Building another big bore...

[Luederitz]

IIRC was the 416 Dakota based on the 404 Jeffery brass, but with original cartridge length.
So you have no supply problems with brass, a kind of AI design with more powder space and more choice in bullet style.

 

[BeeMaa]

Why not go with the 338RUM?

Seem like you have the .375 and up covered pretty well. This would give you better than 338WM performance, in a CRF rifle with rimless and non-belted cartridge. And it would be nice to have something different for those special days of hunting.

 

[BigGame]

I have an Ed Brown in 416 RUM and really enjoy the caliber. It's accurate as any other Ed Brown Savanna in medium bore calibers. I also have enough ammunition to last a lifetime. Consider ammunition availability for caliber selection on your build.

 

[AZDAVE]

Like many I would vote for the 404 Jeff, it is such a classic round. The other option if you have now adversion to a wildcat is the 458 African. It uses 404 brass as the parent brass and gets you nipping on 458 Lott performance.

 

[Tanks]

Like many I would vote for the 404 Jeff, it is such a classic round. The other option if you have now adversion to a wildcat is the 458 African. It uses 404 brass as the parent brass and gets you nipping on 458 Lott performance.

Well, the .458 slot is taken with my .458 B&M wildcat and the .450 NE.

But, a lot of good ideas. Now, I might have to build multiple rifles.

 

[deewayne2003]

.500 Jeffrey perhaps?

You seem to have the doubles covered; my thoughts on the .500 Jeffrey would be an excellent magazine back up to your doubles, should you choose a dedicated Buff and or Elephant hunt.

 

[michael458]

.500 Jeffrey perhaps?

Tanks has a 500 MDM that covers that ......................

I have zero nostalgia coursing through my veins, so 404 and that sort of stuff has no interest at all with me..........

I really think Tanks has big bore rifles covered from end to end, but my judgment on that cannot be taken seriously, with well over 50 big bore rifles sitting in the Lab right now, and many multiples of the same cartridge, example 1/2 dozen 458 B&Ms and such as that.........

A couple of cartridges that would fit the rifle would be the 2.5 inch RUM phase I went through some years ago......... Always placing great importance on Terminal Performance, I had an idea to take the RUM Winchester action which will handle 3.6 inch cartridges, and do a 500 and 458 caliber 2.5 RUM case, in this case, one could seat Full Nose Projection Raptors, with an added Talan Tip in place, and these would work in the magazine of the longer RUM action............. These won't be found in the regular B&M lineup, and I personally own the only 3 rifles done, two 500 B&Ms and one 458 B&M EX...... Not being a genius with names, EX.. to distinguish it from the standard 2.25 inch 458 B&M... EX can be "Extra", "Extreme", or even "Express" if one wanted any sort of nostalgia.... HEH HEH.......

With the 500 B&M I had no real performance Goals in mind....... I went with the same 18 inch barrels and contour that the 50 B&M has (2.25 inch RUM)........ this made a very compact 500 caliber rifle. The standard 500 MDM Is a 2.8 inch RUM case at 20 inches, and had a heavier contour barrel. The 500 B&M is just ever so slightly longer and not much heavier at all than the smaller 50 B&M. But it has a distinct ballistic advantage over the lesser 50.....

Overall I like the 450 CEB Solid and 410 Raptor combination best, for both 50 B&M and 500 B&M... The 2.5 inch 500 is capable of running the 450 Solid at 2400 fps and the matching 410 Raptor at over 2500 fps. The 410 Raptors put buffalo in the dirt with authority, while the 450 Solids are capable of any of the heavies giving more than required penetration, and hitting authority. As a huge bonus, if I was strictly after elephant, the 500 B&M can run an excellent deep diving 525 gr CEB Solid at 2180 fps. This is end to end penetration on elephant from any angle, and plenty of bone crunching ability at that..............

The two 500 B&Ms..........

The 458 B&M EX ended up a little different, I had performance goals, at 20 inches I wanted it to equal 458 Lott at 24 inches. When I built the gun, a good friend of mine had a Accurate Innovations stock done for 500 MDM, but the problem was, it was just a tad short for him. I ended up taking the stock, decided to build the 458 B&M EX on it, but the contour was for the heavier 500 MDM Barrel, so I went with the heavier contour for he 458 B&M EX. This put the gun about 1 lb to the heavy side, but since I was sure I would never hunt with it anyway, I let that pass. The English stock is also a tad heavier than some other woods as well.

After doing load data and pressure data on the 458 B&M EX I became bored with it, once the goals I had set for it were achieved.......... It was put to the side for several years and not touched........

And once again, at 2.5 inches one can use full length nose projection Raptors, and work with the Talon Tips inserted, working through the magazine....

TALON TIPS? These are tips provided by CEB for the various big bore calibers, the Talon Tips will on average give you an extra 125-150 fps impact velocity at 50 yards. The way Raptors work, this is very substantial, as Raptors LOVE velocity. While you may start out a little faster at 2.8 inches of case capacity, the Talon Tip allows this to equal out at distance, eventually the Talon Tipped bullet will take over and exceed the non tip, even started faster...... at various distances from 50 yards +......

Last year I give my bullet stock a complete makeover in organization, and realized that I had large stocks of bullets on hand that I probably would not use. I also decided I needed and desired Shelf ammo for ALL my big bore rifles...... that was quite an undertaking, believe me. The 458 B&M EX fell into this and I started shooting it quite a bit, and actually decided that I really liked this gun a lot. I had a good stock of 480 CEB Solids and matching 450 Raptors that I really would not use or need. I decided to use them up with the 458 EX......... I also had a pile of 425 Lehighs as well...... I now have about 250 rounds of loaded ammo on the shelf for the 458 B&M EX, never know when the Zombies might pitch up, and I fell confident if I can get 10-12 lined up in a row, well one round should do the job..................with the solids of course...............4-5 with the Raptors I reckon.....

No, I am not suggesting Tanks do either of these, as he does not require such, and already has rifles and cartridges in 500 and 458......... Just some examples of something you might not know about. And examples of typical cartridges that fit that action........

 

[kdenn]

Beautiful stocks on the two above. I have no need for anything larger than .416Rigby, wife says I really don't need it. But i do love the look of the rifles.

 

[Tanks]

Tanks has a 500 MDM that covers that ......................

Yes, I do.

I was going through my ammo cupboard just a few days ago and noticed a few boxes of 335 grain tipped raptor ammo loaded for it. I was thinking to myself, "Those sure would be devastating on a buffalo at 2,900 fps".

 

[michael458]

noticed a few boxes of 335 grain tipped raptor ammo loaded for it. I was thinking to myself, "Those sure would be devastating on a buffalo at 2,900 fps"

They would. I shot one of my most favorite Aussie bulls with a 350 ESP Raptor at 2750 fps, used that bullet a lot on various other critters, eland, wildebeest, oryx and such with devastating effects. The bullet hit point of shoulder on the buffalo quartering to, and it busted him all to pieces, he could not move from point of impact, I quickly put a finisher in him and he was DRT.......... Normally not a great fan of the ESP line, but the 350 ESP in .500 caliber is an exception, and the solid end is more than suitable for buffalo backup.......... I once gut shot a running wildebeest with this same load in 500 MDM. I mean no vitals hit at all. The devastation was so severe and so extensive, surprising to us after about a 200 yard followup the animal was not only down, but stone cold dead as well..... just so much devastation it could not take it.......... awful.........

As a rule of thumb in my test medium I like 20 inches as a minimum for buffalo.......... Although I do know for a fact that 18 inches of penetration has been used and successful

 

[Arthur Morta]

Tanks has a 500 MDM that covers that ......................

I have zero nostalgia coursing through my veins, so 404 and that sort of stuff has no interest at all with me..........

I really think Tanks has big bore rifles covered from end to end, but my judgment on that cannot be taken seriously, with well over 50 big bore rifles sitting in the Lab right now, and many multiples of the same cartridge, example 1/2 dozen 458 B&Ms and such as that.........

A couple of cartridges that would fit the rifle would be the 2.5 inch RUM phase I went through some years ago......... Always placing great importance on Terminal Performance, I had an idea to take the RUM Winchester action which will handle 3.6 inch cartridges, and do a 500 and 458 caliber 2.5 RUM case, in this case, one could seat Full Nose Projection Raptors, with an added Talan Tip in place, and these would work in the magazine of the longer RUM action............. These won't be found in the regular B&M lineup, and I personally own the only 3 rifles done, two 500 B&Ms and one 458 B&M EX...... Not being a genius with names, EX.. to distinguish it from the standard 2.25 inch 458 B&M... EX can be "Extra", "Extreme", or even "Express" if one wanted any sort of nostalgia.... HEH HEH.......

With the 500 B&M I had no real performance Goals in mind....... I went with the same 18 inch barrels and contour that the 50 B&M has (2.25 inch RUM)........ this made a very compact 500 caliber rifle. The standard 500 MDM Is a 2.8 inch RUM case at 20 inches, and had a heavier contour barrel. The 500 B&M is just ever so slightly longer and not much heavier at all than the smaller 50 B&M. But it has a distinct ballistic advantage over the lesser 50.....

View attachment 443932

Overall I like the 450 CEB Solid and 410 Raptor combination best, for both 50 B&M and 500 B&M... The 2.5 inch 500 is capable of running the 450 Solid at 2400 fps and the matching 410 Raptor at over 2500 fps. The 410 Raptors put buffalo in the dirt with authority, while the 450 Solids are capable of any of the heavies giving more than required penetration, and hitting authority. As a huge bonus, if I was strictly after elephant, the 500 B&M can run an excellent deep diving 525 gr CEB Solid at 2180 fps. This is end to end penetration on elephant from any angle, and plenty of bone crunching ability at that..............

The two 500 B&Ms..........

View attachment 443933

View attachment 443935


The 458 B&M EX ended up a little different, I had performance goals, at 20 inches I wanted it to equal 458 Lott at 24 inches. When I built the gun, a good friend of mine had a Accurate Innovations stock done for 500 MDM, but the problem was, it was just a tad short for him. I ended up taking the stock, decided to build the 458 B&M EX on it, but the contour was for the heavier 500 MDM Barrel, so I went with the heavier contour for he 458 B&M EX. This put the gun about 1 lb to the heavy side, but since I was sure I would never hunt with it anyway, I let that pass. The English stock is also a tad heavier than some other woods as well.

After doing load data and pressure data on the 458 B&M EX I became bored with it, once the goals I had set for it were achieved.......... It was put to the side for several years and not touched........

And once again, at 2.5 inches one can use full length nose projection Raptors, and work with the Talon Tips inserted, working through the magazine....

TALON TIPS? These are tips provided by CEB for the various big bore calibers, the Talon Tips will on average give you an extra 125-150 fps impact velocity at 50 yards. The way Raptors work, this is very substantial, as Raptors LOVE velocity. While you may start out a little faster at 2.8 inches of case capacity, the Talon Tip allows this to equal out at distance, eventually the Talon Tipped bullet will take over and exceed the non tip, even started faster...... at various distances from 50 yards +......

View attachment 443934

Last year I give my bullet stock a complete makeover in organization, and realized that I had large stocks of bullets on hand that I probably would not use. I also decided I needed and desired Shelf ammo for ALL my big bore rifles...... that was quite an undertaking, believe me. The 458 B&M EX fell into this and I started shooting it quite a bit, and actually decided that I really liked this gun a lot. I had a good stock of 480 CEB Solids and matching 450 Raptors that I really would not use or need. I decided to use them up with the 458 EX......... I also had a pile of 425 Lehighs as well...... I now have about 250 rounds of loaded ammo on the shelf for the 458 B&M EX, never know when the Zombies might pitch up, and I fell confident if I can get 10-12 lined up in a row, well one round should do the job..................with the solids of course...............4-5 with the Raptors I reckon.....

View attachment 443936

View attachment 443937

View attachment 443938

No, I am not suggesting Tanks do either of these, as he does not require such, and already has rifles and cartridges in 500 and 458......... Just some examples of something you might not know about. And examples of typical cartridges that fit that action........

I apologise from the onset, my post is not meant to hijack the OP and subsequent discussions on the same.
However noticing that the a number of CEB DG bullets look brass/ bronze alloy.
The query I have is, if we who shoot copper jacketed/ monolithics have to deal cleaning out copper fouling with you name it chemical processes etc, how do you remove the brass/ bronze fouling from your barrels...especially those of the Chrome Moly type?

Back to the discussion at hand, being a Lefty myself I would build this rifle on a .416 Weatherby (expecting flack for the Weatherby).

 

[Tanks]

...

Back to the discussion at hand, being a Lefty myself I would build this rifle on a .416 Weatherby (expecting flack for the Weatherby).

I do not want a belted magnum. Not to mention @RLL has my .416 B&M now, if I wanted a .416 I would have kept it. (Not that there is much of a difference between it and a .404J ballistically ).

 

[Arthur Morta]

I do not want a belted magnum. Not to mention @RLL has my .416 B&M now, if I wanted a .416 I would have kept it. (Not that there is much of a difference between it and a .404J ballistically ).

Fair choice Tanks. Look forward to the final build

 

[GuttormG]

Sell it and use the cash for some more hunting day..s

 

[Rare Breed]

Last year I had plans to build a .300 RUM rifle for plains game. I ordered a Defiance Machine Deviant Hunter long action in LH, CRF with 3 position safety with Trigger Tech trigger.

View attachment 443012

However, due to possible time delays on getting it built I ended up buying a Blaser R8 with a .300 RUM barrel.

So, now I have this expensive action sitting on a shelf. I have not spent any money on firearms for a year and the firearms for my August hunt are set (.500 NE and .300 RUM), so no time pressure.

Calibers I have in big bores are .450 NE, .458 B&M, .500 NE and .500 MDM.

Considering the action was built for .300 RUM which is based on a .404 Jeffrey case I guess I could build a .404 Jeffrey.

Any other ideas, what say you?

Definitely 404 Jeffery

 

[michael458]

The query I have is, if we who shoot copper jacketed/ monolithics have to deal cleaning out copper fouling with you name it chemical processes etc, how do you remove the brass/ bronze fouling from your barrels...especially those of the Chrome Moly type?

I have a very simple solution to Cleaning Big Bore rifle barrels...... You simply "Don't"............. I can tell you honestly that in 25 years +++ of shooting big bore rifles, I might have run a brush and solvent down a big bore barrel maybe 5 times, and I am not sure why I even did that much.............

One might think that since I don't clean them, I must not shoot much? You would be foolish to think so. When I was at the height of doing load data, pressure data and big bore bullet tech, I was shooting on average over 10,000 rounds of big bore a year, all 416+ and most of it 458+........... several sessions a week.......... I would shoot more big bore in a week than most would shoot in a lifetime. So lack of running bullets down a bore is not in the equation.

I have many many many big bore rifles that have NEVER been cleaned, and have been shot 1000s of times. I mean NEVER run a brush or solvent or anything down the bore..........Why would I? If you can keep 3 rounds touching or even in the same hole at 50 yards, why would you clean one?

There is ONE instance that has occurred here that I can 100% attribute a serious problem to the lack of cleaning the bore.

I have a 500 MDM test gun, it was the second rifle built in that cartridge. It was set up with strain gages and used to collect all the 500 MDM pressure data. It was also used for standard load data, and most of the bullet tech work done at higher velocities in .500 caliber. I could go back and get a fair count on the number of rounds fired probably, but it would have had to have been somewhere between 4000 and 5000 rounds. One day while trying to get some pressures, the bullets started hitting sideways at 25 yards. I honestly figured that I had finally shot a barrel smooth and wore it out in a big bore, which would have been a first in any particular rifle or barrel. I was convinced of it. So I boxed it up, got in touch with Brian at SSK and told him what it was doing and to go ahead and replace the barrel, I had worn it out.

A couple of weeks go by, and the rifle pitches up here, but it does not look like a new barrel? I touch base with Brian, and he had "CLEANED" the barrel, said it had so much brass in it, that he thought that was the issue. I hooked it up, shot it, and it was perfect again, and hitting dead on at either 25 or 50 yards, no more sideways hits.........But it had taken 4000-5000 rounds of brass bullets to get to that point.

No, I will never run a brush or solvent down a big bore barrel personally. When one starts hitting sideways again, I will send the damn thing to Brian at SSK, and not waste my time with it.............

But what if one is going on a very expensive, important hunt??? What if Dangerous Game is involved, and a bullet hitting sideways is not a good thing? Yep, I concur..... Question? How many rounds have you fired? 4000+ perhaps? Well if you found yourself in that position, only had one big bore gun in that cartridge or caliber, then send it off 6 months before hunting, have someone clean the damn thing, then shoot it back in if you have those concerns. I have never done that nor ever been concerned with it.

Big Bore rifles are not rat guns. I know that you have to clean Rat guns because they will without doubt begin to become less accurate with copper or brass build up in the bore. They are susceptible this and in my opinion a big bore is not.

I treat handguns exactly the same, I have never run a brush down a handgun barrel. I had a close friend, one day I walked by and he was meticulously brushing the bore of a big bore revolver? I asked him why he was doing that? He never really came back with a proper answer that I could accept, I told him he was getting older, and he could be shooting or doing something more productive with what time he had left! LOL............ For many years after that we would tease each other about it. He passed some years ago and is missed. I have one 45 ACP handgun that has had over 25,000 rounds down the same bore, never cleaned, and I still can't shoot better than it can.

In some instances we would shoot some cast bullets a bit too fast, and get some leading. Scrub and rub? Not on your life, just shoot a few jacketed bullets down the bore, and it becomes nice and shiny......... I once was doing some shot loads for big bore rifles, figured a few shot loads in my pocket would be good snake medicine. So I figured out a fairly decent way to get some shot loads and was doing tests with them to great success..... easy snake medicine out to at least 10 yards, I like keeping a lot of distance between me and those things. The more the better........ After having fired several of these, for some reason I decided to look down the barrel, and it was leaded all to hell, nearly closing the muzzle of a .500 caliber rifle......... What a mess. Off to the range and at 25 yards that gun would not shoot a 6 inch group, but after firing 6-7 rounds it came together. Looking down the bore, it was bright and shiny again, no scrubbing needed............Later I studied how many shot rounds I could fire before it went to crap, and it was 5 shot loads....... I could shoot a couple and not effect POI or accuracy.

Now, this stated, one does indeed clean for feed/function and such as that, but scrubbing big bore rife or handgun barrels is just not required here at all, until things go sideways you might say.........

Sorry to hijack Tanks, but one can only state "404" so many times before it becomes monotonous.....LOL

 

[Hunter-Habib]

You could go for a .550 Magnum.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I have a very simple solution to Cleaning Big Bore rifle barrels...... You simply "Don't"............. I can tell you honestly that in 25 years +++ of shooting big bore rifles, I might have run a brush and solvent down a big bore barrel maybe 5 times, and I am not sure why I even did that much.............

One might think that since I don't clean them, I must not shoot much? You would be foolish to think so. When I was at the height of doing load data, pressure data and big bore bullet tech, I was shooting on average over 10,000 rounds of big bore a year, all 416+ and most of it 458+........... several sessions a week.......... I would shoot more big bore in a week than most would shoot in a lifetime. So lack of running bullets down a bore is not in the equation.

I have many many many big bore rifles that have NEVER been cleaned, and have been shot 1000s of times. I mean NEVER run a brush or solvent or anything down the bore..........Why would I? If you can keep 3 rounds touching or even in the same hole at 50 yards, why would you clean one?

There is ONE instance that has occurred here that I can 100% attribute a serious problem to the lack of cleaning the bore.

I have a 500 MDM test gun, it was the second rifle built in that cartridge. It was set up with strain gages and used to collect all the 500 MDM pressure data. It was also used for standard load data, and most of the bullet tech work done at higher velocities in .500 caliber. I could go back and get a fair count on the number of rounds fired probably, but it would have had to have been somewhere between 4000 and 5000 rounds. One day while trying to get some pressures, the bullets started hitting sideways at 25 yards. I honestly figured that I had finally shot a barrel smooth and wore it out in a big bore, which would have been a first in any particular rifle or barrel. I was convinced of it. So I boxed it up, got in touch with Brian at SSK and told him what it was doing and to go ahead and replace the barrel, I had worn it out.

A couple of weeks go by, and the rifle pitches up here, but it does not look like a new barrel? I touch base with Brian, and he had "CLEANED" the barrel, said it had so much brass in it, that he thought that was the issue. I hooked it up, shot it, and it was perfect again, and hitting dead on at either 25 or 50 yards, no more sideways hits.........But it had taken 4000-5000 rounds of brass bullets to get to that point.

No, I will never run a brush or solvent down a big bore barrel personally. When one starts hitting sideways again, I will send the damn thing to Brian at SSK, and not waste my time with it.............

But what if one is going on a very expensive, important hunt??? What if Dangerous Game is involved, and a bullet hitting sideways is not a good thing? Yep, I concur..... Question? How many rounds have you fired? 4000+ perhaps? Well if you found yourself in that position, only had one big bore gun in that cartridge or caliber, then send it off 6 months before hunting, have someone clean the damn thing, then shoot it back in if you have those concerns. I have never done that nor ever been concerned with it.

Big Bore rifles are not rat guns. I know that you have to clean Rat guns because they will without doubt begin to become less accurate with copper or brass build up in the bore. They are susceptible this and in my opinion a big bore is not.

I treat handguns exactly the same, I have never run a brush down a handgun barrel. I had a close friend, one day I walked by and he was meticulously brushing the bore of a big bore revolver? I asked him why he was doing that? He never really came back with a proper answer that I could accept, I told him he was getting older, and he could be shooting or doing something more productive with what time he had left! LOL............ For many years after that we would tease each other about it. He passed some years ago and is missed. I have one 45 ACP handgun that has had over 25,000 rounds down the same bore, never cleaned, and I still can't shoot better than it can.

In some instances we would shoot some cast bullets a bit too fast, and get some leading. Scrub and rub? Not on your life, just shoot a few jacketed bullets down the bore, and it becomes nice and shiny......... I once was doing some shot loads for big bore rifles, figured a few shot loads in my pocket would be good snake medicine. So I figured out a fairly decent way to get some shot loads and was doing tests with them to great success..... easy snake medicine out to at least 10 yards, I like keeping a lot of distance between me and those things. The more the better........ After having fired several of these, for some reason I decided to look down the barrel, and it was leaded all to hell, nearly closing the muzzle of a .500 caliber rifle......... What a mess. Off to the range and at 25 yards that gun would not shoot a 6 inch group, but after firing 6-7 rounds it came together. Looking down the bore, it was bright and shiny again, no scrubbing needed............Later I studied how many shot rounds I could fire before it went to crap, and it was 5 shot loads....... I could shoot a couple and not effect POI or accuracy.

Now, this stated, one does indeed clean for feed/function and such as that, but scrubbing big bore rife or handgun barrels is just not required here at all, until things go sideways you might say.........

Sorry to hijack Tanks, but one can only state "404" so many times before it becomes monotonous.....LOL

VERY interesting! I have often wondered about cleaning larger bore rifle and handgun barrels, and have never been consistent at it until I shot ONLY a couple hundred rounds through mainly a .45ACP, .454 Casull and 10mm. I won’t worry about the barrels too much then. Thanks!

 

[GuttormG]

I am pretty sure more barrels are damaged by "cleaning" then shooting.

 

[RLL]

@Tanks, Ever decide on a chambering?

Im sitting on 2 left hand Dakota RUM and short actions, debating chamberings as well…