBH Australia]

So what are they like to shoot with the B&C? Has anyone been able to tell a noticeable difference?

 

[chashardy]

Of the listed calibers, I have shot the 300 win mag, 375 H&H and 416 Rigby.
I can't argue with measured, bench recoil, but I can speak to experience in shooting these calibers. Felt Recoil, in my experience, is a function of the caliber, rifle weight, ammunition, experience, and circumstances, i.e. bench or hunting in the field. My rifles are the following: Model 70 Super Grade 300 win mag, Model 70 Safari Express 375 H&H, Chapuis Brousse Double 375 H&H and John Rigby Big Game in 416 Rigby.
I have hunted with all of these except the Rigby, which I just purchased. My experience is that on the bench the 300 win mag is about the same as a 30-06 and very manageable. The Model 70 375 has noticeably more recoil on the bench, but not enough to create any problem. The Chapuis 375 Double has a bit more recoil than the Model 70 on the bench, but it's manageable and when I have used it in the field I can't even remember anything about recoil. The 416 Rigby has a noticeably stronger recoil on the bench, but again it's manageable. The Rigby weighs about 11 pounds and the walnut stock and heavy barrel absorb most of the recoil. The other three rifles all weigh about 10 pounds and all have walnut stocks. I tend to favor Federal Premium ammo, 200 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in the 300 win mag, and 300 grain TBBC in the 375, and 400 grain Swift A-Frame in the 416 Rigby. I should add that I do some amount of clay target and wing shooting with both 12 Gauge and 20 gauge, so I guess I'm used to recoil. Proper gun mount is also a significant factor. Any rifle or shotgun will bruise you if not mounted properly.

 

[fourfive8]

Alistair,
"416 - 10
375 - 6
9.3 - 4.5
300 - 2.5

For reference, the bullet weights and velocities were:

416 - 400gr/ 2200fps / 4300ftlb est
375 - 300gr / 2475fps / 4081ftlb chronoed
9.3 - 286gr / 2400 / 3659ftlb est
300 - 220gr / 2800 / 3830ftlb est.

Interestingly, for me, recoil is much more closely correlated to bullet weight than the actual kinetic energy being produced by the round. Worth considering that for these numbers, the rifle weight decreased from roughly 12lb (416), 10lb(375, 9.3) to 8.5lb (300) as well. The 300 did have a moderator though."

Yes Alistair, that looks pretty close. There is a difference between kinetic energy and momentum. It is a difficult concept to fully understand because kinetic energy is not intuitive. There is somewhat of a closer relationship between momentum and recoil than kinetic energy and recoil. Your perception scale is pretty good and seems to agree with the momentum to recoil relationship.

Here's a very simple way to estimate potential recoil, for comparison purposes, using the basic momentum formula. Multiply bullet weight times velocity to reach an index of momentum therefore potential recoil. The product numbers can only be thought of as an index for comparison to other products similarly calculated. They basically represent Newton's Third Law of Motion. Using the number posted above:

416- 400 x 2200 = 880,000
375- 300 x 2475 = 742,500
9.3- 286 x 2400 = 686,400
300- 220 x 2800 = 616,000

These are raw potentials and must be considered as such where rifle weight, stock material and geometry play such a large role in all descriptions of recoil including perceived recoil.

 

[fourfive8]

The easiest most exact way of course is to use a recoil calculator. But still those things that affect perceived recoil like stock geometry and construction can't easily be plugged in and neither can the effect of a compensator. The math and measurements can be quite complex to calculate the recoil considering every parameter.
Here's a pretty easy to use calculator by a company that also maintains a pretty good ballistics calculator.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

 

[BeeMaa]

So what are they like to shoot with the B&C? Has anyone been able to tell a noticeable difference?

Haven't shot one with a wood stock, so I'm not sure.
I know mine is very comfortable for me to shoot, but it really depends on stock fit.
The larger the caliber, the more important this is.

 

[EZRider]

I have shot a .458 express and .458 Lott in addition to my .375 H&H. All of them were big guns, CZ 550 with American stocks and although the .458 recoiled more than the .375 I experience them to be very similar. A hard, slow push that rocks me back with no pain.
My short barrel Ruger #1 in 7mm rem mag on the other hand kicked the snot out of me! It didn’t fit, was too light and I never enjoyed shooting it.

 

[Milan]

So what are they like to shoot with the B&C? Has anyone been able to tell a noticeable difference?

Haven't shot one with a wood stock, so I'm not sure.
I know mine is very comfortable for me to shoot, but it really depends on stock fit.
The larger the caliber, the more important this is.

I shot both and found no difference. The B&C stock was just as comfortable IMO. This was on a .458 Lott B&C vs. .375 H&H wood. The .458 Lott did have more significant recoil, but was just as comfortable to shoot. Compared to Ruger .458 Lott it was a peach to shoot. Easily could go through a box of ammo from sitting position at the bench. Well...at least that one time...

 

[Milan]

P.S. I found the B&C CZ stock (the factory one) identical in fit (classic straight comb with cheekpiece) to the wooden one. So if CZ wood fits you, CZ B&C should fit just as well.

 

[MS 9x56]

Nsok, to show just how subjective FELT recoil can be, coupled with the effect of being fired from different platforms (remember, these are my personal impressions of recoil based on rifles I have/do own, and others I have fired);

1) I find any of the three different 458 Lotts I have owned to be more comfortable (easier on the shoulder) than any 416 Rigby I have ever fired (full power 416 loads come back much faster than the Lott which is more of a heavy push, than a fast kick)

2) several different 470 Nitro doubles I have fired to be slightly more comfortable (easier on the shoulder) than my full power loads in my Lotts (most of the double 470's I have fired have been very generously weighted at 10lbs and more).

3) my light-weight Rem 700 mountain rifle in .375 H&H extremely comfortable to shoot, more so than a CZ 550 I have in the same calibre that weighs more than a pound heavier (the stock shape and dimentions of my Rem are ideal for me as compared the the Cz stock).

4) most .375's to have been more comfortable (easier to manage) to fire than the, two only, .300 Wby's I have ever fired.

5) have noticed a trend of felt recoil, (on me at least), that cartridges with sharp shoulders, e.g the Wby range, will tend to produce more felt recoil than counterpart tapering rounds. Personally, I find it easier to manage the recoild from a well stocked .338 than firing a .300 Wby.

From my personal perspective, the main factors which appear to have major bearing on the level of "recoil-impact" on me when firing;
* projectile weight X velocity
* stock fit/configuration
* muzzle blast

For me personally, (I have substantial hearing loss, a direct result of exposure to repeated muzzle blast) I experience some 1/3 less (as close as I can judge) actual felt recoil when using hearing protection as opposed to when not.

Proper stock fit and familiarity will go a long way to "taming" felt recoil in big bores but I concede that we all have our individual limits.
I guess I was fortunate, in a way, to have grown up as a young lad accustomed to firing great volumes of 12g rounds at frequent intervals.

These days, after having fired many hundreds of rounds of 458 Lott ammo in the field and over the bench that, for me, knuckling down on the bench with my favourite .375 has become rather mundane and uneventful.

I conceed that there will be many that dissagree with my "perspectives" as I see many different hunters in the field each year, of different shapes and sizes, firing different rifles, all essentially chambered in the same range of big bores, .375, 450/400, 404, 416, 458, 500 and most all displaying different levels of managability and control over the recoil produced in those rifles.

Not much help to you I realise, as I understand from your post you are trying to gauge your ability to cope with the level of cartridge you intend buying.

My suggestion would be to try and find the best fitting rifle in that cartridge, find someone who owns one and test fire it (with moderate loads) off-hand, or from shooting sticks whilst wearing proper hearing protection. If you find that you are able to have some reasonable level of managability, understand that altering the stock of your chosen rifle to best suit your fit, and plenty of familiarity with that rifle will eventually lead to dampening the effects of that recoil.

Also remember this, we have a higher portion of one shot kills on buffalo from hunters placing their first shot well with a comfortable .375 than with all the other cartridges combined !

Sorry for the long winded reply but recoil is a constant factor in my life for both myself and my clients, and although I am aware of, and acknowledge, that not everyone will ever be comfortable with the likes of a 458 Lott or a .500 nitro I believe there is a lot of "whooey" out there written about recoil that prevents some hunters from ever realising the wonderful benefits provided by some of these cartridges when the correct procedures of rifle fit and familiarisation have been addressed.

Paul.

You have hit the nail on the head. The only 3 rifles on the list I have fired are the 9.3 , 300 mag, and 450-400. I generally find the belted magnums the most unpleasant as the recoil as you mentioned tends to be much sharper. I seem to tolerate the shove much better that the slap of the magnums. Even the 450-400 which has what I consider a heaven recoil but being a shove it is not unpleasant and controllable. The 9.3 is not much heavier than an 30-06 with 220 grain bullets. I feel the 300 win is worse with 150 grain bullets that the 06 with 220 grain bullets. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cleveland48]

I have two 9.3x62 rifles. One is a rechambered mauser 98 with 286 grain bullets at 2500 fps. Shooting it and the 375 H&H with factory 300 grain bullets kick about identical to me. The other 9.3x62 is a sauer 100 shooting 232 gr and 250 gr bullets doesn't kick as bad to me. My 416 taylor improved with a 400 grain at 2410 fps kicks quite a bit more to me, but the 350 grain at 2600 fps doesnt kick me as bad as the 400 grain bullets do.

 

[Fastrig]

I have two 9.3x62 rifles. One is a rechambered mauser 98 with 286 grain bullets at 2500 fps. Shooting it and the 375 H&H with factory 300 grain bullets kick about identical to me. The other 9.3x62 is a sauer 100 shooting 232 gr and 250 gr bullets doesn't kick as bad to me. My 416 taylor improved with a 400 grain at 2410 fps kicks quite a bit more to me, but the 350 grain at 2600 fps doesnt kick me as bad as the 400 grain bullets do.

Have a 9.3X62 Mauser M12 Max and a Merkel RX Helix in 300 win mag. Both are light rifles, mid 8 lbs range scoped. The 9.3 produces more of a push recoil that I would say is “heavier” than the 300 wm, where the 300 wm produces more of a quick, sharp slap type recoil. The feeling at the shoulder is quite different. Neither bother me in the least, but the sharp recoil from the 300 wm gets my attention more than the push of the 9.3x62, even with the 9.3’s heavier recoil. I found the recoil of the 375 H&H I’ve shot to be closer to the 9.3 from a feeling perspective, maybe a little heavier push but not much. That rifle was in the mid to upper 9 lbs range so have to take that into the equation. Rounds in these rifles were all factory at 180 grain in the 300 wm, 285 in the 9.3x62, and 300 grain in the 375 H&H.

 

[Cleveland48]

Have a 9.3X62 Mauser M12 Max and a Merkel RX Helix in 300 win mag. Both are light rifles, mid 8 lbs range scoped. The 9.3 produces more of a push recoil that I would say is “heavier” than the 300 wm, where the 300 wm produces more of a quick, sharp slap type recoil. The feeling at the shoulder is quite different. Neither bother me in the least, but the sharp recoil from the 300 wm gets my attention more than the push of the 9.3x62, even with the 9.3’s heavier recoil. I found the recoil of the 375 H&H I’ve shot to be closer to the 9.3 from a feeling perspective, maybe a little heavier push but not much. That rifle was in the mid to upper 9 lbs range so have to take that into the equation. Rounds in these rifles were all factory at 180 grain in the 300 wm, 285 in the 9.3x62, and 300 grain in the 375 H&H.

Fastrig I have to agree with you on the push vs quick slap. My brother had a 300 rum at one time we loaded 220 grain bullets to the max with RL33. And I think the extremely sharp recoil of that was worse than my 416 taylor improved. I was not a fan of that hot loaded 300 rum at all.

 

[Chago]

Just get a muzzle brake and there all a 2.

Watch everyone's heads explode now

 

[Philip Glass]

I began pursuing bigger calibers as a person who thought he was recoil sensitive. Back when I was in high school my Dad bought me a .30-06 and 180gr bullets that really hammered me. I soon switched to 150gr and all was well!
Fast forward to today and the Big 5 came on my radar. I bought a .375 Ruger and began shooting with the muzzle brake. Then I bought the .416 Ruger and eventually my .470. It was a progression of getting used to and finding out how much recoil I could take. Multiple car wrecks from my younger years (none my fault!) have left me with neck problems. Even a day of sporting clays with a 12g O/U can be a problem for me sadly. (If I’d just use the lighter loads!)
The .470 is tough for me. I’d say about 6 shots a day is my limit. I’ve had Safari Arms load me some reduced recoil loads to enjoy shooting at my range a bit more.
I’ve had gunsmiths put Edwards recoil reducers in most all of my guns and I am a true believer in them.
.470 10
.416 8
.375 5
.300 3

I’m so glad I didn’t buy a .500!

Philip

 

[RayAtkinson]

Recoil is subjective to the shooter, everyone feels different...You can use all the designs and fit to reduce recoil and I see that as mostly sales candy, I was in the booking business for 40 plus years and I shot the 470, 505, 458 Lott and during the warm months and hunting season in Africa I had no probem with the recoil of any of these big boomers, and I shot a lot...During the winter months in Idaho I didn't shoot much then when is was about time to hit the road to Africa, Alaska, the recoil from the same rifles about ripped my head off, I had to really get back in recoil shape, and it was hard to do every year, so if you intend to shoot big bores, shoot them from time to time year around, like I said recoil is sugjective to the shooter and his circumstances. Hope this helps it took me a long time to figure it out.

I believe in muzzle brakes, I use them on some guns to work up loads, sight in the rifle, for all bench shooting, sometimes I take them off while hunting but as I age I notice I tend to keep them on..I figure the good Lord gave the nay sayers the opertunity to hunt with someone else or use those God given fingers to stick in their ears!