Broadheads

[Scott CWO]

Penetration! I want the arrow to exit. I've seen too many elk wounded by someone's white-tailed deer setup with mechanical broadheads that do not penetrate enough. It is pure physics that energy used to open up is lost for penetration. A balance is needed. I prefer a fixed two-blade for elk and larger animals. Archers need to adjust their setups to the animal just like rifle hunters. It's funny how rifle hunters will own several rifles with several different calibers and bullet weights but some archers try to hunt almost everything in North America with their white-tailed deer setup. Elk are 4-5 times the size of a deer.

 

[BenKK]

May I ask, out of curiosity, what would the average whitetail setup be in terms of draw weight and arrow weight? I don’t know much about deer hunting but I’m interested in learning.

 

[DillonG]

May I ask, out of curiosity, what would the average whitetail setup be in terms of draw weight and arrow weight? I don’t know much about deer hunting but I’m interested in learning.

I don’t know what would be considered average, but I shoot 70lb draw weight and an arrow total weight of 527 grains. Works very effectively on IL deer.

 

[Scott CWO]

A lot of hyperbole on here. Arrow flight is very important but what happens after contact is made and penetration is what kills the animal. We have 35 archers on our schedule this year and have been doing this for 35 years. We have three elk units and four deer units, not to mention the moose, sheep and mountain goat draws yet to come. We will probably end up with close to 40 archers this year. I’ve seen WAY TOO MANY animals lost to lack of penetration due to two things, shooting too far and mechanical broadheads that open up too much to penetrate and get BOTH lungs. If you don’t get both lungs on an elk, you’re screwed and a complete pass through is even better. I’ve guided some seriously accomplished elk archers with multiple 350”+ class bulls to their credit who live in western states and hunt multiple elk states each year. Most of these guys have switched to two-blade heavier setups for elk and penetration. The same philosophy for tough, large African animals makes sense to me.

 

[firehuntfish]

Penetration! I want the arrow to exit. I've seen too many elk wounded by someone's white-tailed deer setup with mechanical broadheads that do not penetrate enough. It is pure physics that energy used to open up is lost for penetration. A balance is needed. I prefer a fixed two-blade for elk and larger animals. Archers need to adjust their setups to the animal just like rifle hunters. It's funny how rifle hunters will own several rifles with several different calibers and bullet weights but some archers try to hunt almost everything in North America with their white-tailed deer setup. Elk are 4-5 times the size of a deer.

Spot on!

 

[firehuntfish]

If you don’t get both lungs on an elk, you’re screwed and a complete pass through is even better. I’ve guided some seriously accomplished elk archers with multiple 350”+ class bulls to their credit who live in western states and hunt multiple elk states each year. Most of these guys have switched to two-blade heavier setups for elk and penetration. The same philosophy for tough, large African animals makes sense to me.

It absolutely applies to the larger African game as well.

A great deal of very creative and effective marketing has gone into the broadhead market especially where these expandable mechanical broadheads are concerned. Unfortunately, these folks care more about selling broadheads than they do about bowhunting ethics. While some mechanical designs have their place and perform well when part of a proper overall set-up, more often than not they are used by bow hunters whose set-ups do not generate enough momentum to overcome the friction loss created by mechanicals.

I would only add that penetration is the result of not just broadhead choice, but an equation of an overall proper combination of near perfect arrow flight, total arrow weight, front of center weight distribution, and the best possible broadhead and arrow shaft selection. A poorly tuned bow can result in the loss of penetration nearly as badly as the wrong broadhead design. Conversely, too light of an arrow lacking adequate f.o.c. will produce similar poor penetration results. All that said, broadhead design is the easiest part of the penetration equation to address for most bow hunting applications.

 

[DillonG]

A lot of hyperbole on here. Arrow flight is very important but what happens after contact is made and penetration is what kills the animal. We have 35 archers on our schedule this year and have been doing this for 35 years. We have three elk units and four deer units, not to mention the moose, sheep and mountain goat draws yet to come. We will probably end up with close to 40 archers this year. I’ve seen WAY TOO MANY animals lost to lack of penetration due to two things, shooting too far and mechanical broadheads that open up too much to penetrate and get BOTH lungs. If you don’t get both lungs on an elk, you’re screwed and a complete pass through is even better. I’ve guided some seriously accomplished elk archers with multiple 350”+ class bulls to their credit who live in western states and hunt multiple elk states each year. Most of these guys have switched to two-blade heavier setups for elk and penetration. The same philosophy for tough, large African animals makes sense to me.

Hey Scott, I have never hunted elk with a bow. I was curious, how good the blood trails are using 2 blade, fixed broadheads compared to 3 blade?

 

[Scott CWO]

Hey Scott, I have never hunted elk with a bow. I was curious, how good the blood trails are using 2 blade, fixed broadheads compared to 3 blade?

Not much difference but if you don’t get a pass through no matter what you use, it’s much tougher.

 

[rookhawk]

Not much difference but if you don’t get a pass through no matter what you use, it’s much tougher.

To save money, @Scott CWO we purchased one type of broadheads for all of us in the house to share. We did Iron Will 150gr single bevels without bleeders. The blood trails are not spectacular, but we always recover our deer within an hour and 120 yards. (30-45 mins waiting, then track the deer)

I wondered whether the bleeders would add significantly to the blood trails? The S-Cut entrance and exit would certainly have a desirable cross-cut for more dripping.

This wasn't an option for us because the kids need exceptional penetration (they have it) with heavy arrows, great FOC, but very weak draw weights and very poor draw lengths. Me on the other hand, I have a crazy draw length and can get the power and penetration at 64-68 pounds that most people get at 80lbs. (which is good, because I'm lazy and don't enjoy drawing much weight)

 

[Josh P]

I have virtually no experience hunting with a compound. In the longbow and recurves I have used it has become apparent that heavier arrows with solid single bevel fixed blade broadheads are where I am more comfortable. Every deer I’ve put an arrow through has been ~11-15 yards. When you skin out a deer and the leg bone you center punched to get to the vitals clanks onto the skinning shed floor in multiple pieces, you’re glad you went with more mass for more gas.

My experience level is not anywhere near making me an authority on the subject, but even my limited experience puts me in the heavy arrow camp.

Curious how many would argue for lighter arrow setups and still condemn 223 77gr users to purgatory for such heinous crimes against wildlife.

 

[sureshot375]

I’m not a world class archer, but I’ve killed a lot of animals with a bow. I’ve helped recover(and in some cases not recover) many many animals with friends and clients.

1. Just say no to mechanicals.
2. Light and fast is not the winning solution
3: some level of front of center balance is a must.

You can get down in the weeds on these things, and there are probably better setups, but I know this one works.

1. Easton FMJs, I’m guessing you will need 340s.
2. 75 gr brass inserts or 75gr steel outserts.
3 montec G5 100 grain. You may need to sharpen.
4. The iron will broadheads are a definite upgrade, but may be a little harder to tune.

 

[JCharp391]

I've been working on building heavier arrows and have been very surprised with how well they fly. Even the bigger broadheads are flying fairly decent out of my compound. I've got 2 different 200 grain heads and 1 300 grain head that flies like a dart. I also really enjoy tinkering around with arrow weight though so this whole process has been very enjoyable for me. I think that ultimately you should go with whatever you are confident with. If you have a particular setup that you might be doubting then don't use it. I feel super comfortable with the setup that I have and am looking forward to taking a few plains game animals with it.

 

[Scott CWO]

 

[Altitude sickness]

I have switched to Iron Will and a few other overbuilt BHs
Too many are not sharp enough or strong enough.

Also, the arrow needs to be flying perfectly straight and no flopping around when it impacts the animal.

if it’s flexing while it’s impacting the animal, you lose a ton of penetration. The nock needs to be perfectly behind the broad head as it penetrates.

I prefer stiffer spine than the charts call for and get my tune in other ways.

Here I did a destructive test on an Iron Will 250 Broadhead that I had already punched through a Cape buffalo.

I shot the same broadhead over and over again through Big Angus femurs.

I shot the same head multiple times and it showed no impact so I started shooting through two bones at a time. Eventually, the Ferrell showed damage, and I saw some minor chipping.

27” arrows, 1028 grains 75 pound Mathews

I have since switched to traditional equipment, so these factors are even more important

 

[archer36]

View attachment 674194

The mechanical broadhead is by far, the most used broadhead in DEER hunting, so finding these in processed deer is not surprising. Are we to assume that no fixed heads were found because none were previously wounded with one? Looks like to me that whoever took this picture has something against Rage heads (or knockoffs) because all (except for a Grim Reaper) that is pictured here. I personally have no experience with them. Also, it's intersting that all the heads are still attached to the shafts. They could have been easily removed by unscrewing them, even if still in the animal. Maybe I am assuming too much. You can't deny the efficacy of a large cut, 2, 3 or 4 mechanical head. BUT, you have to have the KE to use their benefits or they becomes a liability. It may not be fair to blame the broadhead but instead, the user who made a poor choice based on their equipment. You will NOT find (for the most part) a deer hunter using a small diameter, 2 blade, fixed head. The damage and blood flow resulting from large diameter mechanical heads is a game changer. But, these heads are not designed to be effective on large bones. It's just pure physics. A large object is harder to push through a bone than a small object.
I hunted Eland in South Africa and chose to use a fixed head. I exclusively use mechanical heads out of my crossbow for deer hunting at home. It's not fair to say that one head is superior to the other. It's the combination of KE, blade and ferrule strength, and arrow weight that is appropriate for the game that matters. It's not a 1 size fits all situation. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BSO Dave]

Maybe I am assuming too much. You can't deny the efficacy of a large cut, 2, 3 or 4 mechanical head. BUT, you have to have the KE to use their benefits or they becomes a liability.

You make some valid points. However, the statement above is a critical consideration that FAR TOO MANY hunters fail to understand...

As I have said many times, too many hunters fall for the marketing whether it is in the form of fast bows or huge cutting diameter mechanicals promising huge holes and rivers of blood! That's the more likely reason the majority of those broadheads in Scott's photo are mechanicals...

In my experience of setting up hunting bows for hundreds of hunters over last 2 decades, the majority of bowhunters DO NOT shoot set-ups that are capable of producing the amount of momentum necessary for the proper deployment of the vast majority of these mechanical broadhead designs. Yet, as you alluded to, they are very popular... Far too many bowhunters simply screw on a broadhead that they bought for no other reason that the marketing hype and go hunting without any field testing or regard as to the limitations of their own personal set-ups...

Another point you make that I agree with is that these designs are not effective on large bones... I would take it even farther by saying they aren't really designed to penetrate any bones. By design, most mechanical designs often break, bend, and deflect when they contact even rib bones. Even perfectly placed shots with powerful set-ups result in the broadhead emerging mangled most of the time... It's difficult enough to make a lethally placed shot without all of the other variables that contribute to failure... My view, and the advice I give to my clients is why even take the chance with a known avoidable variable...?

Two of my all-time favorite memes...

 

[archer36]

You make some valid points. However, the statement above is a critical consideration that FAR TOO MANY hunters fail to understand...

As I have said many times, too many hunters fall for the marketing whether it is in the form of fast bows or huge cutting diameter mechanicals promising huge holes and rivers of blood! That's the more likely reason the majority of those broadheads in Scott's photo are mechanicals...

In my experience of setting up hunting bows for hundreds of hunters over last 2 decades, the majority of bowhunters DO NOT shoot set-ups that are capable of producing the amount of momentum necessary for the proper deployment of the vast majority of these mechanical broadhead designs. Yet, as you alluded to, they are very popular... Far too many bowhunters simply screw on a broadhead that they bought for no other reason that the marketing hype and go hunting without any field testing or regard as to the limitations of their own personal set-ups...

Another point you make that I agree with is that these designs are not effective on large bones... I would take it even farther by saying they aren't really designed to penetrate any bones. By design, most mechanical designs often break, bend, and deflect when they contact even rib bones. Even perfectly placed shots with powerful set-ups result in the broadhead emerging mangled most of the time... It's difficult enough to make a lethally placed shot without all of the other variables that contribute to failure... My view, and the advice I give to my clients is why even take the chance with a known avoidable variable...?

Two of my all-time favorite memes...

View attachment 674242
View attachment 674243​

Agree. But, there are countless reports of the effectiveness of these heads. I don't think you are going to find a deer hunter that will use a small cut, two blade broadhead. The main problem with fixed heads today is with fast crossbows. Once you get past 400 fps, they tend to go squirrly. So, you are stuck using a mechanical. There are newer produced mechanicals that are very durable. Look at broadhead tests on Lusk Archery. The Sevr broadheads have fetched their highest ratings. Broadhead design and durability is barely keeping pace with advancements in speed and KE. A head that held together 10 years ago doesn't stand a chance shooting out of a bow generating 175+ of KE. So, once again, it's all about the right broadhead for the intended game. I would not count out mechanicals (good ones) for just about any game except for the biggest ones where penetration is paramount.
Keep in mind when I speak of KE, I'm referring to crossbows. I used a recurve and compound bow for 40 years but have needed to switch to a crossbow for a few reasons.

 

[Scott CWO]

The mechanical broadhead is by far, the most used broadhead in DEER hunting, so finding these in processed deer is not surprising. Are we to assume that no fixed heads were found because none were previously wounded with one? Looks like to me that whoever took this picture has something against Rage heads (or knockoffs) because all (except for a Grim Reaper) that is pictured here. I personally have no experience with them. Also, it's intersting that all the heads are still attached to the shafts. They could have been easily removed by unscrewing them, even if still in the animal. Maybe I am assuming too much. You can't deny the efficacy of a large cut, 2, 3 or 4 mechanical head. BUT, you have to have the KE to use their benefits or they becomes a liability. It may not be fair to blame the broadhead but instead, the user who made a poor choice based on their equipment. You will NOT find (for the most part) a deer hunter using a small diameter, 2 blade, fixed head. The damage and blood flow resulting from large diameter mechanical heads is a game changer. But, these heads are not designed to be effective on large bones. It's just pure physics. A large object is harder to push through a bone than a small object.
I hunted Eland in South Africa and chose to use a fixed head. I exclusively use mechanical heads out of my crossbow for deer hunting at home. It's not fair to say that one head is superior to the other. It's the combination of KE, blade and ferrule strength, and arrow weight that is appropriate for the game that matters. It's not a 1 size fits all situation. Just my 2 cents.

I have seen the most problems with Rage. They have given me lots of rage from losing several wounded elk and deer that clients hit perfectly. I don’t allow them anymore. Even penetrating deer can be a problem. Don’t assume that the heads found in the photo were lethal. Many were found in deer killed by rifle hunters. If I can find it, I will post a picture of a the ribcage of a deer a client wounded with a mechanical that we later killed with another client with a rifle. We got lucky to find that deer. Most deer we don’t recover, we never see again. They die a slow death from sepsis or the coyotes get them when they get sick. Wild animals don’t have the benefits of soap, antiseptics and antibiotics.

For mule deer, we are hunting the Eastern Plains of Colorado. It is open country with sandhill choppy terrain that makes stalks with a bow possible. In this environment, I get to see deer grow bigger each year but even in this open country, the vast majority of wounded deer are never seen again. They get sick and die in some remote hole somewhere. We sometimes find them dead weeks later and miles away. We bow hunt the peak of the rut in November. Some wounded bucks are still seen for a few days chasing does and then get sick and disappear. I’ve been doing this for over thirty years and have seen it happen many times. I have guided out there for four weeks of bow season and four weeks of rifle season every year since 1997. I also guide elk for several weeks plus other game since 1991. Guides see patterns develop and evidence that hunters do not. I have guided September through January every year for 35 years plus I hunt myself when I can and in Africa about every year since 2012.

I am very secure in the evidence I have personally witnessed about a lack of penetration from most mechanical broadheads. Even a “good” mechanical head further limits the effective range for proper penetration but some people shoot them even farther because “they fly so good” and “shoot like darts.” I’ve heard it all before, many times.

 

[archer36]

I have seen the most problems with Rage. They have given me lots of rage from losing several wounded elk and deer that clients hit perfectly. I don’t allow them anymore. Even penetrating deer can be a problem. Don’t assume that the heads found in the photo were lethal. Many were found in deer killed by rifle hunters. If I can find it, I will post a picture of a the ribcage of a deer a client wounded with a mechanical that we later killed with another client with a rifle. We got lucky to find that deer. Most deer we don’t recover, we never see again. They die a slow death from sepsis or the coyotes get them when they get sick. Wild animals don’t have the benefits of soap, antiseptics and antibiotics.

For mule deer, we are hunting the Eastern Plains of Colorado. It is open country with sandhill choppy terrain that makes stalks with a bow possible. In this environment, I get to see deer grow bigger each year but even in this open country, the vast majority of wounded deer are never seen again. They get sick and die in some remote hole somewhere. We sometimes find them dead weeks later and miles away. We bow hunt the peak of the rut in November. Some wounded bucks are still seen for a few days chasing does and then get sick and disappear. I’ve been doing this for over thirty years and have seen it happen many times. I have guided out there for four weeks of bow season and four weeks of rifle season every year since 1997. I also guide elk for several weeks plus other game since 1991. Guides see patterns develop and evidence that hunters do not. I have guided September through January every year for 35 years plus I hunt myself when I can and in Africa about every year since 2012. I am very secure in the evidence I have personally witnessed about a lack of penetration from most mechanical broadheads. Even a “good” mechanical head further limits the effective range for proper penetration.

I can't disagree with you. You obviosly have a lot of experience. But, in my lifetime, I have probably killed about 150 animals with an arrow. Even if a person Guided for 30 years, he may not have seen this many animals fall to an arrow. Knowing your equipment and capabilities is important with any type hunting. If you hunted Cape Buffalo with a .22 rifle and didn't recover your animal, would you blame the ammo? Maybe it's an extreme example but it demonstates how hunters blame the equipment for their mistakes or limitations. A debate on ethics usually goes nowhere but a hunter has to be realistic about hunting distances. Just because a weapon can (theoretically) kill out to 100 yds doesn't mean it should be done., It's more complicated than just saying all Rage broadheads are bad. I never used one in my life but know people that swear by them. There are many different types of mechanical heads. Front deploying, rear deploying, locked blades, pivoting blades. Each has their benefits and disadvantages. Think about your equipment (KE), anticipated shooting distance, and size of game before picking a broadhead. One of them may give you a little better advantage to another.

 

[Scott CWO]

I can't disagree with you. You obviosly have a lot of experience. But, in my lifetime, I have probably killed about 150 animals with an arrow. Even if a person Guided for 30 years, he may not have seen this many animals fall to an arrow. Knowing your equipment and capabilities is important with any type hunting. If you hunted Cape Buffalo with a .22 rifle and didn't recover your animal, would you blame the ammo? Maybe it's an extreme example but it demonstates how hunters blame the equipment for their mistakes or limitations. A debate on ethics usually goes nowhere but a hunter has to be realistic about hunting distances. Just because a weapon can (theoretically) kill out to 100 yds doesn't mean it should be done., It's more complicated than just saying all Rage broadheads are bad. I never used one in my life but know people that swear by them. There are many different types of mechanical heads. Front deploying, rear deploying, locked blades, pivoting blades. Each has their benefits and disadvantages. Think about your equipment (KE), anticipated shooting distance, and size of game before picking a broadhead. One of them may give you a little better advantage to another.

I agree with some of your points but I’ve seen hundreds of animals taken by bow. You got that part wrong.