Buckshot & Leopard- Fact Or Fiction?

[CoElkHunter]

Co Elk Hunter ,
You are correct that shot of any size is inappropriate for large animals. However , l have killed Indian Bears with SG cartridge from my Ishapore shot-gun fifty years ago. You see , the bear is an odd creature. It's head structure makes it close to impossible to secure a shot to the brain as their brain is very small. At distances of 5 or 6 yards , the aforementioned SG shot treated with bees wax can work excellently on a charging bear from the front position. The method is to keep your calmness until the animal is at close quarters . 7 yards or less is ideal. Then the shooter fires at the head of the bear. The concentrated charge of large shot at short distance is very effective for finding the brain of a bear.
I have a photograph of such an incident from 1966 , of a bear killed by myself which had attempted to charge at a client.
Perhaps it may interest you ?
However , just because something can be done , does not mean that it should be done and magnum .300 by Winchester would be a much better tool for this application.

Kawshik,
Almost everything here on AH interests me! Your information, stories and expertise included! A grizzly bears skull is much thicker than other bears. I have a 10mm Glock that I carry in the words here in Colorado for protection against a rogue black bear or mountain lion and load it with 220gr hard cast bullets. But, just as with buckshot, I wouldn’t carry it for protection in grizzly country. I WOULD carry a .454 Casull or larger handgun though.
CEH

 

[CoElkHunter]

^ well , CEH , clearly these old timeys know more than we do . Jesus

I guess so.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Kawshik,
Almost everything here on AH interests me! Your information, stories and expertise included! A grizzly bears skull is much thicker than other bears. I have a 10mm Glock that I carry in the words here in Colorado for protection against a rogue black bear or mountain lion and load it with 220gr hard cast bullets. But, just as with buckshot, I wouldn’t carry it for protection in grizzly country. I WOULD carry a .454 Casull or larger handgun though.
CEH

Co Elk Hunter
I have just done some internet search of grizzly bear picture. Yes , they certainly look very big and intimidating. As l have no first hand experience with shooting the grizzly species , l cannot pretend to know anything about them. I concede that you are correct and it would be much harder to kill a grizzly bear with SG than an Indian bear. I shall send you the picture promptly . Let me just lay it flat and take a picture of the picture with my touch phone.

 

[WAB]

But Mr. Rahman , what about my book ?! If you give all your photos now , my book'll have no value !

LOL, I think we’ll still buy your book Hoss! By the way, I have to agree with Red Leg’s assessment of Mark Sullivan. He talked at the SCI dinner in Fairbanks AK a number of years ago. He made no bones about intentionally wounding buffalo and then invoking a charge. He suggested that we should try this on Grizzly. Perhaps it was just bravado, but it was said. I have zero respect for anyone who will behave in that manner.

 

[Mort Hill]

What an awesome thread. The personal experiences and history are riveting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

What an awesome thread. The personal experiences and history are riveting. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

LOL, I think we’ll still buy your book Hoss! By the way, I have to agree with Red Leg’s assessment of Mark Sullivan. He talked at the SCI dinner in Fairbanks AK a number of years ago. He made no bones about intentionally wounding buffalo and then invoking a charge. He suggested that we should try this on Grizzly. Perhaps it was just bravado, but it was said. I have zero respect for anyone who will behave in that manner.

Wab
You have excellent view. Even if one ignores ethics ( which form the core of a hunter's conduct ) , it is very risky. What if , Lord forbid , the gun experiences a misfire of some sort ? It is a mechanical object after all and one should never tempt fate , regardless of how reliable it is . The chances of a hunter getting out of a situation like this is one in a hundred. An Indian bear can cover a great deal of distance in a short period and is a very dangerous creature if it has you within it's reach . Based on how much bigger the grizzly species appears on internet pictures , the idea that someone would deliberately injure one to provoke it into charging is utter folly .
Even though l greatly admire classic hunting films , such as Stewart Granger's excellent " king Solomon's mines " and " Harry Black and the tiger " , the films include scenes of the Shikari stopping the animal from charging and saving everybody. While this is realistic in some unfortunate situations , a comfortable Shikar is when the client does not have to shoot a charging animal , but a stationary one.

 

[IvW]

Shotguns are often used when following up wounded leopard and not as the combination for the initial shot.
It must also be understood that many old time hunters had to use what they had and had to make do with what they had.

They issue with any buckshot is that you are shooting round balls, which have very bad sectional density, which in turn relates to very poor penetration. They may be successful but ONLY if used at extreme short range. Very few can hold there nerve under these circumstance. A leopard charge is the fastest and closest range charge from any of the DG animals. You have one shot in most cases to stop the charge.

When stopping a charge from any DG animal the most important is SHOT PLACEMENT the next almost as important is PENETRATION, which can only be achieved by using the right bullet for the task at hand. For leopard and shotguns, buckshot is not that combination but rather a premium grade slug, of which I found the Original Brenneke to be the best.

Nowadays it would be a very bad idea to use buckshot, the best to use is an Original Brenneke Slug.

Furthermore, if a shotgun is used a double SXS shorter in the barrels(24") and fitted with two triggers is the way to go.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Shotguns are often used when following up wounded leopard and not as the combination for the initial shot.
It must also be understood that many old time hunters had to use what they had and had to make do with what they had.

They issue with any buckshot is that you are shooting round balls, which have very bad sectional density, which in turn relates to very poor penetration. They may be successful but ONLY if used at extreme short range. Very few can hold there nerve under these circumstance. A leopard charge is the fastest and closest range charge from any of the DG animals. You have one shot in most cases to stop the charge.

When stopping a charge from any DG animal the most important is SHOT PLACEMENT the next almost as important is PENETRATION, which can only be achieved by using the right bullet for the task at hand. For leopard and shotguns, buckshot is not that combination but rather a premium grade slug, of which I found the Original Brenneke to be the best.

Nowadays it would be a very bad idea to use buckshot, the best to use is an Original Brenneke Slug.

Furthermore, if a shotgun is used a double SXS shorter in the barrels(24") and fitted with two triggers is the way to go.

IvW
I could not agree more. Even though l have used SG cartridge in my career extensively , it was because that was all l had at the time. At distances of 25 feet , an SG cartridge is a pitiful choice for a leopard. The lead pellets will penetrate the skin but will flatten on the muscles which are are hard as a rock. The only way that you may use SG to reliably stop an leopard is at distances of less than ten feet , however that is uncomfortably close. My former partner , the late Karim Chowdhury actually got bitten in the leg by a leopard when the two SG cartridges from his shot-gun failed to kill the animal in 1970. Leopards in India weigh between 200 to 270 pounds and if l had a good central fire rifle or even German slug projectiles available to me during my career , then that it what l would use. If all of the pellets did not reach the region where the neck meets the shoulder , then the leopard would give us a very difficult time .
I would even be hesitant to use the newer available copper plate SG shot.
Excellent view. Just because something can be done does not mean that it should be done.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Shotguns are often used when following up wounded leopard and not as the combination for the initial shot.
It must also be understood that many old time hunters had to use what they had and had to make do with what they had.

They issue with any buckshot is that you are shooting round balls, which have very bad sectional density, which in turn relates to very poor penetration. They may be successful but ONLY if used at extreme short range. Very few can hold there nerve under these circumstance. A leopard charge is the fastest and closest range charge from any of the DG animals. You have one shot in most cases to stop the charge.

When stopping a charge from any DG animal the most important is SHOT PLACEMENT the next almost as important is PENETRATION, which can only be achieved by using the right bullet for the task at hand. For leopard and shotguns, buckshot is not that combination but rather a premium grade slug, of which I found the Original Brenneke to be the best.

Nowadays it would be a very bad idea to use buckshot, the best to use is an Original Brenneke Slug.

Furthermore, if a shotgun is used a double SXS shorter in the barrels(24") and fitted with two triggers is the way to go.

Thanks , IvW . I guess l shouldn't try to use what the old school guys used after all. Instead l should use Brenekke MAGNUM slugs. BTW
Do you know how many Pellets LG shotgun shells hold ?

 

[IvW]

Sambhar deer hunter
Is OO buckshot larger or smaller than SG ?

OO buckshot is one size bigger than SG

SG has 9 pellets with a diameter of .32" or 8.38mm
OO has 8 pellets with a diameter of .34" or 8.64mm

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

OO buckshot is one size bigger than SG

SG has 9 pellets with a diameter of .32" or 8.38mm
OO has 8 pellets with a diameter of .34" or 8.64mm

IvW
I appreciate your assistance . Thank you.

 

[IvW]

Thanks , IvW . I guess l shouldn't try to use what the old school guys used after all. Instead l should use Brenekke MAGNUM slugs. BTW
Do you know how many Pellets LG shotgun shells hold ?

LG is equal to OOO Buck and is one size up from OO Buck and two sizes up from SG. There is no British equivalent to OO Buck

LG has 6 pellets with a diameter of .36" or 9.14mm

Brenneke Black magic weight is 602gr @1502 fps but you need a 3" shotgun, recoil is more and so is recovery time between shots.

Original Brenneke weight is 492gr @ 1510 fps less recoil and all the power you need for leopard and it is 2 3/4"

I have never found the Original Brenneke Magnum wanting.

The other difference between the two is that the original retains its length for increased penetration where the Black magic the rear section collapses into the front section which in effect shortens the slug....

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

LG is equal to OOO Buck and is one size up from OO Buck and two sizes up from SG. There is no British equivalent to OO Buck

LG has 6 pellets with a diameter of .36" or 9.14mm


View attachment 308315

Brenneke Black magic weight is 602gr @1502 fps but you need a 3" shotgun, recoil is more and so is recovery time between shots.
View attachment 308314

Original Brenneke weight is 492gr @ 1510 fps less recoil and all the power you need for leopard and it is 2 3/4"

I have never found the Original Brenneke Magnum wanting.

The other difference between the two is that the original retains its length for increased penetration where the Black magic the rear section collapses into the front section which in effect shortens the slug....

IvW
I have seen clients bring these German slug bullets from 1962 to 1970 . They were devastatingly effective on leopard and Royal Bengal tiger . I did not see the 89 millimeter version until 1999 , long after l had retired . My final and 32nd leopard was killed in 1995 near the Sundarban forests. I used a 12 bore Beretta over-under s686 special with 70 millimeter chamber and an SG cartridge. It was fully choked in the up barrel and modified choke in the down barrel. Since SG is not suited for full choke , l only had SG in the modified choke barrel. This leopard was killed after using bait at a distance of seven feet . However , it is an extremely risky method , even more so , because there was only one cartridge in the gun which contained SG.
During my actual career as a full time Shikari , shot-guns were used to pursue leopards which had been injured by clients and incorrect aim. You are very correct that no sensible person would use a shot-gun for the first shot at an uninjured leopard .

 

[IvW]

IvW
I have seen clients bring these German slug bullets from 1962 to 1970 . They were devastatingly effective on leopard and Royal Bengal tiger . I did not see the 89 millimeter version until 1999 , long after l had retired . My final and 32nd leopard was killed in 1995 near the Sundarban forests. I used a 12 bore Beretta over-under s686 special with 70 millimeter chamber and an SG cartridge. It was fully choked in the up barrel and modified choke in the down barrel. Since SG is not suited for full choke , l only had SG in the modified choke barrel. This leopard was killed after using bait at a distance of seven feet . However , it is an extremely risky method , even more so , because there was only one cartridge in the gun which contained SG.
During my actual career as a full time Shikari , shot-guns were used to pursue leopards which had been injured by clients and incorrect aim. You are very correct that no sensible person would use a shot-gun for the first shot at an uninjured leopard .

That is a nice looking leopard!

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

That is a nice looking leopard!

IvW,
thank you for your kind words . I would have much preferred using a German slug , however .

 

[IvW]

One further consideration that I omitted to mention, which only people who have experienced and had to deal with a charge while following up wounded leopard is the following:

During a charge elephant can be turned, buffalo need to be killed, lion have to be killed, rhino can be turned, leopard have to be killed.

If a wounded elephant gets hold of you are almost certainly going to die, if a wounded buffalo gets hold of you its probably 50/50, a wounded lion probably 80% that you are going to die, wounded rhino you probably going to make it, a wounded leopard you probably going to make it but I can assure you that you(and probably a few more of the follow up party) are going to resemble something that lost a fight with a chain saw.....

Now the big problem with leopard attack is the distance and the speed the attack is launched from, it will wait until the the chosen one(yes the leopard will single out its first victim before jumping to the next and the next) and then launch an attack from very close at lightning speed. The small size, speed of the attack and the distance makes it very difficult to kill the leopard.

Elephant you will probably see and know when the attack comes often giving opportunity for more than one shot, buffalo may ambush you but the attack will also come from a bit further out and offering ample opportunity to close the deal, lion almost always will give a load grunt when starting the charge and from further out which gives you the direction of the attack and opportunity to be prepared. Rhino you will see coming will turn when shot and can easily be avoided.

Now if you are using a buckshot loaded shotgun on the follow up of a wounded leopard and you use this if the leopard gets hold of anybody in the party you will not(I wound not) be able to take the shot as you may well kill the person instead of the leopard...

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

One further consideration that I omitted to mention, which only people who have experienced and had to deal with a charge while following up wounded leopard is the following:

During a charge elephant can be turned, buffalo need to be killed, lion have to be killed, rhino can be turned, leopard have to be killed.

If a wounded elephant gets hold of you are almost certainly going to die, if a wounded buffalo gets hold of you its probably 50/50, a wounded lion probably 80% that you are going to die, wounded rhino you probably going to make it, a wounded leopard you probably going to make it but I can assure you that you(and probably a few more of the follow up party) are going to resemble something that lost a fight with a chain saw.....

Now the big problem with leopard attack is the distance and the speed the attack is launched from, it will wait until the the chosen one(yes the leopard will single out its first victim before jumping to the next and the next) and then launch an attack from very close at lightning speed. The small size, speed of the attack and the distance makes it very difficult to kill the leopard.

Elephant you will probably see and know when the attack comes often giving opportunity for more than one shot, buffalo may ambush you but the attack will also come from a bit further out and offering ample opportunity to close the deal, lion almost always will give a load grunt when starting the charge and from further out which gives you the direction of the attack and opportunity to be prepared. Rhino you will see coming will turn when shot and can easily be avoided.

Now if you are using a buckshot loaded shotgun on the follow up of a wounded leopard and you use this if the leopard gets hold of anybody in the party you will not(I wound not) be able to take the shot as you may well kill the person instead of the leopard...

IvW is absolutely correct. Shooting a leopard over a bait and shooting a charging leopard are extremely different situations. Back in our time , we used to treat the SG cartridges with wax from bees. This was done by opening the top of the cartridge and pouring molten wax of bees onto the SG pellets. This reduced spreading a little bit , but not enough to be safe. It would be very risky to use shot of any form , if the leopard pounced on one of our trackers or coolies . This actually happened to us once in 1967 and the only reason all of us survived was because the leopard was so close to me that l was able to shoot it by placing the muzzles on it's neck region at point blank distance. Our coolie had lost one ear.

 

[IvW]

That is where some serious issues could arise, making conclusions from paper ballistics....especially when we are talking about the fastest charging DG animal of them all, we are not talking about a feral pig...

After a wounded leopard follow up ended in my Zim tracker nearly being turned into mince meat by a Leopard a client had wounded the day before I came to the sudden and real conclusion that any form of buck shot had no place as a cartridge for use as a follow up for wounded leopard.

This was early in my career and they only DG rifle I had was a Brno ZKK 602 375 H&H, I had superb confidence in this combination but, I can assure you it is not the best choice for wounded leopard follow up.

I was asked to assist with the follow up as the other PH was convinced that the leopard was only lightly wounded and I had the best tracker anybody had ever had the privilege of hunting with and he had a lot of DG experience(the whole story is for another post). The other PH had 12ga shotgun loaded with LG buckshot(the biggest we get), I had my 375 H&H.

We picked up the track which went up into and over a small koppie. As we crested the Koppie, the area flattened out and a gully was evident that went down to our right hand side. My head tracker stopped and no words were needed. The area had been burnt not to long before and was devoid of any long grass or brush. However the gully which was soft soil compared to the rest of the rocky area we had just crested. In front of us where a whole lot of warthog holes. With no cover to speak of the leopard could well be in one of these. The Zim tracker was motioned into a Marula tree that was close by. He climbed up and with hand signals we motioned to him to check the holes from the top. After some considerable time he shook his head and came down. My head tracker and myself where still convinced the leopard was there, experience?sixth sense? who knows but we knew....

Unknown to us the leopard was indeed in one of the holes but only lying low in the entrance of one....he had been watching the tracker in the tree all along and had singled him out....

Just as we moved forward the leopard launched his attack....Barnabas the tracker was in the lead, with a scream he took off, the other PH had the leopard come right past him, his first shot was quartering frontal had no effect the second shot was more broadside and also had no effect. I stepped past him but at this time it was Barnabas leading the race in front with the leopard on his heels.....I could not take a shot for fear of hitting Barnabas....my head tracker Alec Ndlovu was shouting to Barnabas to duck left or right, which he eventually did and I squeezed of killing the leopard. Barnabas only returned 45 minutes later, we had no idea how far he had run....

I could not understand how the leopard had not gotten hold of him, upon inspection we found that the leopard had been shot in the right front wrist which slowed him down. Further we found that some pellets were in the fur just into the skin. Back at the skinning shed and during skinning we found that not one pellet had entered the muscle mass of this large leopard male.....

The hardness of an attacking large male leopards muscles are something to behold...

I realized a rifle is not the tool for the job, I needed a double, I could not afford one...

During my search for the best leopard charge stopping rifle I came to the conclusion that only a double would be acceptable, enter the poor mans double...a slug loaded shotgun and specifically loaded with original Brenneke slugs.

Extensive testing followed and after hunting, many many bush pigs, warthogs, blue wildebeest, gems buck, impala, kudu etc. it became very evident that buckshot was not up to the task and only the mentioned original Brenneke slugs would suffice.

My 24" ghost ring sight fitted, Brno side lock sxs 12ga 2 3/4" loaded with Original Brenneke slugs became my leopard back up rig and has never let me down.

Yes paper ballistics are a starting point but field testing and results have to be the final decision maker of what does and what does not work...especially when dealing with DG.

Yes I still use buck shot but mainly when hunting bush pigs in corn at night without hounds, just by sound, when I will load one barrel with LG and the other with a Brenneke slug.

When hunting them over hounds we prefer Spanish or other slugs as the Brenneke seems to over penetrate and could hit one of the hounds.

 

[TMac]

I know nothing about Leopards, but have hunted Cougar in NA a number of times, always with a rifle. While not considered DG, they can be dangerous. I had one come at me that expired about 2’ from me. It was very fast. Was a reflex shot generally directed at the front of the chest just below the chin. Bullet damaged the spine mid body enough to stop the party. Apparently my lead was off, he was just a blur.

I could have no more hit the head than I could have roped the moon. Just something to consider, small target, extreme duress, no warning and this cat came very fast. I suspect a Leopard would be all that and probably more, based on video clips I have seen.