Compare Africa Species to America's Species..

[Diamondhitch]

This is something that challenged me when i did the research to get the sizes, there are so many variations of the same species.... what would you suggest, my thoughts are to use the most common one of the selection instead of adding every single variation.
my focus is on the North American Species more specifically the species US hunter would commonly hunt as that is the species they would be most familiar with..

Please forgive me for making assumptions, i am not at all familiar with your species, and i might make assumptions which are incorrect.. Please help me on the right way if this is the case..

The main idea of chart is to create a visual reference for the first time hunter.. they are usually very uncertain
about the species and what the resemble..
i have heard it a few times that a client is stunned that the animal is so much bigger, or they do not want to shoot the animal because it is smaller than they expected it to be.. this might not be very accurate but i think it relates to perceptions, everything in Africa is bigger.. then reality sets in...

I have this firm believe that a educated client is a good client, and this i where i want to go, create graphics and images to help people relate or compare..

Thank you for your advice, i will find a way to use your suggestions..

Im not sure what to suggest. Average of all sub-species is probably a good way to go. Or as you say, the most common of each is a good way as well. Plains Bison, Canada Moose, Rocky Mountain Elk, Quebec/Labrador Caribou, Whitetail, Pronghorn, Red fox would be my suggestions for NA animals and add Steinbok to Africa, that should cover the full size range on both sides. Brickburn had a good point about Bison and since Mulies and Whitetail are almost identical for size anyway I would swap Mulie for Bison.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Diamondhitch]

Almost forgot. Since Gemsbok and Waterbuck are almost identical size amybe swap Waterbuck for Impala or something similar.

 

[Diamondhitch]

The strange thing about America is we have a very diverce group of animals. Strange that as I am wrighting this more just keep poping up in my head. I just never realized it or thought about it. Grizzly bear/brown bear, polar bear(can't really hunt anymore, but thats a diff thread discussion), black bear, moose(5 sub spiecies I think), caribou(3 sub species I think), elk(don't know about these subspecies), mule deer, whitetail deer, blacktail deer, coues deer, sheep(not sure about these subspecies either), various pigs(not native) wolf, coyote, fox, mountain lion, bob cat. Those are the large to midsized game and preditors I can think of. More smaller game I won't mention. And I could be missing something.

Depending who you talk to the number of sub species varies alot. SCI recocnizes alot more than biologists. As far as I know the following is a full list of everything the biologists recocnize (minus anything I may have missed).

Whitetail deer, Coues Deer, Rocky Mountain Mule deer, Desert Mule deer, Sitka Blacktail deer, Columbia blacktail deer. (I beleive Carmen mountain whitetail deer have been found to be genticaly distinct as well).
Alaska/Yukon moose, Canada moose, Shiras moose.
Rocky mountain elk, Roosevelt elk, Tule elk, Manitoban elk (I beleive these are classified as a sub-species please correct me if I am wrong).
Alaska barrenground caribou, Central canada barrenground caribou, Mountain caribou, Quebec/Labrador caribou, Woodland caribou, Arctic island Caribou.
Muskox.
Plains Bison, Wood bison.
Pronghorn Antelope.
Rocky mountain bighorn sheep, Desert bighorn sheep, Nelsons bighorn sheep, California Bighorn sheep, Stone sheep, Dall sheep. (before anyone comments, Fannin sheep are simply a light color variation of Stone sheep)
Mountain goat
Brown bear, Polar bear, Black bear, Kermodie bear, Grizzly bear.
Timber (gray) wolf, Red wolf, Coyote, Red fox, Gray fox.
Cougar, Lynx, Bobcat.
Pacific Walrus, Atlantic Walrus.

I am sure I have missed something here but you get the jist.

 

[MarcelV]

Forgot about bison and pronghorn. As far as what is common in both America.....that's tuff. What is common for me here in Ohio is totally different than what is common in Washington state, and they are different than Colorado. Every area is different. There should be some animal in your chart that no matter where you come from someone could relate to an animal on the chart. You could just make a massive chart with all the animals on the planet while your at it!

Then we will call it a book

 

[MarcelV]

Depending who you talk to the number of sub species varies alot. SCI recocnizes alot more than biologists. As far as I know the following is a full list of everything the biologists recocnize (minus anything I may have missed).

Whitetail deer, Coues Deer, Rocky Mountain Mule deer, Desert Mule deer, Sitka Blacktail deer, Columbia blacktail deer. (I beleive Carmen mountain whitetail deer have been found to be genticaly distinct as well).
Alaska/Yukon moose, Canada moose, Shiras moose.
Rocky mountain elk, Roosevelt elk, Tule elk, Manitoban elk (I beleive these are classified as a sub-species please correct me if I am wrong).
Alaska barrenground caribou, Central canada barrenground caribou, Mountain caribou, Quebec/Labrador caribou, Woodland caribou, Arctic island Caribou.
Muskox.
Plains Bison, Wood bison.
Pronghorn Antelope.
Rocky mountain bighorn sheep, Desert bighorn sheep, Nelsons bighorn sheep, California Bighorn sheep, Stone sheep, Dall sheep. (before anyone comments, Fannin sheep are simply a light color variation of Stone sheep)
Mountain goat
Brown bear, Polar bear, Black bear, Kermodie bear, Grizzly bear.
Timber (gray) wolf, Red wolf, Coyote, Red fox, Gray fox.
Cougar, Lynx, Bobcat.
Pacific Walrus, Atlantic Walrus.

I am sure I have missed something here but you get the jist.

WOW, i never realized there is so many species, i knew of only 5 or 6, Thank you for the information..

 

[ThomasBeaham]

Let's not forget Jaguar, Brocket Deer, and the Peccary.:biggrin2:

 

[Ole Bally]

Good job! Didn't realize White tail got so big! Although I am told different states and areas within those states can produce bigger or smaller animals based on genetics and food availability!
When hunting with bow hunt clients here in Zim, The clients would often miss real easy shots (close shots on big animals) and when one questioned them, generally they had only shot deer back home and thus were accustomed to using the 'gap' system of judging distance!
The other thing I noted was that unless very specifically coached (continuously) they would tend to place the arrow (or bullet) too far back which'd result in gut shots! So our shot placement guides are also an invaluable tool as long as the person pays attention to the vitals!

 

[MarcelV]

HI Gents, apologies for not giving feedback, i have been busy the past few weeks, i am busy updating and making the suggested changes.

I will upload an updated version soon..

Marcel

 

[BRICKBURN]

Look forward to seeing the latest version.

 

[Rustie]

What about the Lord derby Eland and Okapi? Surely they need to be on the list and also the Hartbeest. Then there is also the Mountain Nyala in Etheopia. What about the wild pigs in Africa compared to the ones in America....bushpig, warthog?

 

[Ole Bally]

What about the Lord derby Eland and Okapi? Surely they need to be on the list and also the Hartbeest. Then there is also the Mountain Nyala in Etheopia. What about the wild pigs in Africa compared to the ones in America....bushpig, warthog?

Hey Rustie, don't you reckon we should keep this simple to common species perhaps? The pigs are all pretty much the same size for shooting purposes....Ethiopian Mountain Nyala are as rare as straight politicians!
Just saying!

 

[Diamondhitch]

When hunting with bow hunt clients here in Zim, The clients would often miss real easy shots (close shots on big animals) and when one questioned them, generally they had only shot deer back home and thus were accustomed to using the 'gap' system of judging distance!
The other thing I noted was that unless very specifically coached (continuously) they would tend to place the arrow (or bullet) too far back which'd result in gut shots! So our shot placement guides are also an invaluable tool as long as the person pays attention to the vitals!

I have never been fond of the gap system and I dont know anyone who uses it, in fact I dont really know how I judge range. A number just pops into my head and I trust my gut and am usually close, then back that with a rangefinder if I have time. The biggest thing I see here as far as range estimation is that you dont hear nearly as many people bragging of 500yd shots anymore since rangefinders became popular. Now those 300yd shots that used to be 500 are just 300, still a good shot but not nearly as far as people used to think.

Without rangefinders most people I have hunted with including myself seem to have a harder time judging a small animal like a Pronghorn or coyote, which are usualy grossly overestimated.

As far as shooting too far back, our game definitely has much bigger lungs than African game, which certainly does not seem to make them any tougher though. I shot my Hartebeest on a quick instinctive shot (just behind the front leg) that would have seen a Whitetail piled up in short order but The Hartebeest sucked it up and we never did find it.

 

[Ole Bally]

Diamondhead, that gap system seems to have faded with laser range finders hitting the market now!

I always attributed the african critters being 'tougher to kill' being due to the fact that they are so predated on day in and day out. One sees horrific wounds on animals like Zebra where they've been attacked by Lion or Hyena and they just go about life as normal! I have seen a gut shot Impala run away, step on the entrails, pull it ALL out and still keep running for a mile or so!
I have no experience on US animals at all so I cannot comment on their 'toughness'.
But I reckon it's all just about shot placement at the end of the day. A shot behind the front leg on our critters is pretty much a gut shot. But so difficult to recover them!

How about this too?..... there's a space in the plural cavity above the lungs but below the spine where there's nothing! Like a vacuum space where if you put a bullet into it especially with Eland....they just go and more often than not you don't find them! Because it's so high up, there's no blood trail and if the animal happened to shift or move in the instant before the shot, the skin closes the entry hole up. Weird!
I never could back this up with medical fact but I've sure seen it happen!

 

[enysse]

Diamondhitch, it all depends on the type of bullets you use and where that exact bullet hit on that animal. You would be damned surprised how little some bullets do on damage to a animal. If you hit them in a special spot they keep on running! Archery hunting is worse. With sharp broadheads a animal can lay down and heal a bad shot.

You are a good hunter and bad luck hit you...it's hit me too.

And I was LMAO about your distance comments on shots taken! Most people can't hit the broad side of a barn at 300 yds!!!!

 

[BRICKBURN]

But I reckon it's all just about shot placement at the end of the day.

Can't agree more. The obvious goal for all of us and this exercise in particular.

The range finder stops all the animal size guessing.
You still have to make yourself point those cross hairs into the right place.

We just happen to have a few more inches behind the leg for leeway here on North American game. (for what ever reason)

I found out during my hunts that I am a meat hunter first.
It was very hard for me to push that vertical cross hair forward into that shoulder meat and pull the trigger.
I could not make myself shoot my Eland in the steaks to finish him off even though he already had two through the boiler room.
(Makes for a longer tracking job!)

Next time I'll practice heart shots and shooting through the shoulder.

 

[Diamondhitch]

I found out during my hunts that I am a meat hunter first.
It was very hard for me to push that vertical cross hair forward into that shoulder meat and pull the trigger.
I could not make myself shoot my Eland in the steaks to finish him off even though he already had two through the boiler room.
(Makes for a longer tracking job!)

Next time I'll practice heart shots and shooting through the shoulder.

Try hunting like a taxidermist, Main objective - no holes in that short haired cape to sew! LOL I am like you though I need to concentrate on moving my shots forward instead of always slipping them in just behind the front leg.

Old Bally - Our game also has the same issues with the plural space. On full inhalation the lungs fill it but at full exhalation it is at its widest. At any rate a bullet through it at the wrong moment has no affect.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Regarding shot placement, I've taken up the habit of also placing my shots (rifle that is) square on the shoulder for American game. Yes, it's forward a bit but not that much. And yes, it does some meat damage though I find it's not that bad, but I know that the animal will die quickly. All of my Coues deer here in AZ have just dropped straight down. When the retrieval amounts to 300-400 yards horizontally but equates to at least twice that by the time you drop down into then back up out of the canyon, this is much appreciated. I use Partitions on the bigger stuff and really it does not do anymore meat damage.

So when I went to Africa I found the shot placement to be no different than what I was used to.

 

[Taylor Cummings]

The only thing I can see having an issue with is the fact that North American species differ in size based on location of habitat. There are several hunting books out there that give precise size information. Also remember that even though an African species may be smaller than a North American Counter-Part African animals have a nasty tendancy to not die right out, even with proper shot placement.

God Speed & Good Hunting

 

[MarcelV]

This especially makes life challenging for me as i do not know your species and there is allot of variations in a single species..

But i tried, lets see

The only thing I can see having an issue with is the fact that North American species differ in size based on location of habitat. There are several hunting books out there that give precise size information. Also remember that even though an African species may be smaller than a North American Counter-Part African animals have a nasty tendancy to not die right out, even with proper shot placement.

God Speed & Good Hunting

 

[MarcelV]

Well Finally an update, i tried to consider all the suggestion in this forum, but i think there is limitations as well,
i expanded the comparison chart to accommodate more species is NA and Africa, i hope you like the changes.

Any comments and suggestions to improve it is welcome, what i did was to try and standardize to a single source
of data, not always possible but at least i got close..
i used as much as i could from Big Game Hunting Records - Safari Club International Online Record Book as reference..

Here it is...
What do you think

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