Broadheads

[Joey17]

I should note that those advocating for comically heavy setups as a must have seem to have exceptional media libraries full of fantastic harvests and great photos of their weapons of choice, and they seem to be exceptionally well experienced with said weapons!

Should I choose to lay down the bow after my next 100 big game harvests with it, I would certainly put great weight in their opinions on firearm and ammunition selection!

 

[rookhawk]

I should note that those advocating for comically heavy setups as a must have seem to have exceptional media libraries full of fantastic harvests and great photos of their weapons of choice, and they seem to be exceptionally well experienced with said weapons!

Should I choose to lay down the bow after my next 100 big game harvests with it, I would certainly put great weight in their opinions on firearm and ammunition selection!

You’re right, what do we know? No idea. My kid’s setup used the fundamentals I described. He’s been on pro staff for a bow company since he was 9. He was the youngest person to ever kill a bear with a bow in our State. He’s been on multiple wilderness area safaris doing spot and stalk bowhunting. Do we know it all? No. Is it working well for us? It is. Did we invent these concepts? Nope, Ashby, Ranch Fairy, and every physics teacher pretty much says the same thing.

You know who doesn’t agree with us? The local bowshop that has loads of junk made in China backed by millions of marketing dollars.

 

[DillonG]

I would also recommend getting a couple of good jigs and a set of diamond plates. I started sharpening all of my blades even if they were straight out of the package. That seems to help more than anything for penetration. I wouldn’t be too concerned about using a mechanical. They are more reliable than 10 years ago. If you want a 3 blade, I’ve used the dead meat 125gr head. It does leave a very impressive blood trail. My 2 blade single bevels (cut throat) left little to no blood trail. I only use 3 blade heads now. Montec or dead meat 125gr, pick your poison.

 

[Joey17]

200gr head, OR you can use a 150gr head and a stout insert. Six on one hand, half dozen on the other.

160-200 spine at 31.5” arrow and 650gr TAW is not absurd. If the arrow is shorter, then you need less spine.

I get 20% to 30% FOC by not using silly heavy GPI arrows that rob FOC. Use a lighter GPI arrow and put the weight in the insert and broadhead. Simple as.

There are hundreds of reasons to use a heavy arrow including superior penetration, harnessing more energy from a bow into the arrow rather than into vibration, etc, etc. There is only one reason to use a light arrow: Pin Gap. Hardly an issue for blind hunting where you can get a range before you shoot.

Can you shoot large animals with 535gr arrows rather than 650gr? Sure, but you give up a lot in the process, particularly momentum. And those that use those light arrows, are they buying the very best quality broadheads, razor sharp, that will have the best penetration? No. They are using the light broadheads that have a cost of $5 to manufacture that are sold at Walmarts and bowshops in every town.

If you’re going to spend the money to build a proper arrow, for no extra cost you might as well shoot excellence for no additional cost.

You are describing my heavy set up quite accurately sir. For most plains game, including the light skinned kudu, I will say these weights are excessive.

If you are sitting water and only shooting at 20 yards, sure shoot whatever. But at longer ranges you must consider yardage your sight is capable of, animals ability to move before arrow arrives, and flight trajectory for avoiding sticks, etc.

You’ve hit on another point I agree with you on - avoiding cheap crap. There are fine heads available at decent price points, but I don’t think that there is anybody here advocating for cheaper, just better suited.

You’re right, what do we know? No idea. My kid’s setup used the fundamentals I described. He’s been on pro staff for a bow company since he was 9. He was the youngest person to ever kill a bear with a bow in our State. He’s been on multiple wilderness area safaris doing spot and stalk bowhunting. Do we know it all? No. Is it working well for us? It is. Did we invent these concepts? Nope, Ashby, Ranch Fairy, and every physics teacher pretty much says the same thing.

You know who doesn’t agree with us? The local bowshop that has loads of junk made in China backed by millions of marketing dollars.

Ranch fairy and a man using a stick bow on dead game are odd appeals to authority here. Momentum is good but so is energy. Also, the trend of heavy heads with underpinned arrows saves a lot of animals. In the conversation about lethality here, you’ve never mentioned perfect arrow flight, which is hands down the most critical part of this, and one often compromised in the pursuit of arbitrary arrow measurements

 

[Lee M]

I wouldn’t shoot a gemsbok with less than a 650gr arrow. Agree with all you’ve stated.

Elk are big, but not that tough. A kudu, oryx, zebra, or wildebeest has much more tenacity.

I’ve taken these 4 animals multiple times with a setup of a 60-70 lb compound bow, 125-150 grain fixed broadhead with total arrow weight in the 500 grain range. No issues, numerous pass throughs. My 60 lb bow had a clean pass through on a kudu and a waterbuck last July. I would be surprised on this same result with a bull elk. I’ll test that theory in Sept. In my opinion an elk is tougher than any of these. Mature Bull elk are bigger (except zebra) and bigger boned. I had a 7mm mag break an elks shoulder and not penetrate to vitals. Bullet recoved was in great shape and mushroomed perfectly. We were fortunate to get this animal.

 

[rookhawk]

 

[Joey17]

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Sir I assure you I am familiar. I’ve read all the Ashby studies, and I have his book.

I only speak ill of this folly because I have followed it before and was LESS successful with it. I’m happy to go into this with you though.

As well meaning as Ashby is (I’ll avoid the term Dr. because his title has nil to do with the subject at hand), he was using a stick bow, and dropping draw weight until he no longer got pass throughs. You told me OP was doing the same, by all means I’d say go super heavy. I don’t disagree that heavier will get more penetration, discussion was on adequacy on PG.

Also, by bringing up Ashby, you’ve proven my point. He ranks penetration factors and has said many times start at the top then work down. First is structural integrity- we agree. No cheap crap, and we both like high quality heads and inserts. What is number 2? PERFECT ARROW FLIGHT - exactly what I said. You can’t sell it though, so the marketers (and yes ranch fairy is one) lock onto what they can sell - heavy stuff and higher foc than you can find elsewhere. But the perfect arrow flight is critical.

Also, on chart 10, he has a sample size of 52 shots. Under 625 he is at 71.4%, from 625-700 he is at 95.2%. 71.4 is the percent version of 5/7. We have debated the 95.2 but our nearest guess is that he meant 21/22, which would be 95.4. Either way - would you say 7 shots out of a 40lb stick bow into a propped up buffalo is a good sample size for what we are discussing? It’s not magic and to say it’s a 15% difference gives you some real scientific rounding errors…

 

[Joey17]

I agree in some sense. For max penetration, holding all else equal, yes definitely go ahead and crank up arrow weight and FOC. to get the best performance on medium sized plains game, for a variety of hunting scenarios, a more well balanced approach with perfect arrow flight is going to be far better. To say that an oryx requires 650 is just an unfounded claim, and if the range is 2 yards off at 40, he’s going to be shooting under its elbows. Pin gapping is also less precise with the wider pin gaps, even if you do have a perfect range.

 

[Lee M]

I am very familiar with Ashby. I like that kind of stuff and don’t question the data. I made 950 total weight arrows (including 250 grain 2 blade VPA broadhead) and took to Africa as i was considering a Giraffe. They flew great but outside of Giraffe or maybe Eland, i don’t are really needed. I ended up taking kudu, waterbuck, and Eland with my regular 500 gr set up. A friend has done the same. I’m not saying a heavier combo won’t penetrate more, I’ve just never had an issue with any animal up to and including Eland. And since this is what i use for all my bowhunting stateside, im used to the sights, arrow flight, etc.

 

[rookhawk]

I am very familiar with Ashby. I like that kind of stuff and don’t question the data. I made 950 total weight arrows (including 250 grain 2 blade VPA broadhead) and took to Africa as i was considering a Giraffe. They flew great but outside of Giraffe or maybe Eland, i don’t are really needed. I ended up taking kudu, waterbuck, and Eland with my regular 500 gr set up. A friend has done the same. I’m not saying a heavier combo won’t penetrate more, I’ve just never had an issue with any animal up to and including Eland. And since this is what i use for all my bowhunting stateside, im used to the sights, arrow flight, etc.

Here's my thinking on it based on my draw length (absurdly long) and normal setup I once used. My "America-arrow" from the bowshop was 585gr with pathetically weak Easton collars. By going to quality broadheads that were 150gr and going with an excellent insert system it was very easy to get to 650gr. The inconvenience of pin gap going from 500ish to 600ish grains? Minimal. The benefit? You get in that 650gr area and the potential to break bone increases quite a bit per the data.

Do you need 700-800-1000 grains for things other than buffalo/eland/giraffe and bigger? No, not at all. Is 650gr giving you quite an advantage statistically over 580gr for all the rest of the stuff whether in Africa or USA? It sure is. Might was well get higher FOC and hit that 650gr via a sturdy insert system.

 

[Joey17]

Here's my thinking on it based on my draw length (absurdly long) and normal setup I once used. My "America-arrow" from the bowshop was 585gr with pathetically weak Easton collars. By going to quality broadheads that were 150gr and going with an excellent insert system it was very easy to get to 650gr. The inconvenience of pin gap going from 500ish to 600ish grains? Minimal. The benefit? You get in that 650gr area and the potential to break bone increases quite a bit per the data.

Do you need 700-800-1000 grains for things other than buffalo/eland/giraffe and bigger? No, not at all. Is 650gr giving you quite an advantage statistically over 580gr for all the rest of the stuff whether in Africa or USA? It sure is. Might was well get higher FOC and hit that 650gr via a sturdy insert system.

Sure, but again - this is not a statistically sound claim based on sample size or repeatability, and you’re still missing more important factors for penetration - the most critical things are strength and stability and especially, arrow flight. Screwing on heavier heads to an existing arrow setup almost always screws up the spine and tune, and to hit an arbitrary number on weight, the benefit simply isn’t there - you also are ignoring margin of error if range is off a bit, animal moves, etc.

build a good, solid arrow. Get it flying perfect. Let the weight fall where it may. As long as it’s reasonable and you have good solid heads and a modern, well tuned compound, you’ll do just fine on any animal listed by the OP.

 

[BenKK]

Don’t follow us Aussie bowhunters too closely, we’ll warrant cancellation! Dr Ashby is a legend, I love his work, but time and technology do change and new things get discovered. None of us know everything. When I killed my first buffalo bull with a longbow I used a 1200 grain arrow. For my second I dropped down to 920 grains. Now I’m shooting compound and using 560 grains, which is a typical weight for Australian bowhunters. That’s from a 70lb bow. The new generation of trad guys are also going lighter in both draw weight and arrow weight, and their results are impressive. When you follow the Australian scene there is a large sample size of success on the big stuff using similar to what I’ve just described, many, many hundreds of bulls, conservatively.

 

[archer36]

Don’t follow us Aussie bowhunters too closely, we’ll warrant cancellation! Dr Ashby is a legend, I love his work, but time and technology do change and new things get discovered. None of us know everything. When I killed my first buffalo bull with a longbow I used a 1200 grain arrow. For my second I dropped down to 920 grains. Now I’m shooting compound and using 560 grains, which is a typical weight for Australian bowhunters. That’s from a 70lb bow. The new generation of trad guys are also going lighter in both draw weight and arrow weight, and their results are impressive. When you follow the Australian scene there is a large sample size of success on the big stuff using similar to what I’ve just described, many, many hundreds of bulls, conservatively.

The broadhead matters too. It's slow and heavy or light and fast. They each have their advantages. You can find the sweet spot with KE with some experimentation. The one thing about light and fast is trajectory. A flatter trajectory makes for less error at uncertain distances.