Case separation

[rookhawk]

I'm talking on the phone right now with the owner of larrywillis.com.
Larry sold the company 5 years ago. They are in full production and still in business.

 

[rookhawk]

I just got off the phone. I ordered a collet die for myself to keep the 100+ 375HH variant cases in good condition.

 

[358 Norma]

Incipient case head separation can be a problem if you:

A.) Reuse your brass A LOT

B.) Full length size frequently, rather than setting your shoulder so you get to headspace in a second location, preventing stretch originating at the web.

C.) You own a .375HH or any of its child cartridges.

Allow me to explain point C because its an obscure point most are unaware. The 375HH headspaces on its magnum belt. With firing, your cases bloat, getting fatter and fatter and your die can never push them back to shape, nor can the chamber because you're not getting the body of the case into full contact with the chamber on a 375HH family case.

Solution to point C above? This dude invented a collet sizing die for 375HH family of cartridges. This will put your case back to factory specs in a way that no standard die set can accomplish: https://www.larrywillis.com/

The manufacturer states: "This ONE die and collet is universal and works on ALL of the popular belted magnum calibers including: .257 Weatherby Magnum, 6.5 Remington Magnum, .264 Winchester Magnum, .270 Weatherby Magnum, 7 x 61 Sharpe & Hart, 7mm Remington Magnum, 7mm Weatherby Magnum, 7mm STW, .300 H&H Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum, .300 Weatherby Magnum, .308 Norma Magnum, 8mm Remington Magnum, .338 Winchester Magnum, .340 Weatherby Magnum, .350 Remington Magnum, .358 Norma Magnum, .375 H&H Magnum, .416 Remington Magnum, .458 Winchester Magnum, .458 Lott Magnum and several belted wildcat cartridges. There are no extra collets to buy when resizing different calibers. The U.S. Secret Service was one of our first cusputtomers to purchase this product."

I DO NOT size any magnum cases without using this die! Saves me a lot of money on brass, with that said I only hunt with new or once fired brass!

 

[30.06king]

Any brass not sized for correct headspace can eventually succumb to head separation. The number of firings before this occurs is relative to several factors of which brass quality is one. The brass I found most easily failing in this respect is Hornady. Not saying I have used absolutely every brass brand available as I could choose only from supplies available in New Zealand and Hornady is available almost everywhere and usually among the most reasonably priced. My belief is that these days Hornady uses brass of compromised quality, related probably to budgetary restrictions. I think in earlier times they used better brass.
Personally, whenever on the hill the only handloaded brass in any of my rifles is Norma and it may have been reloaded multiple times. Same with my 375 H&H on Africa hunts. Just cycle all rounds taken on a hunt through the action first to avoid any question of field reliability.

 

[AimSmall]

Earlier this year, I was back in Africa with my .375 H&H magnum, and a new recipe including Hornady cases, RWS 5333 primers, Reload Swiss 60 Powder and Degol (Lion Load & Starkmantel) 350 gr bullets.
The accuracy was very good in my rifle and the effectiveness on games too.

One day, I was following a wounded eland with a tracker. The animal had been shot the day before, just before dusk and one of its shoulder was broken. In the sand, we saw that the animal dragged its right front leg and we caught up with it really quickly !
In a little gap, I was able to see its head and neck. I took a shot and I dropped it.

My rifle is a Blaser R93, and I tend to reload it really quickly. The bolt is so smooth and having used this rifle in driven hunt to get used to it, it became a muscle memory to handle his bottle.
But this time, I felt something strange in my handle. The bolt was stuck and impossible to feed a new round into the chamber.
View attachment 695599
I was surprised, because I'm used to cycling all my ammunitions after the reloading process, to be sure they feed flawlessly.

I pulled the bolt back, and what a surprise to extract my cartridge stuck in the front part of the case that I fired just before.
View attachment 695600View attachment 695601View attachment 695602
That is my first case separation. I didn't recover the rear part of my case and when I shot, I didn't notice anything strange. The two little holes milled in the barrel at the level of the cartridge belt probably did their job.

I checked others rounds I shot during that trip, and I only found one that has a little cracked a bit above the belt.

Having a huge doubt, I went to the shooting range back at home and I fired several ammunitions on target, and some show the same problem.
View attachment 695603

I'm using Hornady cases because they are the easiest to get where I am, and not too expensive. But you get what you pay for !

These cases were not used a lot, maybe 3 times, and even, I make a minimum shoulder bump. However, it seems they couldn't resist a long time.
Earlier this year, I saw a video on youtube where Desert dog outdoors said Hornady cases were crappy.
I started to use Hornady cases with my .458 Lott and I have never had any issue. Here is why, I started to use them in .375 H&H magnum. But, I think I will switch to Norma cases now.

Have you already had such problem ?

You note a "new recipe" on this trip. How many grains of Reload Swiss 60 were you using?

 

[Kevin375]

You note a "new recipe" on this trip. How many grains of Reload Swiss 60 were you using?

71 gr of Reload Swiss 60
My case capacity (fired) is 96.4 gr of H20.
COAL : 3.564'', then I can crimp in the cannelure.

Quickload is a bit generous this time :
Theory : 2246 f/s
Practice : ~ 2310 f/s with the Starkmantel bullets. The Lion Load's are slightly slower : ~ 2291 f/s, because they are a bit shorter. Same point of impact and a good accuracy : 1 MOA and even a bit less with the Lion Load's.
This recipe is not at its maximum and there is still a good margin of safety.

 

[uplander01]

You may want to check you rifles chamber for a gas check ring. Case head separations can ring the chamber and the problem will get worse. I have a 338 being re-barreled right now due to this exact problem. It has become standard for me to examine the inside of the brass after cleaning with either the paper clip technique or a wood knitting needle. Once that ring starts to develop inside the case, toss it

 

[rdog]

Earlier this year, I was back in Africa with my .375 H&H magnum, and a new recipe including Hornady cases, RWS 5333 primers, Reload Swiss 60 Powder and Degol (Lion Load & Starkmantel) 350 gr bullets.
The accuracy was very good in my rifle and the effectiveness on games too.

One day, I was following a wounded eland with a tracker. The animal had been shot the day before, just before dusk and one of its shoulder was broken. In the sand, we saw that the animal dragged its right front leg and we caught up with it really quickly !
In a little gap, I was able to see its head and neck. I took a shot and I dropped it.

My rifle is a Blaser R93, and I tend to reload it really quickly. The bolt is so smooth and having used this rifle in driven hunt to get used to it, it became a muscle memory to handle his bottle.
But this time, I felt something strange in my handle. The bolt was stuck and impossible to feed a new round into the chamber.
View attachment 695599
I was surprised, because I'm used to cycling all my ammunitions after the reloading process, to be sure they feed flawlessly.

I pulled the bolt back, and what a surprise to extract my cartridge stuck in the front part of the case that I fired just before.
View attachment 695600View attachment 695601View attachment 695602
That is my first case separation. I didn't recover the rear part of my case and when I shot, I didn't notice anything strange. The two little holes milled in the barrel at the level of the cartridge belt probably did their job.

I checked others rounds I shot during that trip, and I only found one that has a little cracked a bit above the belt.

Having a huge doubt, I went to the shooting range back at home and I fired several ammunitions on target, and some show the same problem.
View attachment 695603

I'm using Hornady cases because they are the easiest to get where I am, and not too expensive. But you get what you pay for !

These cases were not used a lot, maybe 3 times, and even, I make a minimum shoulder bump. However, it seems they couldn't resist a long time.
Earlier this year, I saw a video on youtube where Desert dog outdoors said Hornady cases were crappy.
I started to use Hornady cases with my .458 Lott and I have never had any issue. Here is why, I started to use them in .375 H&H magnum. But, I think I will switch to Norma cases now.

Have you already had such problem ?

Is a head space issue, try adjusting the sizing die up a little in the press as to not set the shoulder back . Through the rest of the cases away as they will separate also.

 

[deewayne2003]

I'm talking on the phone right now with the owner of larrywillis.com.
Larry sold the company 5 years ago. They are in full production and still in business.

@rookhawk thank you for clarifying- I just ordered one myself.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Earlier this year, I was back in Africa with my .375 H&H magnum, and a new recipe including Hornady cases, RWS 5333 primers, Reload Swiss 60 Powder and Degol (Lion Load & Starkmantel) 350 gr bullets.
The accuracy was very good in my rifle and the effectiveness on games too.

One day, I was following a wounded eland with a tracker. The animal had been shot the day before, just before dusk and one of its shoulder was broken. In the sand, we saw that the animal dragged its right front leg and we caught up with it really quickly !
In a little gap, I was able to see its head and neck. I took a shot and I dropped it.

My rifle is a Blaser R93, and I tend to reload it really quickly. The bolt is so smooth and having used this rifle in driven hunt to get used to it, it became a muscle memory to handle his bottle.
But this time, I felt something strange in my handle. The bolt was stuck and impossible to feed a new round into the chamber.
View attachment 695599
I was surprised, because I'm used to cycling all my ammunitions after the reloading process, to be sure they feed flawlessly.

I pulled the bolt back, and what a surprise to extract my cartridge stuck in the front part of the case that I fired just before.
View attachment 695600View attachment 695601View attachment 695602
That is my first case separation. I didn't recover the rear part of my case and when I shot, I didn't notice anything strange. The two little holes milled in the barrel at the level of the cartridge belt probably did their job.

I checked others rounds I shot during that trip, and I only found one that has a little cracked a bit above the belt.

Having a huge doubt, I went to the shooting range back at home and I fired several ammunitions on target, and some show the same problem.
View attachment 695603

I'm using Hornady cases because they are the easiest to get where I am, and not too expensive. But you get what you pay for !

These cases were not used a lot, maybe 3 times, and even, I make a minimum shoulder bump. However, it seems they couldn't resist a long time.
Earlier this year, I saw a video on youtube where Desert dog outdoors said Hornady cases were crappy.
I started to use Hornady cases with my .458 Lott and I have never had any issue. Here is why, I started to use them in .375 H&H magnum. But, I think I will switch to Norma cases now.

Have you already had such problem ?

@Kevin375
If you are reloading it sounds like you are full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back and this is causing the case to headspace on the belt. This is a common problem with belted magnum cases.
Belted cases should be sized the same as rimless cases using the datum line NOT the belt. Failing to do this will result in incipient sase head seperation in as little as 2-3 reloads.
To avoid this size all cases to be a very, very slight crush fit in the chamber. This will help avoid case seperation.
Bob

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Kevin375
If you are reloading it sounds like you are full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back and this is causing the case to headspace on the belt. This is a common problem with belted magnum cases.
Belted cases should be sized the same as rimless cases using the datum line NOT the belt. Failing to do this will result in incipient sase head seperation in as little as 2-3 reloads.
To avoid this size all cases to be a very, very slight crush fit in the chamber. This will help avoid case seperation.
Bob

For my 404 the die must be set to very, very, VERY light crush fit in the chamber or the cartridges won't snap over. That was the advantage to belt. No more worries about sloping shoulder cartridges (like 404) pushing ahead into the chamber when dropped in during a buffalo charge. Funny thing is most of those belted cartridges have radically sharp shoulders (e.g. Weatherby) so no worries about them climbing too far into the chamber anyway.

I only neck size because I always shoot all cartridges in the same gun. But I do test cycle each one before putting them back in the box. Once in a while I'll get one that is a bit tight. Pound out the bullet and try sizing it again. If still too tight, I'll set it aside for some rainy day when the die is reset to full length for a batch of them. This has radically reduced the amount of brass trimmed from cases. At first I thought something was wrong. Exactly the opposite! If you're trimming a lot of brass every session, something is indeed wrong.

Edit: Another trick I learned about snap over woes with 404. I built mine on a standard 8mm Mauser action. That requires opening the bolt face significantly. And of course similarly shrinking the extractor claw face. The ideal claw fit is supposed to be where it will just barely hold a loaded cartridge on bolt face when bolt is removed. But I was still not getting consistent snap over with 404 tapered shoulder. Finally I relieved some of the extractor spring tension (reshaping the extractor spring and/or trimming the face of extractor pivot). That did the trick. Also, the rims now jump onto the bolt face very nicely. Don't remove too much tension or extractor will jump off the rim when trying to extract a fired case. Turns out much of my woes were due to crappy RWS brass with rims of inconsistent thickness. Everything has to be just right for 404. Factory machining tolerances can be fairly sloppy for belted cartridge guns. Cheaper to make.

 

[Kevin375]

If you are reloading it sounds like you are full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back and this is causing the case to headspace on the belt. This is a common problem with belted magnum cases.
Belted cases should be sized the same as rimless cases using the datum line NOT the belt. Failing to do this will result in incipient sase head seperation in as little as 2-3 reloads.
To avoid this size all cases to be a very, very slight crush fit in the chamber. This will help avoid case seperation.

With a classic bolt action, it is indeed possible to do that but with a Blaser and its straight pull action, you have to full lenght resize your cases. If not, there is a high risk to hear just "click", because the bolt is not fully closed and the fire pin will not strike the primer.
That's why I take care to my cases when I resize them. I don't use the classic : "Put the shell holder in contact to the dies and add 1/4 turn". With my belted calibers and the rimmed .30 R Blaser, I resize just enough with a minimum shoulder bump ( very often -0.002") like classic beltless calibers I'm used to reloading quite a bit : 6.5 Creedmoor, .338 Lapua magnum.
As I said, with the .300 Winchester magnum, that has a longer chamber, I have never had this problem.

You may want to check you rifles chamber for a gas check ring. Case head separations can ring the chamber and the problem will get worse. I have a 338 being re-barreled right now due to this exact problem. It has become standard for me to examine the inside of the brass after cleaning with either the paper clip technique or a wood knitting needle. Once that ring starts to develop inside the case, toss it

I'm very fortunate, the chamber was not damage.

 

[shootist~]

@Kevin375
If you are reloading it sounds like you are full length resizing and bumping the shoulder back and this is causing the case to headspace on the belt. This is a common problem with belted magnum cases.
Belted cases should be sized the same as rimless cases using the datum line NOT the belt. Failing to do this will result in incipient sase head seperation in as little as 2-3 reloads.
To avoid this size all cases to be a very, very slight crush fit in the chamber. This will help avoid case seperation.
Bob

It would be interesting to see what resizing to .003" at the shoulder plus the Larry Willis tool would do in the Blazer.

 

[FlyGuy]

1: Hornady make the worst belted magnum brass out there. The stuff is junk!
They’re usually way too short, so they stretch a mile on the first firing and the damage is done. Open the wallet and buy proper brass like Norma or RWS.
2: The Magnum swaging die from Innovative Technologies is a life saver for any reloader of belted magnums.
3: Once fired, use only your neck sizing die and the magnum swaging die.
Anneal often and only bump the shoulders back a microscopic amount if you get to a point that you have a tighter than normal fit in the chamber.
Even for a Blaser!

I’ve had upwards of 20 firings in Norma 300H&H brass before they were retired.
Another little trick is to use a mild load with the bullets seated into the lands for the fire forming loads.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Larry Willis collet dies are a must for belted magnum reloading! I highly recommend them.

@Pheroze
Lee do a pretty good collet die in a lot of calibers.
I use them for my 25, 222rem, 303brit and my sons 308.
They do a great job at a good price and will even make them for custom cartridges.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

1: Hornady make the worst belted magnum brass out there. The stuff is junk!
They’re usually way too short, so they stretch a mile on the first firing and the damage is done. Open the wallet and buy proper brass like Norma or RWS.
2: The Magnum swaging die from Innovative Technologies is a life saver for any reloader of belted magnums.
3: Once fired, use only your neck sizing die and the magnum swaging die.
Anneal often and only bump the shoulders back a microscopic amount if you get to a point that you have a tighter than normal fit in the chamber.
Even for a Blaser!

I’ve had upwards of 20 firings in Norma 300H&H brass before they were retired.
Another little trick is to use a mild load with the bullets seated into the lands for the fire forming loads.

@FlyGuy
Hornady brass may be junk in magnum cals, I don't know as I haven't got any magnums
But
In 303 they make bloody good cases that I use in my sons 25-303 wild cat. These cases have been necked down, blown out and shoulders moved forward. I get around a 3% failure rate when fire forming but formed cases have lasted up to 8 reloads so far.
For my sons 308 I use federal premium brass and all my other rifles rum Remington brass only.
I would rate Hornady brass I use as equal to any other brand I use.
Bob

 

[FlyGuy]

@FlyGuy
Hornady brass may be junk in magnum cals, I don't know as I haven't got any magnums
But
In 303 they make bloody good cases that I use in my sons 25-303 wild cat. These cases have been necked down, blown out and shoulders moved forward. I get around a 3% failure rate when fire forming but formed cases have lasted up to 8 reloads so far.
For my sons 308 I use federal premium brass and all my other rifles rum Remington brass only.
I would rate Hornady brass I use as equal to any other brand I use.
Bob

Hi Bob.

As mentioned in words 5-7 in my first sentence, I was indeed referring to their Belted Magnum Brass. With careful loading, I get about 4 firings out of their 300 H&H brass, compared to 15+ with Norma.
I have zero experience with their standard cartridge brass, as I only run Norma, Lapua, RWS or Winchester (the old stuff) in my own rifles. A friend of mine seems happy with his Hornady 6.5 CM brass.
The 25-303 sounds interesting... Here in SA we have our own .303 wildcat called the 6mm Musgrave.