Bullet suggestion for heart / lung shot on Elephant ?

[Riflecrank]

Michael458,
What did you do to get this on your last post above ?
"Last edited by a moderator: Yesterday at 1:42 AM"

That is another shocking picture of this Nosler brass solid:

Looks like a bent brass Round Nose or ogived FN
The Nosler solids I have seen lately are brass FNs with admittedly too small a meplat,
but not looking so much like an RN.

No Round Nose. No copper.
Use only brass FN solid in a rifle that will feed it, for elephant.
I am hoping for an elephant with a CEB 400-gr/.458 Safari Solid at 2500 fps MV from a .458 WIN MAG.
All else is twaddle for me after only two cape buffalo, two bison and three water buffalo ...
until that last water buffalo gets eaten.
Amen.

 

[Riflecrank]

Now comes the controversy over 400-gr versus 450-gr versus 500-gr
.458 brass FN solid for elephant.
Heh-heh-heh.

 

[Riflecrank]

Why not to use TSX on elephant:

 

[michael458]

Michael458,
What did you do to get this on your last post above ?
"Last edited by a moderator: Yesterday at 1:42 AM"

The photo was sent by a friend here on AH. He was forced to use Factory ammo last year for his buffalo hunt. This was Factory Federal Solids..... I call them Noslers, Trophy Bonded Solids..... meplat is way too small, causing instability, bullet turns just the slightest and hits bone or something turns into a banana. I just posted it like I normally would, so not sure what you might be asking?

Also, I notice I get lots of Edited By Moderators...... but I never see anything or notice anything changed or edited? Or could be I don't pay enough attention to posts after they are posted?

Now comes the controversy over 400-gr versus 450-gr versus 500-gr
.458 brass FN solid for elephant.
Heh-heh-heh.

Don't forget my little 325 #13, it is capable.......... And not only that, it has! There is a fellow here on AH, I believe he loads some sort of 458 double (not well versed on this) for either his father or other older gentleman, does not like recoil, loads the 325 #13 for and had taken elephant ++ with great success. Now I forget the entire story line, so forgive me, jest of the matter this guy uses the 325 #13 Solid on a regular basis, and has not come up "short"...... so to speak.

And do not forget my Son with the .474 caliber 350 #13 Solid and the elephant brain shot, side brain, complete penetration, exit........ elephant in the dirt..........

And of course this example that Shaun did on his trip years ago........

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank
Yes we all learn & still learning this side of the ditch & I’ll get to this asap along with the solids won’t do as much damage as a tsx textbook theory that a lot go off as I once did myself but testing in the odd critter lol has shown a few things that we need to understand before a blanket statement will hold water & youve honed in on it in the following & that’s

WHAT THAT PARTICULAR BULLET DOES AT THAT PARTICULAR IMPACT VELOCITY & RESISTANCE
Yep spot on sir

Holy cow ! Fordy is showing .510-caliber Hammer hollow points that pinched off the nose hole !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

And another set of .510-cal Hammer hollow points that fragmented and performed poorly !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

And a .375-cal Hammer hollowpoint that blew of the petals and then expanded the remnant "penetrator" at a slant !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

So bovine shoulder knuckles or humeri were involved in all of these ?

OK, Hammer's sulfurated copper is not so hard after all, I see.
Softer than brass and barely greater density.
Machines nicely though.
The petal blow-off must be more a function of hollowpoint design,
and I thought it was some brass-like similarity in fracturing.
Not so.
If Hammer got the news on those bullets, maybe some re-design was done.

GSC FN copper solids (570-gr/.510-cal) expand pretty severely on 50-gallon steel drums full of sand at 500 NE velocity, but have shot through elephants routinely.
I used it to penetrate a big bull bison from rump to exit at neck/throat, full body length, once while alive at 50 yards, and departing with a 570-gr Barnes XLC retained in the vitals from a broadside chest shot.
Both shots were at 2400 fps MV from a 500 A-Square.
I repeated the Barnes XLC and the GSC FN shots on the dead bison at 25 yards due to surprise at lack of penetration of the XLC (forerunner of the TSX) and exit of the GSC FN.
Same shot placement on the propped up dead bison.
Same results on bullet recovery of the XLC and exit of the GSC FN.

Apparently no bovine shoulder knuckles were encountered.

I will forget the idea of a Hammer Copper solid.
Nothing but CEB brass FN solids for me in velocities that might impact at 2400 fps or more.
I will have to give up the North Fork copper FP solid, too, but the copper Cup Point solid is still a choice, for buffalo, not elephant.

On this below yep I’m still a muppet & one you’ve still got some training to do on me getting the English language correct

There is a town in Kentucky called "Yosemite" but the locals pronounce it "YO-SUH-MIGHT."

Cheers

 

[Wyfox]

FYI, the "edit by moderator" is adjusting the file size on your photos.

 

[Riflecrank]

Michael458, about this:
"The photo was sent by a friend here on AH. He was forced to use Factory ammo last year for his buffalo hunt. This was Factory Federal Solids..... I call them Noslers, Trophy Bonded Solids..... meplat is way too small, causing instability, bullet turns just the slightest and hits bone or something turns into a banana. I just posted it like I normally would, so not sure what you might be asking?"

You answered all my questions just fine then, thanks.
My question was due to my bumfuzzlement, over how that Nosler 500-gr/.458 "Solid for Dangerous Game" got so warped out of shape.
That is indeed a Nosler solid and they claim it is of a lead-free alloy, so it ain't the usual free-machining brass that works so well in solid bullets.
Besides the too-small meplat, which is as you say the main culprit leading to loss of stability and bending.
Mash of nose might be partly due to alloy too.

The aid to feeding is a bad trade for poor straight-line penetration.
57% meplat diameter is obviously too small.
Here is the Nosler 500-grainer laid beside the 500-gr and 450-gr BBS bullet:

Better:

With such an exaggerated radius on the edge of the meplat of the Nosler, you know they are concentrating on feeding in the rifle for neglect of good solid bullet performance in critter.

Federal uses various solids in their premium ammo.
They had ditched the TBSS for the BBS in the last 2 boxes of their .458 WIN MAG ammo that I bought.
I went back for more after trying a box.
They advertise the 500-gr Barnes Banded Solid at 2050 fps MV.
In my .458 WIN MAG M70 Super Grade from South Carolina (SAAMI throat and 23-7/8" barrel)
it gave 2166 fps MV at 77*F.

Good stuff.
The BBS tested well in your media too, IIRC.
I have an acquaintance that stopped a tuskless elephant charge (MAD COW) with the 450-gr BBS at just under 2300 fps MV, frontal brain shot, using a .458 Lott.
Even the SAAMI .458 WIN MAG with 24" barrel can do better than 2300 fps with that bullet.

And thanks for making the 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid, at my begging, and also for making it less controversial,
if even the 325/.458 CEB Safari Solid is elephant capable.

So we have learned not to hunt elephant with 500-gr/.458 Nosler solids.
Add one more to the list of bad bullets.

 

[Riflecrank]

Fordy,
Whenever you can dig up anymore info on the busted Hammer bullets would be greatly appreciated.
I once had the 450-gr/.510-cal GSC HV pinch its nose shut on a close range (5-yard) insurance shot on a dead cape buffalo.
The buffalo had been killed by same bullet leaving muzzle of 500 Mbogo rifle at 2650 fps MV, impacted at about 75 yards, went through heart and lungs and broke offside shoulder/humerus.
It mushroomed perfectly.

The insurance shot was into spine between shoulders of buffalo lying on its side after the death bellow.
Too close to be "gone to sleep" for that bullet, a little wobble or yaw on hitting the bone ?
Reported to Gerard Shultz and he re-designed the bullet.
On that kind of shot the re-designed bullet might do the same ?

What the bullet looked like before:

Not a bad bullet, maybe just a freak nose pinch ?
At 2650 fps MV it was 0.75 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards.
At 2830 fps MV it was 1.5 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards in 500 Mbogo Rifle The First, with 25" barrel.
There is a 500 Mbogo Rifle The Second with 23" barrel that I like a lot better.
It would be perfect for elephant with a proper Solid solid.

 

[Riflecrank]

FYI, the "edit by moderator" is adjusting the file size on your photos.

Thanks for that.

 

[michael458]

You answered all my questions just fine then, thanks.
My question was due to my bumfuzzlement, over how that Nosler 500-gr/.458 "Solid for Dangerous Game" got so warped out of shape.
That is indeed a Nosler solid and they claim it is of a lead-free alloy, so it ain't the usual free-machining brass that works so well in solid bullets.
Besides the too-small meplat, which is as you say the main culprit leading to loss of stability and bending.
Mash of nose might be partly due to alloy too.

For sure, the meplat size is not stable, and this absolutely causes the bullet to veer. There has to be something in that alloy that allows them to bend like that, this one shown, not the only specimen. Sam had one do the same thing, I have heard of others with the exact same issue. I have never even seen this behavior in copper? In all the old T'Rex tests we did here, the ultimate bullet destroyer, I never seen that.

The aid to feeding is a bad trade for poor straight-line penetration.
57% meplat diameter is obviously too small.

Concur 100%...............

Federal uses various solids in their premium ammo.
They had ditched the TBSS for the BBS in the last 2 boxes of their .458 WIN MAG ammo that I bought.
I went back for more after trying a box.
They advertise the 500-gr Barnes Banded Solid at 2050 fps MV.
In my .458 WIN MAG M70 Super Grade from South Carolina (SAAMI throat and 23-7/8" barrel)
it gave 2166 fps MV at 77*F.

OK, this shows just how ignorant I am when it comes to Factory ammo, what is available and what bullet might be loaded. I never used Factory ammo in my entire life, either tests or in the field.

If Federal is loading a version of the Barnes Flat Nose Solid, then those that are forced to use some sort of Factory load, this would be the best choice over anything else I have seen available.

Those of you using Factory, you would be far far better served to contact a Custom Loading outfit, such as Superior Ammunition, and have CEB #13 loaded in your ammo. This would be the best choice in that situation.

The BBS tested well in your media too, IIRC.

Indeed they do. I used the Barnes Flat Nose exclusively before we designed the CEB #13s...... They did just fine, penetrated straight, and stayed on course. It is also a strong nose profile as well, heavy bone does not turn them into bananas. They plow through. I measured 65% meplat here, you get 64%, very close, close enough, they are stable during terminals.

So we have learned not to hunt elephant with 500-gr/.458 Nosler solids.
Add one more to the list of bad bullets.

Yes, I believe so, and I would not use them for anything........ regardless of weight, or caliber........
This bullet was on buffalo! Sam's turned and banana'ed on buffalo as well........ no telling what they would do on elephant...........

What did I tell you guys up front, even on this thread?

All Solids are NOT Created Equal........ Flat nose included....................

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank

Fordy,
Whenever you can dig up anymore info on the busted Hammer bullets would be greatly appreciated.

I got a few together of different types tonight & the top one was the catalyst for understanding a little bit more on what occurred & that was from a mate not my work but look @ it extremely closely you’ll see it tore the alloy & at that impact it should’ve popped the petals & you see this by the stretch in the alloy or basically they would look more like the raptor blades as these stretch very little due to the characteristics of the brass & mechanical system they use & the tearing process dosent give the cleaner meplat across multiple resistances & think how hammer tests bullets in milk jugs & dry news paper hmmm basically instant hydraulic

& it’s one that not only occurs in hammers as you’ve shown with the gs as it also happens with other brands as well but only a couple I’ve never seen it in but on the whole it occurs with hammers on a higher rate these days than it once did ( it’s related to weatherby ) & that comes simply down to non hydraulic pressure in the hp & one combination of what I call a dry impact & you had that exact thing as the nose didn’t completely pinch the hp off it was due to the dry impact basically plugging the hp
This non hydraulic action also lessons the killing efficiency of the pill & on average you’ll get longer runs & less critter reactions

There is a lot in this & while my words maybe incorrect it’s one that has had a fairly substantial number of critters taken in the thousands over many brands that showed the pattern

What I’m learning today is your better off with a mechanical activated pill than a hydraulic activated pill design if you want consistency
With consistency comes more reliability & that becomes better killing efficiency on the whole

I once had the 450-gr/.510-cal GSC HV pinch its nose shut on a close range (5-yard) insurance shot on a dead cape buffalo.
The buffalo had been killed by same bullet leaving muzzle of 500 Mbogo rifle at 2650 fps MV, impacted at about 75 yards, went through heart and lungs and broke offside shoulder/humerus.
It mushroomed perfectly.

The insurance shot was into spine between shoulders of buffalo lying on its side after the death bellow.
Too close to be "gone to sleep" for that bullet, a little wobble or yaw on hitting the bone ?
Reported to Gerard Shultz and he re-designed the bullet.
On that kind of shot the re-designed bullet might do the same ?

Yes it will most likely do it again even redesigning the pill but it may take 1 shot or 10 shots & why we need to test multiple as a new design on this type of pill will not guarantee it will work the only ones that can do that are the mechanical pills that don’t require the hydraulic but the harder the alloy the less chance it will have to pinch shut before the hydraulic forces start the expansion

You can see this well on Barnes as the dryer impacts don’t mushroom as well as the wetter impacts & you can have two pills sxs @ same impact & one into a skinny critter vrs a good condition one

Both hits on ribs & watch the difference in the amount of mushrooming occurs with those to pills now take a knuckle shot or parts of the head or even a dry mud encrusted hide etc & you get very little moisture on impact & that either plugs the hp or allows it to pinch over ( I call it nose over ) or best case a delayed opening

Now don’t be fooled into believing that a tip will fix it on all brands either as there are tips & there are tips & once again unless it’s a mechanical design a tip is basically a plug that will cause a greater risk of failure vrs a mechanical pills tip

A lot in this & should really be in another thread that we can delve a lot deeper as really it’s a solid world for elephant but then again it does have merit in this thread as it may help some understand the importance of consistency in hunting especially elephant imo

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What the bullet looked like before:

View attachment 700322

Not a bad bullet, maybe just a freak nose pinch ?
At 2650 fps MV it was 0.75 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards.
At 2830 fps MV it was 1.5 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards in 500 Mbogo Rifle The First, with 25" barrel.
There is a 500 Mbogo Rifle The Second with 23" barrel that I like a lot better.
It would be perfect for elephant with a proper Solid solid.

View attachment 700323

Nice looking rifle yes a proper solid solid hmmm that’s one that deserves its own thread also lol
Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday ok
Let’s have a look @ this picture

& work out what was a Fn solid & what was the Barnes the multi tool is dividing the 2 types
The impacts were deliberately kept below 2100 for a reason & ea left to right vary 100 fps difference impact these were taken tonight as riflecrank has kept me away from going through photos & recovered pills but I have them & will have recovered Barnes pills to go with my post above & this one , the caliber is in 6.5 mm

Now all of these were fatal shots but impact to tip is vastly difference

There are great textbook examples of why this has occurred but unless we study the actuals a lot will believe that a solid won’t be as good as a mushroom pill

Yes don’t underestimate the effectiveness of a good solid as it is still in today’s world a very important projectile

Cheers