Can a 9.3x74r achieve 5400 joules?

[Mountaineer]

I saw a 9.3x74r double rifle that caught my attention. I mostly hunt in Namibia which has a 5400 joules minimum for big game. In reviewing load it appears it comes up a little. Has anyone achieved this minimum? Thanks

 

[odonata]

I only have commercial 9.3x74r ammo & my hottest RWS load only achieves 4660j.

This thread might be of interest:

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Thread '9,3 mm – A Love Affair'

Jun 5, 2020

9,3 mm – A love affair

My love affair with the 9,3 mm started years ago. I was looking for a double rifle, that had to be good for both driven hunt and stalking, and my choice was the old venerable 9,3x74R.

I immediately started handloading this fine caliber with N202 powder, obtaining good accuracy and outstanding terminal effects on big game. Season after season i learned how effective was the old German doctrine: heavy soft point bullets at mild velocity equals complete penetration, massive wound and game on the ground. And this at its best in woods.

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[grand veneur]

I saw a 9.3x74r double rifle that caught my attention. I mostly hunt in Namibia which has a 5400 joules minimum for big game. In reviewing load it appears it comes up a little. Has anyone achieved this minimum? Thanks

It does not achieve 5000 Joules, but it has about the same ballistic values as the cartridge 9,3x62, so that it can theoretically also be used for hunting big game where the latter is permitted. The cartridge 9,3x74R would not be my first choice for hunting big game, despite it I shot three buffaloes with it, but if 5400 joules is the lower limit, something like that does not be allowed in Namibia. As always, if you want to use for big game hunting cartridges at the lower limit, the safest option is to use cartridges like the 9,3x64 Brenneke or 375 H&H Magnum.

 

[sgt_zim]

It does not achieve 5000 Joules, but it has about the same ballistic values as the cartridge 9,3x62, so that it can theoretically also be used for hunting big game where the latter is permitted. The cartridge 9,3x74R would not be my first choice for hunting big game, despite it I shot three buffaloes with it, but if 5400 joules is the lower limit, something like that does not be allowed in Namibia. As always, if you want to use for big game hunting cartridges at the lower limit, the safest option is to use cartridges like the 9,3x64 Brenneke or 375 H&H Magnum.

Unless I am much mistaken, 9.3x62 was developed at a time when RN bullets were preferred. The firing chambers were cut to be able to handle a relatively untapered ogive, and SAAMI spec is for a COAL of 3.291". Freebore/leade are exceedingly long in both of the 9.3x62 I have - a Zastava and a Sauer.

With modern spitzers and their long, tapered ogives, you can often measure a bullet seated on the lands at around 3.37" or 3.38", meaning COAL can go out to around 3.34 or 3.35. I went with 3.325 for A Frames, and I'm getting 2475 fps with that, no sticky bolt, no flattened primers, etc. That's 5300 Joules. Still a skosh short of 5400, but a 300 gr 375 H&H at a "mere" 2400 fps also falls short of 5400 Joules.

I'm reasonably confident if I had kept playing at LD for my 9.3x62, I probably could have gotten to 2520 fps or so (would be just over 5400 Joules). With a top end pressure of about 50K PSI, you just can't get there with a 9.3x74, though I don't believe it matters much

If I understand Jerome's write-up on energy "requirements" in Namibia, they're more along the lines of suggestions.

 

[grand veneur]

All of these cartridges caliber 9,3mm and also the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum were not designed initially for hunting big and dangerous game. At that time, the big and dangerous game was primarily shot with DR caliber 450 NE upwards. Over time it only became clear that these smaller cartridges could also be used to shoot big game to a limited extent. The discussion about their use for hunting big and dangerous game continues nowadays, which is good to read on the Forum.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

It is mute for Namibia anyway because if I am not mistaken you also have a minimum 375 calibre requirement for DG.
And the OP is talking of a double, which will need the loads to regulate. So all in all, I would say the answer is a flat no.

 

[sgt_zim]

It is mute for Namibia anyway because if I am not mistaken you also have a minimum 375 calibre requirement for DG.
And the OP is talking of a double, which will need the loads to regulate. So all in all, I would say the answer is a flat no.

Unless my memory has failed, Jerome has stated more than once that this isn't binding as it isn't "law."

 

[grand veneur]

Probably just a recommendation.

The cartridges 9,3x74R and 9,3x62 are good cartridges, but we use them in my countries for much smaller game species that big game. A cartridge like the 9,3x64 Brenneke is more suitable for big game hunting, although I have only shot wild boars, Elk's and Moose's with this cartridge.

 

[sgt_zim]

Probably just a recommendation.

The cartridges 9,3x74R and 9,3x62 are good cartridges, but we use them in my countries for much smaller game species that big game. A cartridge like the 9,3x64 Brenneke is more suitable for big game hunting, although I have only shot wild boars, Elk's and Moose's with this cartridge.

More 1-shot kills on cape buffalo with 375 H&H and 9.3x62 than all other cartridges combined, or so I've read. It makes good sense - anyone can learn to handle the 35 - 40 ft lbs of recoil from those cartridges, and be more accurate with them.

While I only have 1 cape buffalo to my credit, she went down with a single shot from my 9.3x62 - ran 20 or 30 yards, crashed, and gave her death bellow within a few seconds of having been shot. Appropriate shot angles and good bullets are very important with an x62, but they are up to the task for buff.

 

[grand veneur]

They are only up to a limited extent for this tasks. I did not read anything about it but practiced. I shot several buffaloes myself with various cartridges and accompanied some of buffalo hunts where hunters shot it above all with smaller calibers. Big bores work better.

 

[DocHolliday]

For 286 gr bullets velocity will need to be >2410 fps to break 5000j.
For 300gr bullets velocity will need to be >2353 fps to break 5000j.


Last time I looked Namibia did NOT have a .375 caliber restriction.

 

[grand veneur]

That's a good thing, because if bigger calibers were required, there would not be so many big game hunters.

 

[WAB]

All of these cartridges caliber 9,3mm and also the cartridge 375 H&H Magnum were not designed initially for hunting big and dangerous game. At that time, the big and dangerous game was primarily shot with DR caliber 450 NE upwards. Over time it only became clear that these smaller cartridges could also be used to shoot big game to a limited extent. The discussion about their use for hunting big and dangerous game continues nowadays, which is good to read on the Forum.

Actually the 9.3x62 was designed by Otto Bock to offer an economic cartridge for use in standard ‘98 actions. As I understand it, a key driver was the needs of German farmers in East African settlements. As such, it was definitely intended to be capable of taking the largest of game.

 

[grand veneur]

Actually the 9.3x62 was designed by Otto Bock to offer an economic cartridge for use in standard ‘98 actions. As I understand it, a key driver was the needs of German farmers in East African settlements. As such, it was definitely intended to be capable of taking the largest of game.

It is written again and again that the 9.3x62 cartridge was designed for Africa. It is certain that many things can no longer be verified, but as far as I know, this cartridge and also the cartridge 10,75x68 were designed at that time primarily for shooting heavy game species in the east of the German Empire, meaning Carpathian red deers, moose's and bears. These cartridges were certainly of use to the German farmers in Africa, but mainly as meat getter by shooting PG and hardly for big game hunting. Even back then, big game hunting was not very cheap and was not accessible to everyone. I saw a price list of licenses for big game hunting in Deutsch-Südwestafrika, very expensive for that time. I also own hunting magazines from before the WWI that clearly report on all this. German cartridges that were primarily designed for big game hunting are the 11,2x72 Schüler and later the 12,7x70 Schüler. The cartridge 9,3x64 Brenneke was also not first designed for this purpose.

 

[sgt_zim]

It is written again and again that the 9.3x62 cartridge was designed for Africa. It is certain that many things can no longer be verified, but as far as I know, this cartridge and also the cartridge 10,75x68 were designed at that time primarily for shooting heavy game species in the east of the German Empire, meaning Carpathian red deers, moose's and bears. These cartridges were certainly of use to the German farmers in Africa, but mainly as meat getter by shooting PG and hardly for big game hunting. Even back then, big game hunting was not very cheap and was not accessible to everyone. I saw a price list of licenses for big game hunting in Deutsch-Südwestafrika, very expensive for that time. I also own hunting magazines from before the WWI that clearly report on all this. German cartridges that were primarily designed for big game hunting are the 11,2x72 Schüler and later the 12,7x70 Schüler. The cartridge 9,3x64 Brenneke was also not first designed for this purpose.

We'll assume that's true.

Whatever Bock's intent, it was quickly and widely adopted by German colonists in Africa, used on all sorts of game quite effectively. There is a sound reason why its use is still widely permitted for DG - it just works. With modern powders (where MV of 2450 to 2500 is pretty easily achieved) and stoutly constructed bullets like Swift, Barnes, North Fork, Rhino, and Peregrine, it gives up very little ground (and no practical ground) to 375 H&H. And I dare say that if 1919 had seen a "Treaty of Berlin" rather than a Treaty of Versailles, "the old 9-3" would be the legal minimum everywhere.

 

[AZDAVE]

You can reach 5400 with both the x62 and x74 with judicious handloading. But saying that there are several problems as you are running at MAX pressures.

In the x74 your biggest problem is that the speeds will be a fair bit above what your rifle is regulated for and would be a worthless load that puts unnecessary strain on your double. In a ruger #1 it would be no problem other than short case life.

In the x62 with a longer throat I have loaded 286 gr at 2560fps with in safe load levels in MY rifle. But brass life is very short.

Have spoked with Dr Robertson on the subject of rifles at SCI last year. He stated that 2400fps with either the 9.3 or 375 is about the perfect speed to cleanly harvest buffalo with "PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT"

I would happily hunt buffalo where legal with my 9.3 double (It shoots to regulation with 286 and 300 gr bullets at 2380fps.

 

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for everyone’s input. You folks are a wealth of great knowledge!

 

[Grandpa Moose]

Holly cow I can get in excess of 5400 joules from my 8x68s but would not consider it a DG caliber but a solid heavy PG caliber

 

[grand veneur]

Holly cow I can get in excess of 5400 joules from my 8x68s but would not consider it a DG caliber but a solid heavy PG caliber

The joules are a theoretical value, what counts is the cross section and the penetration, where the design and impact velocity of a SP bullet are playing a very important role. That's why it is not in all cases the SP bullets with high energy that deliver the best results. It may be that when it comes to the use of FMJ bullets one can think a little differently, but nowadays SP bullets are mainly used, also for big game hunting, elephant ( so far ! ) excluded. The topic is about using the cartridge 9,3x74R for big game hunting and therefore selecting the right bullet is extremely important with such cartridges. In the classic concept, that I still often represent, whether some people like this or not, only FMJ bullets come into question by using smaller calibers for big game hunting. A slightly higher muzzle velocity and therefore more Joules are in this case better, but by using SP bullets you have to think a little differently. Mentioned in passing, I shot the buffaloes in Malaysia by using only FMJ bullets with the cartridge 9,3x74R.