Bringing 2 guns on a dangerous game hunt?

[Altitude sickness]

The “Two is one” saying is from the Navy demolition and high explosive safety factor from redundancy. You don’t want a planted charge not detonating. It’s a pain to deal with unexploded charges.

IE two blasting machines, two separate Det cord, two blasting caps etc

 

[Doug Hamilton]

The “Two is one” saying is from the Navy demolition and high explosive safety factor from redundancy. You don’t want a planted charge not detonating. It’s a pain to deal with unexploded charges.

IE two blasting machines, two separate Det cord, two blasting caps etc

I also heard it.from Army and Marine veterans. In a firefight you really don't want to.run out of anything (like loaded magazines).

 

[Altitude sickness]

Every one uses the term now to describe any type of redundancy. But it originated with the US Navy and specifically originally pertained to demolition only.

One of the rare times we had the time or flexibility to take pictures.

In the early 90s a few of us were loaned out to a local base to dispose of some old ordinance, explosives and thousands of pounds of gun powder used in the battleship big guns. We had to use explosives at least once per year to keep our “Quals” up to date.

We could only blow 100 pounds of high explosives at a time. So not to tick off the locals. We dug holes for the H.E.

We also burned 5000 pounds of powder at a time. The powder was not contained so only burned in a huge fireball.

We used two separate lengths of Det Cord , or electric wires depending on the cap type. a cap in two separate blocks of C-4 and had 2 magnetos.

Walking up to 100 pounds of H.E. that didn’t go off and is primed is not a good idea.

I have a huge bandage on my thumb to prevent the C4 from getting into a small cut I had. It’s fairly toxic if burned or absorbed.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Every one uses the term now to describe any type of redundancy. But it originated with the US Navy and specifically originally pertained to demolition only.

One of the rare times we had the time or flexibility to take pictures.

In the early 90s a few of us were loaned out to a local base to dispose of some old ordinance, explosives and thousands of pounds of gun powder used in the battleship big guns. We had to use explosives at least once per year to keep our “Quals” up to date.

We could only blow 100 pounds of high explosives at a time. So not to tick off the locals. We dug holes for the H.E.

We also burned 5000 pounds of powder at a time. The powder was not contained so only burned in a huge fireball.

We used two separate lengths of Det Cord , or electric wires depending on the cap type. a cap in two separate blocks of C-4 and had 2 magnetos.

Walking up to 100 pounds of H.E. that didn’t go off and is primed is not a good idea.

I have a huge bandage on my thumb to prevent the C4 from getting into a small cut I had. It’s fairly toxic if burned or absorbed.

View attachment 673608View attachment 673609

Sounds like you know.

 

[One Day...]

I see you like eland...well, we got real lucky and took this eland near communal lands. Outrageous eland.

Speechless !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

And on communal lands around Hwange no less, where not a rabbit survives due to constant intense poaching.......................................

I am not sure, all kidding aside, that I know another hunter who has as much sustained luck when it comes to cutting track with amazing trophies.

Green Chile's trophy room must be something to behold.................

So heartfelt congratulations, My Friend.

I hunted the same area, with the same local PH from Bulawayo if memory serves, and all the PG we saw in 10 days were a couple of young impalas.....................................

 

[One Day...]

Two rifles, but to do what?

I think that this is the right question, and there are a number of different responses...

A purely mechanical backup?

I guess that to follow the trend of this thread, if 2 is 1 and 1 is 0, then in order to truly have 2 you would need 3, right?

Yes, Murphy invites himself to your safari, but I am on Red Leg's band wagon on this one, the odds are in your favor

I certainly respect rookhawk's experience, whom I trust, but it still seems extraordinary. I just cannot fathom how a twig small enough to wedge itself behind the safety could sheer off a roll pin And in this case, the rifle would still go bang after the chamber being loaded just before the final stalk...

In any case, if mechanical backup is the point, both calibers must be full fledged DG calibers. Yeah, 9.3 will do on Buffalo, but it is becoming really marginal on Elephant

I personally do not bring a purely mechanical backup on an African modern hunt. I may have thought differently 100 years ago for a 6 months true "safari" (journey) in the Lado Enclave...

A PG rifle on a DG hunt?

If, as Red Leg pointed out, you are not on a 3 month full-bag safari, then the chances to have serious PG hunting time are slim.

Yes some DG hunts end the first day, but this is the exception rather than the rule.

Also, the reality is that most good DG blocks (especially elephant blocks) are NOT good PG grounds, not to mention that, as already mentioned, communal land is generally very, very poor PG land due to intense poaching.

As to encounters of good fortune, it seems everyone on AH needs to stop by Green Chile's house before going to Africa to rub off some of his luck, and any scoped DG rifle in modern DG chambering will be up to the shot out to 200 yards: .416, .404, .458 Lott, etc. The lone exception may be the .458 Win in factory loads that tends to suffer from a rainbow trajectory. And of course the .375 is king, although one could argue that its true polyvalence comes at the cost of a bit of ooompth on the heavy stuff.

This being said, I do not think that there is anything wrong to have a second rifle in the Pelican 1750, because it costs nothing and does not materially change the hassle of schlepping the dang thing through airports, but do not expect to use it much, in most cases.

A different rifle for a different purpose?

Now, THAT makes a lot of sense to me, and this is what I did on my own elephant hunt on those same Hwange district communal grounds, and I was glad I did.

I had a .470 double for close hunting in dense jesse, which we did plenty of, and I carried this rifle all day, all 10 days; and I had a scoped .375 H&H loaded with 350 gr solids (I did not own the .458 Lott barrel at the time), on the shoulder of one of the trackers, in case I needed to reach out past 50 to 75 yards to take a dream 60 pounders at the other end of a clearing, or to take a representative trophy also on the other end of a clearing on the last day or so of the hunt, which is exactly what ended up happening.

Also, somewhere in my mind, the .375 H&H would have been just fine had we come across the next world-record three-toed-Unicorn (or Eland).

In conclusion...

In the vast, very vast, majority of cases, the DG rifle will not break, so a purely mechanical backup will likely never come off the rack. Yeah, the fecal matter occasionally flies into the propeller, but as Red Leg says, it you accept the odds on a Elk hunt, there is not much reason why the odds would be so different on an elephant hunt. So, one rifle is just fine, and a purely mechanical backup rifle will likely never come off the rack.

As to the chances to bag PG worth disturbing the elephant hunting block with a shot, they are very remote, especially on communal lands. So, one rifle is just fine, and a PG rifle will likely never come off the rack. Of course, if you are Green Chile, you will bump into something exceptional, then you will do just fine with almost any scoped bolt action .375 and up out to 200 yards. Heck, even the .458 Win with holdover on the backbone can reach...

To me, if the first rifle is an iron sighted double in .470 or .500, the useful second rifle in the Pelican 1750, is a scoped .375 with 350 gr solids. The logic still exists, I guess, with a .404 and a 9.3x62 but I see a lot more overlap between two scoped bolt actions in .404 and 9.3, than I see between a double .470 and a scoped .375.

As to me, on dedicated DG hunts, because I seemed to have developed the habit to carry every day, all day, the double, but to systematically in the end shoot with the scoped R8, I sold the double and now only take the R8 with its scoped .458 Lott barrel, which can do anything I need from 5 yards (including stopping duties if needed) to 200+ yards. I am not worried about the odds of it breaking down on me, and if I need iron sights for a follow up in dense jesse, it takes all of 10 seconds to take the scope off.

But because I like to amortize the costs and duration of the flights to and from Africa, I always combine a DG hunt with a PG hunt, often with different outfitters and in different places, so the Pelican 1700 always carries 3 barrels and 3 scopes, picked from .458 Lott, .375 H&H, .300 Wby, and .257 Wby, depending on the trip. Heck! this is why the R8 exists, and as stated before, whether there are 1, 2, or 3 barrels in the <62" and <50 lbs. changes nothing to costs, paperwork, or travel hassle, so, frankly, why not

 

[BJH65]

My experiences are similar to the general’s, in 48 years of hunting: climbing mountains in B.C. having to use my rifle as a climbing staff, Bob Marshall wilderness horseback hunt where again I used my rifle as a staff to help me get up the mountain, hunting extremely steep terrain of Western Montana after elk, several trips to Africa and many other places which included a few near catastrophic falls like sliding down a wet giant granite boulder about 15 yards on top of my Sako rifle, slipping on the moss covered rocks and submerging myself and my Model 70 in the Chulitna River in Alaska while hunting grizzly and various other slips and falls. I have been pretty hard on some of my rifles but never put one out of commission.

I’ve had to re check zero several times and make adjustments, not something you want to do while in the middle of a hunt but absolutely necessary for peace of mind. I would say my North American hunts were much harder on my rifles than Africa, especially if you’re climbing mountains. From reading other comments, I guess I’ve been lucky.

That is not to say I wouldn’t bring two rifles. It’s just as easy for me to bring two rifles in my pelican two gun case and which I have done before and will do again on our African hunt next year. Not so much for backup, more out of a desire to simply use the rifles as intended even if it doesn’t really make sense.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@Red Leg maybe I’m different but when I travel for a big hunt or a limited entry draw tag I almost ALWAYS bring 2 rifles or confirm there will be a second spare rifle in camp. I learned that lesson in Idaho using horses to hunt and had a little incident and cracked the stock on my 700 BDL. Bringing a back-up rifle came in handy on a OiL Oryx tag last year in New Mexico where I had to switch to my back-up rifle because my zero got knocked off somehow.

 

[375Fox]

I'm sure you've heard the expression, "Two is one, and one is none."

You’ll hear a frequent expression in Africa that goes “we will make a plan.” There’s usually a rental rifle not too far away in rare event your primary rifle should fail. I’ve had my bags not arrive, my ammo not arrive, and somehow the safari always still came together. I’ll take 2 rifles for two purposes but for pure redundancy I think unnecessary.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Two rifles, but to do what?

I think that this is the right question, and there are a number of different responses...

A purely mechanical backup?

I guess that to follow the trend of this thread, if 2 is 1 and 1 is 0, then in order to truly have 2 you would need 3, right?

Yes, Murphy invites himself to your safari, but I am on Red Leg's band wagon on this one, the odds are in your favor

I certainly respect rookhawk's experience, whom I trust, but it still seems extraordinary. I just cannot fathom how a twig small enough to wedge itself behind the safety could sheer off a roll pin And in this case, the rifle would still go bang after the chamber being loaded just before the final stalk...

In any case, if mechanical backup is the point, both calibers must be full fledged DG calibers. Yeah, 9.3 will do on Buffalo, but it is becoming really marginal on Elephant

I personally do not bring a purely mechanical backup on an African modern hunt. I may have thought differently 100 years ago for a 6 months true "safari" (journey) in the Lado Enclave...

A PG rifle on a DG hunt?

If, as Red Leg pointed out, you are not on a 3 month full-bag safari, then the chances to have serious PG hunting time are slim.

Yes some DG hunts end the first day, but this is the exception rather than the rule.

Also, the reality is that most good DG blocks (especially elephant blocks) are NOT good PG grounds, not to mention that, as already mentioned, communal land is generally very, very poor PG land due to intense poaching.

As to encounters of good fortune, it seems everyone on AH needs to stop by Green Chile's house before going to Africa to rub off some of his luck, and any scoped DG rifle in modern DG chambering will be up to the shot out to 200 yards: .416, .404, .458 Lott, etc. The lone exception may be the .458 Win in factory loads that tends to suffer from a rainbow trajectory. And of course the .375 is king, although one could argue that its true polyvalence comes at the cost of a bit of ooompth on the heavy stuff.

This being said, I do not think that there is anything wrong to have a second rifle in the Pelican 1750, because it costs nothing and does not materially change the hassle of schlepping the dang thing through airports, but do not expect to use it much, in most cases.

A different rifle for a different purpose?

Now, THAT makes a lot of sense to me, and this is what I did on my own elephant hunt on those same Hwange district communal grounds, and I was glad I did.

I had a .470 double for close hunting in dense jesse, which we did plenty of, and I carried this rifle all day, all 10 days; and I had a scoped .375 H&H loaded with 350 gr solids (I did not own the .458 Lott barrel at the time), on the shoulder of one of the trackers, in case I needed to reach out past 50 to 75 yards to take a dream 60 pounders at the other end of a clearing, or to take a representative trophy also on the other end of a clearing on the last day or so of the hunt, which is exactly what ended up happening.

Also, somewhere in my mind, the .375 H&H would have been just fine had we come across the next world-record three-toed-Unicorn (or Eland).

In conclusion...

In the vast, very vast, majority of cases, the DG rifle will not break, so a purely mechanical backup will likely never come off the rack. Yeah, the fecal matter occasionally flies into the propeller, but as Red Leg says, it you accept the odds on a Elk hunt, there is not much reason why the odds would be so different on an elephant hunt. So, one rifle is just fine, and a purely mechanical backup rifle will likely never come off the rack.

As to the chances to bag PG worth disturbing the elephant hunting block with a shot, they are very remote, especially on communal lands. So, one rifle is just fine, and a PG rifle will likely never come off the rack. Of course, if you are Green Chile, you will bump into something exceptional, then you will do just fine with almost any scoped bolt action .375 and up out to 200 yards. Heck, even the .458 Win with holdover on the backbone can reach...

To me, if the first rifle is an iron sighted double in .470 or .500, the useful second rifle in the Pelican 1750, is a scoped .375 with 350 gr solids. The logic still exists, I guess, with a .404 and a 9.3x62 but I see a lot more overlap between two scoped bolt actions in .404 and 9.3, than I see between a double .470 and a scoped .375.

As to me, on dedicated DG hunts, because I seemed to have developed the habit to carry every day, all day, the double, but to systematically in the end shoot with the scoped R8, I sold the double and now only take the R8 with its scoped .458 Lott barrel, which can do anything I need from 5 yards (including stopping duties if needed) to 200+ yards. I am not worried about the odds of it breaking down on me, and if I need iron sights for a follow up in dense jesse, it takes all of 10 seconds to take the scope off.

But because I like to amortize the costs and duration of the flights to and from Africa, I always combine a DG hunt with a PG hunt, often with different outfitters and in different places, so the Pelican 1700 always carries 3 barrels and 3 scopes, picked from .458 Lott, .375 H&H, .300 Wby, and .257 Wby, depending on the trip. Heck! this is why the R8 exists, and as stated before, whether there are 1, 2, or 3 barrels in the <62" and <50 lbs. changes nothing to costs, paperwork, or travel hassle, so, frankly, why not

For those of us that find the R8 to be too much money, two rifles in two chamberings makes the most sense. A .458 is great.for buffalo or elephant but not really that good for PG. On my last buffalo hunt / plains game hunt I found a .300 WM and a .458 WM in a wheeled twin rifle case worked perfectly. I did also include a spare scope, as that seams to.be where most failures occur. A 2-7 scope could be made to work for either rifle. Anyway, what's the point of owning many rifles if you aren't going to use them?

 

[Doug Hamilton]

You’ll hear a frequent expression in Africa that goes “we will make a plan.” There’s usually a rental rifle not too far away in rare event your primary rifle should fail. I’ve had my bags not arrive, my ammo not arrive, and somehow the safari always still came together. I’ll take 2 rifles for two purposes but for pure redundancy I think unnecessary.

Yep. I've never taken two big bores on a safari, but if I broke my 300 the .458 could be made to work for PG. Fortunately, I haven't had a rifle fail in Africa.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Red Leg maybe I’m different but when I travel for a big hunt or a limited entry draw tag I almost ALWAYS bring 2 rifles or confirm there will be a second spare rifle in camp. I learned that lesson in Idaho using horses to hunt and had a little incident and cracked the stock on my 700 BDL. Bringing a back-up rifle came in handy on a OiL Oryx tag last year in New Mexico where I had to switch to my back-up rifle because my zero got knocked off somehow.

Exactly!