Bolt up instead of safety switch?

[Sika98k]

I once had an ad with a 20 side by side. While quail hunting I reloaded and closed the action and one barrel fired. I couldnt imagine my finger was near the trigger so I tried it again with the same result. Finally figured out that one of the firing pins was stuck in the fire position so it automatically fired when the action was closed. Everyone was safe because it was pointed in a safe condition. I will never allow a firearm to be pointed at me and I will never point one at myself or at another person. I know one person who’s dead and another lost use of his knee from their own firearms. Twice I’ve ended hunts because some idiot couldnt control their muzzle.

This is why when you close a shotgun you bring the stock up to the action not vice versa. This is one of the many points on gun handling mentioned on our shoot.
It happened a week ago, gun went off, blew a nice hole in the ground. Man went home with just the one sock .
Diagnosed as a stuck firing pin.

 

[Longwalker]

For DG, a sling isnt ideal for obvious reasons.

Not obvious to me! During 95% of all hunting, including dangerous game hunting, the hunter is not in the immediate presence of game. In those most desirable other situations, the rifle is much more useful, safe and available when carried in two hands. I also find it quicker, safer, and generally more reasonable to bring my slung rifle to aim than a rifle carried in the ridiculous “Africa carry” position. The myth of a sling getting in the way is just that - a myth. And, QD swivels take care of any remaining objections to the extremely small, but admittedly real risk of a sling somehow interfering with a shot that must be quickly made in self defence.

 

[mark-hunter]

Many clay pigeon ranges, that I have visited, ban using a sling on the gun, on the range. There must be a reason for that.

 

[mikecatt13]

Not obvious to me! During 95% of all hunting, including dangerous game hunting, the hunter is not in the immediate presence of game. In those most desirable other situations, the rifle is much more useful, safe and available when carried in two hands. I also find it quicker, safer, and generally more reasonable to bring my slung rifle to aim than a rifle carried in the ridiculous “Africa carry” position. The myth of a sling getting in the way is just that - a myth. And, QD swivels take care of any remaining objections to the extremely small, but admittedly real risk of a sling somehow interfering with a shot that must be quickly made in self defence.

There is absolutely no way you can get me to carry a gun with a sling on it though brush where it can get hung up, or where a rapid reload is likely needed and a sling can complicate weapons manipulations, in a situation where people's lives may depend on nothing going wrong. No chance. Sling carry is also the most likely for something to go wrong under stress trying to deploy the weapon rapidly in both the aspects of a safety and just not being able to deploy the weapon in time.

I'm interested to test different non-sling carry methods on a legitimate shot timer during my practice. Nothing will beat 2 handed carry, my guess would be trail carry shortly behind, but african carry is not as slow as you would think either.

 

[Nevada Mike]

This is why when you close a shotgun you bring the stock up to the action not vice versa. This is one of the many points on gun handling mentioned on our shoot.
It happened a week ago, gun went off, blew a nice hole in the ground. Man went home with just the one sock .
Diagnosed as a stuck firing pin.

I think that break open shotguns and DRs, while they have many excellent virtues, are more dangerous than bolt rifles. Especially if the bolt gun has a three position safety.

The SxS or O/U shotgun/rifle is SOMETIMES equipped with an intercepting sear that will interrupt the fall of the tumbler (hammer) if the main sear is jarred out of the bent. This means that the gun cannot be fired unless the trigger is pulled. However, the vast majority of shotguns do not have this feature and rely only on a simple trigger locking safety catch. As pointed out in a couple other posts, break open guns can fire on closing and on heavy recoiling rifles firing one barrel may jar loose the hammer on the neighboring barrel resulting in 'doubling'. The design of most single triggers on double guns is often problematic as well and accidental discharges can and do happen.

When bird hunting the danger is multiplied - dogs, hunting partners, fast flushing birds going in various directions and excited hunters swinging shotguns account for a lot of injuries to dogs and people.I do a lot of bird hunting and am very careful about who I hunt with.

Muzzle control is always the ultimate answer to gun safety. Mt father was an NRA shooting and safety instructor. If he ever saw one of us boys handling a gun unsafely, even swinging the muzzle of an 'unloaded' gun across someone he would take the gun away from us and lock it up for 30 days. no excuses accepted. I learned early.

Despite that early training, I had an incident some years ago while hunting quail in the high sage brush of south central Washington. Dog on point, I approached for the flush, not seeing my partner relocate froward and behind some brush ahead of me. Birds flushed, I fired as the birds went out over the top of the brush and peppered the scalp of my friend who was unseen in the line of fire. It was my fault for not knowing exactly where he was when I fired - thought that he was to my right while I approached the point. He knew the dog was on point and I never understood why he moved down the gully behind the brush in front of me. This spooked the hell out of me and re-doubled my concern for safety habits when hunting.

Murphy's Law is always in force.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello,

I hate an open bolt as a safety measure. I think it is VERY unstable and trouble prone. No good in any hunting situation.
To me there are only two ways to carry a long gun in hunts, depending the exact moment:
-Full magazine and chamber empty.
-Full magazine, loaded chamber AND safety on.

Plus: The muzzle pointing in a TOTALLY SAFE DIRECTION!!

Best!

CF

 

[Vintageguy]

There is also this style and you don’t loose your straight up position like you do with the Buehler style. I have both, the Buehler is quicker but that style is infamous for allowing the bolt to open with some pressure while on safe on many installations.

 

[Pole Pole]

Did not read all of above so not sure if this was covered. We did it back in the 1970s elk hunting. The idea was to be able to avoid the noise of chambering a round but can’t recall that this much stealth was ever needed. May not be the safest but here goes. While chambering a round pull and hold the trigger back and lower the bolt. Then all you have to do to cock the gun is raise the bolt and come straight down. I’m not recommending this. It took a while to get use to the idea. Try it with a unloaded gun always pointed safety.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Did not read all of above so not sure if this was covered. We did it back in the 1970s elk hunting. The idea was to be able to avoid the noise of chambering a round but can’t recall that this much stealth was ever needed. May not be the safest but here goes. While chambering a round pull and hold the trigger back and lower the bolt. Then all you have to do to cock the gun is raise the bolt and come straight down. I’m not recommending this. It took a while to get use to the idea. Try it with a unloaded gun always pointed safety.

@Pole Pole
Not a good idea as the firing pin is resting on the primer. If dropped to big of a chance of it going bang.
I only chamber a round when game is sighted and I'm ready to shoot.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

@Pole Pole
Not a good idea as the firing pin is resting on the primer. If dropped to big of a chance of it going bang.
I only chamber a round when game is sighted and I'm ready to shoot.

Yes, a bad idea. It’s like carrying a Colt SAA with all 6 loaded.

 

[Tanks]

For PG, many would say a sling is easiest probably. For DG, a sling isnt ideal for obvious reasons...

I sure appreciate it when hunting elephant and walking miles and miles. I also use a "hasty sling" for shooting support when shooting offhand. I don't use sticks when hunting elephant. I'd rather the PH carry his double instead of sticks.

FYI

 

[Red Leg]

For PG, many would say a sling is easiest probably. For DG, a sling isnt ideal for obvious reasons. I find African carry much less tiring than 2 handed by a good margin or even trail carry...but my rifles planned to go to africa have decockers.

I have a lot of hiking with my guns planned before my first safari so I plan to experiment with with various methods and despite decockers pick the best combination of energy conservation and muzzle direction.

Could not disagree with you more.

Try showing up at a quail hunt in Georgia and carry a double shotgun that way. You would be sent home within a couple of minutes and never invited back. They would use the incident as an example in local hunter safety classes for years. Other than wandering around with a bolt up on a loaded chamber, the only thing I can think of more inherently dangerous - particularly for a client - is the "African" carry.

If a client hunts with a sling at home, he should use one in Africa. In fact, the safest and fastest carry I can use is slung muzzle down over the left shoulder. Some fairly experienced PHs like Len Taylor uses that carry as well. Works with a double just as well as a bolt action.

 

[Scott CWO]

On most PG hunts in SA or Namibia, the PH will likely insist on an empty chamber. In 99% of opportunities, there is ample time to chamber a round as you prepare for the shot. Hence, not an issue for hunter or PH. DG areas are a different matter. Even there, if the PH doesn't know his client, an empty chamber eliminates one of the major injury potentials. One reason, I like Blaser and Krieghoff designs, is that I can maintain a round in the chamber with an un-cocked rifle. It is also why an inexperienced hunter with a loaded double rifle is probably about as dangerous as the buffalo or elephant they are pursuing. I personally hate the open bolt technique. No offense intended, but I am uncomfortable afield with someone who does that. There is just so much potential for a lot of things to go wrong - brush - dropped rifle - inattention - etc, etc. If we are among big hairy beats, I would much rather have someone with me with a loaded chamber, on safe, exercising proper gun handling technique.

I assume you know, a low profile safety for a mauser action is one of the easiest conversions that can be made, with no change to the bolt. Put the flag in a drawer so you have it if you ever want to return the rifle to original condition.

+1

 

[Scott CWO]

The bottom-line stark reality is that unless you are directly involved in a follow up on wounded dangerous game, or in a Leopard blind, or in an up-close-and-personal stalk on DG at 30 yd, etc. there is no reason why you should have a round in the chamber.

Now to explain a bit this terminal statement

Yes the best safety is between the ears; yes muzzle discipline prevents safety failures from having catastrophic consequences; yes a bolt-mounted firing pin-blocking safety (whether vertical like the Mauser flag; horizontal like the Winchester 3 position; lateral like the Weatherby, etc.) is pretty reliable; yes, yes, yes... but the bottom line is why would one carry a loaded hunting rifle (i.e. a round in the chamber - as opposed to a munitioned rifle i.e. rounds in the magazine) unless there is a need for imminent shooting? A hunting rifle simply does not serve the same purpose as a concealed carry weapon or an infantry CQB weapon.

There is no real NEED to load one's rifle until one is about to get on the sticks, or in otherwise shooting position. Personally, I always ask the PH to witness my empty chamber and hear my dry firing "click" after killing an animal, and ALWAYS before getting in the truck. This is out of both practical safety and courtesy, and when I have my boys or girls with me, we cross safety-check our rifles. Old military habits die hard

I thought the only exception would be my Krieghoff double, with its independent cocking mechanism, but my PH in Limpopo still asked me to carry it without ammo in the pipes until we started an actual buff stalk. I certainly understood and was happy to oblige... Nothing scares me more than a loaded double with a traditional shotgun safety on someone's shoulder...

I have (so far?) in 40 years of hunting never been in a situation where not having a round in the chamber has caused me to miss an opportunity. I have either stumbled at 30 ft into animals I had not been aware of and that bolted explosively on me, in which cases there either was no shot anyway, or, like in a reload after a first shot, a quick handling of the bolt was fast enough; or, during successful stalks, I have always been able to load quietly enough that animals 50 or 100 yd away did not hear it.

As to bolt open, it is an old practice in many places, including Africa, to carry a rifle with a bolt half open. On many Mauser 98 and myriad clones, ZKK 602, CZ 550, etc. there is actually a half way point where the bolt starts to close but is not cocked, and it is maintained in position by the pressure of the striker spring before it is fully compressed by closing the bolt down and forward. Is it safe? Well, the rifle certainly cannot fire in this position, so the answer ought to be yes, right? The challenge, however, is that safety is most likely to be required not when everything goes right, but when everything goes wrong. Is it possible to trip and fall precisely on the right hand that holds the rifle with bolt open, get it closed accidentally under the weight of the body over the hand in the fall, and getting it fired if the trigger hits a rock or a twig? I guess it could happen... Is it safer than a firing-pin blocking safety? Probably not... Are we discussing far fetched scenarios? Yes... But in my experience (more military than hunting related) accidental discharges happen either out of sheer stupidity, in which case they are negligent discharge, or through an accumulation of indeed very far fetched and improbably events...

Empty chambers have never killed anyone. I default to this one...

Just my $0.02...

A parting thought, which I am sure will get me plenty of flak is that I do not systematically default to the judgement of the PH, whether in Africa or anywhere else. I had one PH younger than my kids who clearly did not have half my shooting/hunting experience and who made blatant error of judgments; I have heard more PHs than one would care to hear say things entirely false re. rifles, ammo, etc.; I have seen one PH be blatantly unsafe in his gun handling; etc. ... and I have, of course, seen PHs who clearly mastered all aspects of their job better than I could ever hope to do myself... The point is that if an accidental discharge happens and somebody gets hurt or killed, your PH will not be the one in the accused box, you will...

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