Brass problem question

[Inline6]

Standard is 3 reloadings on a belt case. Any more than that and you run into this.

 

[sestoppelman]

Depends on how one sizes the case. If one sizes on the shoulder instead of the belt, it vastly increases case life. I get many loadings out of belted cases.

 

[CoElkHunter]

that case seems to have black powder fouling on the full neck and shoulder.
this indicates a lack of obturation on the neck when fired.
gas is blowing back around the outside of the case.
2 potential issues here.
necks too hard for the pressures being used, need partial annealing.
shoulder could be getting pushed back excessively on sizing.
looking in front of the belt there appears to be what could be a case head separation about to happen.
as the case headspaces on the belt, pushing the shoulder back more than necessary can cause this.
when reloading belted cases it is wise to set up the die to correctly headspace on the shoulder.
if you don't do this, treat brass as expendable, and leave it on the ground.
without seeing the case in the flesh, this is a guess.
bruce.

This is all very interesting. I've only ever neck sized non belted bottleneck cartridges. With a straight walled cartridge, such as a .458WM, does one always have to full length resize after trimming the case? And I guess since there is no case shoulder, it HAS to be headspaced on the belt? Probably stupid questions, but I've never reloaded a straight walled rifle cartridge before. Thanks!

 

[sestoppelman]

You size first, then trim if needed. The cases grow in the sizing die, not in the rifle chamber. And yes, where no shoulder, it has to headspace on the belt. But in the case of the belt, there is no real adjustment to be made as if it had a shoulder to adjust to. Just size the case until it easily chambers and done.

Just neck sizing is OK for target/practice loads but for hunting loads, one should either use new brass, or once fired and full length resized so they chamber easily. I use new brass that's run thru the sizing die, then load it.

 

[CoElkHunter]

You size first, then trim if needed. The cases grow in the sizing die, not in the rifle chamber. And yes, where no shoulder, it has to headspace on the belt. But in the case of the belt, there is no real adjustment to be made as if it had a shoulder to adjust to. Just size the case until it easily chambers and done.

Just neck sizing is OK for target/practice loads but for hunting loads, one should either use new brass, or once fired and full length resized so they chamber easily. I use new brass that's run thru the sizing die, then load it.

Yes, that's what I meant about trimming after sizing. I've only reloaded .270Win, .308Win, .22-250 and .223/5.6. I haven't reloaded my .338WM yet. But all of the factory rounds are fairly inexpensive, when compared to these larger bore rifles. This .458WM is new to me so I'd thought I would ask. Thank you very much for the info.

 

[Inline6]

You size first, then trim if needed. The cases grow in the sizing die, not in the rifle chamber. And yes, where no shoulder, it has to headspace on the belt. But in the case of the belt, there is no real adjustment to be made as if it had a shoulder to adjust to. Just size the case until it easily chambers and done.

Just neck sizing is OK for target/practice loads but for hunting loads, one should either use new brass, or once fired and full length resized so they chamber easily. I use new brass that's run thru the sizing die, then load it.

Actually the brass does grow in the chamber, that's why we have to resize.

I personally full length resize everytime. That way you have the same condition and you can find your most accurate load.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Actually the brass does grow in the chamber, that's why we have to resize.

I personally full length resize everytime. That way you have the same condition and you can find your most accurate load.

True about the brass expanding in the chamber. Ackley Improved cases are created by firing the base cartridge in the A.I. chamber and the brass expands in the chamber to form the Ackley Improved case version. My father-in-law does this with his 6mm Ackley Improved. However, I have found that if your reloading the brass for the SAME BOLT ACTION rifle it was shot in, a partial neck/shoulder sizing chambers well. I think this could be a problem if you are using a different rifle though as the chambers vary ever so slightly.

 

[Inline6]

True about the brass expanding in the chamber. Ackley Improved cases are created by firing the base cartridge in the A.I. chamber and the brass expands in the chamber to form the Ackley Improved case version. My father-in-law does this with his 6mm Ackley Improved. However, I have found that if your reloading the brass for the SAME BOLT ACTION rifle it was shot in, a partial neck/shoulder sizing chambers well. I think this could be a problem if you are using a different rifle though as the chambers vary ever so slightly.

I guess I should clarify, to get the most consistent and accurate results. Do some people get better results with just neck sizing yes. That usually stems from not putting in the effort to find the best load for that rifle.

Then again I fully prep my brass including annealing every time. But I expect a lot out of me and my rifles.

 

[sestoppelman]

Brass lengthens when sizing, it expands when shooting. Take fired brass and measure the length, then FL size it. It will be longer. Pretty basic stuff guys. The metal you squeeze together has to go somewhere doesn't it?

 

[Firebird]

Thank you all for the feedback I appreciate your time, not sure we solved the problem but certainly thought provoking. I'll post some pix shortly from my phone-
1. Decided the brass had seen too much use and will recycle\replace it. I have 80 pieces of once fired that I was going to use for the completed hunting load but will dedicate some of it to load work or buy some new.
2. I full length size my brass after each firing. I am using r-p on this one but I have no loyalty to a brass producer, mostly just whats available. Though I believe strongly in consistency from load to load.
3. I don't anneal my brass and never have. Only been loading my own for 10 years so maybe time to learn a new trick.
4. I tried three different powders. Retumbo gave best five shot group-see the pic with the quarter in it, but was too slow for any value. I'll revisit the process with once fired brass and seating depth at 3.600 per sierra spec. See attached e mail pic.
5. Love the idea of a thicker bullet wall and rapid expansion tip. Gameking one of my favorite bullets and this one (Gamechanger 165) did well in this rifle. I shouldv'e waited for the loading info to come out. This rifle is very fickle! Sierra initially said to use loading info for their bullets of similar weights-see attached from loading manual-but has improved that
6. Only had those two cases that wigged out-out of 80 plus total firings. The gunsmith used a paper clip with a hockey stick bend on the end and slid it up and down another fired case. We could feel the weak spot above the belt of the inside of the brass. That is how he determined the brass was aging and ready to replace-predicting the next crack from the inside out-He also told me the brass had at least six firings, which we argued about some, but its the same solution in any case-to replace the case.
7. Have worked up other loads in this rifle without issue (160 nosler accubond) but had newer pieces and parts back then and a miriad of printed data to work from. And thats when I was new and didn't have all this knowledge clogging the arteries in my brain!
So I will revisit this process when the weather cools back down (been shooting between 0600 and 0800) and I am confident I can make things work more harmoniously then-thank you all for the input.-

 

[Firebird]

Pix of stuff-

 

[CoElkHunter]

Brass lengthens when sizing, it expands when shooting. Take fired brass and measure the length, then FL size it. It will be longer. Pretty basic stuff guys. The metal you squeeze together has to go somewhere doesn't it?

Yes, very good point that the case lengthens when sized. Thanks!

 

[sestoppelman]

I have never annealed brass either, wont bother. All brass is annealed at the factory. I wont say there is no benefit, but to me its an unnecessary step in the process. Rem brass is good, but for better case life you might look at Win if they make it for this cal. RP tends to fail sooner in some cases.

 

[CoElkHunter]

This is all very interesting. I've only ever neck sized non belted bottleneck cartridges. With a straight walled cartridge, such as a .458WM, does one always have to full length resize after trimming the case? And I guess since there is no case shoulder, it HAS to be headspaced on the belt? Probably stupid questions, but I've never reloaded a straight walled rifle cartridge before. Thanks!

The "hits" just keep coming to me with MY new to ME CRF .458WM. Never owned a CRF before, and don't know any hunting buddies with them. Two of them have older Rugers, one in .338WM and one in .30-06, but as I've learned here from a OP, they aren't true CRFs. Anyway, so I measured (eyeballed it) the case length of a fired case and unfired case. They appear to be the same length. The fired case slips into the chamber nicely. I push the bolt forward, but the bolt won't lock closed. I put a loaded factory round singly into the chamber, close the bolt, but again the bolt won't lock closed. I guess one can't load a single round manually into the chamber with a CRF? I hate to air my ignorance on these subjects here on AH, but I don't have anybody I know for a frame of reference to ask. Thanks!

 

[sestoppelman]

Yes, most CRF wont feed like that unless the extractor is modified.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Yes, most CRF wont feed like that unless the extractor is modified.

Thank you!

 

[Eric Anderson]

I have never annealed brass either, wont bother. All brass is annealed at the factory. I wont say there is no benefit, but to me its an unnecessary step in the process. Rem brass is good, but for better case life you might look at Win if they make it for this cal. RP tends to fail sooner in some cases.

Brass work hardens quite rapidly. Every time you fire, and every time you resize, the neck gets harder, and more brittle.
Without annealing, I get maybe 4 reloads out of my 30-06 fired out of my M1. Annealing after every two reloads, I get 8. At 9 reloads, the neck is so thin they start cracking no matter how much I anneal.

 

[bruce moulds]

if the extractor will ride over a rim, it lacks one of the elements of true controlled round feed.
bruce.

Yes, most CRF wont feed like that unless the extractor is modified.

 

[CoElkHunter]

if the extractor will ride over a rim, it lacks one of the elements of true controlled round feed.
bruce.

Thanks for that! While your here, I wanted to ask you if a once fired .458WM case would HAVE to be full length sized or even trimmed, if the case has retained the same length as an unfired case and it slides into the chamber with ease? It would be fired in the same rifle. Of course, the inside of the case mouth would probably have to be expanded to accept another bullet? I'm just trying to figure out how to put the least stress on a case so it will last longer. I haven't tried that with a bottleneck type cartridge and have always neck/shoulder sized. I'm new to the straight walled rifle cases. I've only reloaded .45ACP and .357 Magnum straight walled handgun cartridges. You seem to be a very knowledgeable (along with others here on AH) handloader with experience in large bore rifle reloading. Thanks!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Standard is 3 reloadings on a belt case. Any more than that and you run into this.

OK, what was/is the purpose of the belt anyway? I see many of the older larger bore cartridges and newer larger bore cartridges without a belt? Question to anyone viewing this? Thanks!