Big Bore Association of South Africa shoot 12 Feb 2022

[IvW]

Boy, I can't believe that people go for that...

So, because someone somewhere didn't know how to properly run their gun and they short stroked it, we now handicap everyone and train them to operate the firearm as though they will short stroke it.

Seriously, that's a losing mindset from the get go.

Practice properly running your firearm so you know what you're doing, then, well then do that in the field. If you have a fail to feed, a fail to eject etc... Just like in a IDPA match or whatever, with a handgun, you practice how to rectify the situation.

You don't now completely change how you run your gun just assuming that the failure will always occur thus handicapping yourself always.

Practice, and further, practice clearing a malfunction with the gun mounted, if it's a simple malfunction then it shouldn't be an issue, if it isn't a simple malfunction, well, then it doesn't matter, you either have the time now to pull the gun down and rectify it or you were always going to be dead, as it's not a simple malfunction and will take time to deal with.

You can watch around you with the gun mounted just fine, simply lower the barrel a little, if that is even needed.
Next, if you have more time and aren't in immediate need to fire, put the butt under your armpit and have it at the alert low ready.

Next, you can of course still completely lower the gun, or do whatever else you want, throw it in the river, pour whisky down the barrel then drink the whisky from the barrel... whatever

But planning to fail, well, watch the hippo charge scenario above...

Learn and train how to properly cycle your bolt gun from your shoulder, practice to clear failures if they happen, then, prepare your equipment and check it to make sure they don't.

Train everybody to the level of the lowest common denominator.... get outta here with that

We're better than that, but of course, it is also your life, and I believe in individual freedom, so do as you wish, and I wish you the best.

Totally agree....from 375 H&H to 500 Jeff....I cringe when right in the beginning the bolt is grasped by the thumb and the fore finger.....after that it goes south...

Have to bear in mind whi actually attend these courses as well so I suspect that a lot of compromise is brought in to get some middle ground....

 

[Frederik]

Change the scoring system and I will be back....or even allow me to do it my way and ignore my "points" and I will also be back....I dont need a score.....

My 2c

No problem you just don't hand in your scoring ticket would love to see you there.

 

[Frederik]

Muzzzle Break ???

 

[VertigoBE]

Totally agree....from 375 H&H to 500 Jeff....I cringe when right in the beginning the bolt is grasped by the thumb and the fore finger.....after that it goes south...

Have to bear in mind whi actually attend these courses as well so I suspect that a lot of compromise is brought in to get some middle ground....

@IvW would you be able to demonstrate your view on proper reloading of a bolt action?

Perhaps with a video?

Thanks

 

[DWB]

I enjoy testing out the different techniques etc, so over time I have definitely learnt I am faster when cycling the bolt in the shoulder, but can revert to cycling with the rifle in the hip just as easily.

BASA definitely tests a rifle, my own 450 Rigby took a lot of tweaking even in the ZKK602 action to get the cases to eject 100% smoothly as the rear end was sometimes a bit slow to get out as I already had another round moving towards the chamber. Most gunsmiths can not and do not simulate these high stress fast shooting situations.

I am a poor to average shot in general, so I try and save time on the range with movements and use that extra time to take the shot. But I want to know that my rifles can keep up with however fast I can operate them.

Here is a video of me just trying to see how fast I can push my 404 Jeffery:

And here I am shooting my 450 Rigby with 480gr @ 2400fps on a BASA range:

In the end I believe practice with what works for you - But make sure your gun works!

Frederik shoots much better than me and faster than me most of the time, even though I am reasonably fast reloading in the shoulder (I run slower OK )

 

[R eight]

Those shoots/matches look like great fun. I would think that they provide a perfect opportunity for owners/shooters to get to know their rifles and discover any faults with the firearm or their technique.

Federick, I noticed that you said a formal was applied to the score/results to allow for different cartridges / energy ...just wondering if you apply any handicap for those using optics (red dots/scopes) over iron sights.

thanks for posting the videos .

 

[calling4life]

Muzzzle Break ???

Nope, muzzle brake, I also added weight and have a FalconStrike hydraulic recoil pad on it. Limbsaver Nitro was on it in that video.

Degenerative Disc Disease, I have multiple herniated discs in my neck, the rest are bulging, severe arthritis and so on...

Father has Rheumatoid Arthritis so I may end up in that wagon as well.

Should that happen you may find me cycling a bolt like you for the additional leverage, personally, I'm hoping to die in my sleep well before then, I'd like to miss one of my families ailments.

But as this spinal issue progresses and more and more issues arise it'll hit a point where I'll be more interested in taking a long walk off a short dock as opposed to continuing with the misery, so that may get me first as well.

Until then, do what you can to make things possible. Plus, hearing protection being what it is today, not only can you protect your hearing but you'll hear better with the electronic options out there. So if you need to hear a pro-hunter whisper instructions, you're better off with the hearing protection.

And then of course you get the protection from hearing damage. Custom fit to muffs depending upon one's likes and dislikes and the activity. My size 13 battery lasts about 3 weeks of daily use and I can carry enough for years in an old pill bottle. Case of 60 costs me $18

In the muffs I'll re-charge the triple As I use after a long day. I've used these in temps to -40 hunting coyotes up by where I went to college in Grand Forks, ND. They've worked very well for $60, very well.

 

[R eight]

Nope, muzzle brake, I also added weight and have a FalconStrike hydraulic recoil pad on it. Limbsaver Nitro was on it in that video.

Degenerative Disc Disease, I have multiple herniated discs in my neck, the rest are bulging, severe arthritis and so on...

Father has Rheumatoid Arthritis so I may end up in that wagon as well.

Should that happen you may find me cycling a bolt like you for the additional leverage, personally, I'm hoping to die in my sleep well before then, I'd like to miss one of my families ailments.

But as this spinal issue progresses and more and more issues arise it'll hit a point where I'll be more interested in taking a long walk off a short dock as opposed to continuing with the misery, so that may get me first as well.

Until then, do what you can to make things possible. Plus, hearing protection being what it is today, not only can you protect your hearing but you'll hear better with the electronic options out there. So if you need to hear a pro-hunter whisper instructions, you're better off with the hearing protection.

And then of course you get the protection from hearing damage. Custom fit to muffs depending upon one's likes and dislikes and the activity. My size 13 battery lasts about 3 weeks of daily use and I can carry enough for years in an old pill bottle. Case of 60 costs me $18

In the muffs I'll re-charge the triple As I use after a long day. I've used these in temps to -40 hunting coyotes up by where I went to college in Grand Forks, ND. They've worked very well for $60, very well.

You could probably get some more good use with those muffs with this

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[Gert Odendaal]

Not my idea or the way I was trained to do it.....

Piet Nel /Dr. Kevin Robertson explained to us on the buffalo/elephant hunting course that the reason you keep your eye on the departing buffalo/elephant is to know where the one you shot at is going for a fast follow up shot ...as well as make sure you see the extracted case ejecting...

 

[IvW]

@IvW would you be able to demonstrate your view on proper reloading of a bolt action?

Perhaps with a video?

I am not one for videos but perhaps an explanation might give some insight.

First of I am not sure who receives this training....I would imagine more hunters and game rangers than profesiinal hunters or tour guides....

What they do have right is that the actiins need to be forcefull....

Now having the bolt head between thumb and fore finger is a bad idea...this is one of the main reasons for short stroking...
I use the palm of my hand up back all the way just swivel your palm and all the way forward and down....no chance of stopping the bolt until it is all the way back....simple...

Dont know of any ph or dangerous game foot safari guide who uses the optics as shown on this video....I personaly use iron sight and prefer ghost ring rear sight not shallow V..

The moment the shot is fired the rifle recoils as it goes back your head lifts off the stock and out of the way as your palm goes to bolt and the up and rear stroke starts as the rifle comes back down the revers takes place and the bolt is slammed shut and your cheak welds back onto the stock...while your head is off the stock your sight should remain on whatever you have shot at and not down at the action with your rifle down out of your shoulder....
I might add that a DG game rifle needs to be a 100% functional and you should sort out any issues before using it as a dg rifle or get rid of it and find ine that is 100% reliable.

After the first shot if a second is availible it should be taken on dg. If not and the animal is still in view move and position for second shot. If availible take it if not keep moving if you have to and trying to get that second shot only if the animal is visible.

If a second shot was taken and movement is posible with animal still in sight this is the time to reload again without the need to look down at your rifle action.

As soon as sight is lost of the animal the persuit should stop and it is time to have a quick break, reload and reflect on what happened and the plan made before follow up.

We did a test many moons ago...4 esperienced hunters and ph's...two using doubles and two using bolt actions....it was not only speed but also acuracy so you had to hit the target(in the vitals)and if memory serves me correctly the distance was 20 or 25 meters and the target was a buffalo(with the vitals marked on the back).
458 Lott and 500 Jeff vs 470 NE and 500 NE.
Dont remember all the times but do remember that the closest I came to equiling the double was .2 of a second on the second shot and after all second shots the doubles where toast....

Agreed if you know what you are doing two shots should be all you need....

Never ever substitute acurate shot placement for speed....having lead in the air just brings hope rather only take the shot when you are sure....

May be different for hunters vs PH and foot safari field guide but the principle should be the same.

Each can use what they prefer but I do as explained above and it has always worked for me.

 

[calling4life]

I am not one for videos but perhaps an explanation might give some insight.

First of I am not sure who receives this training....I would imagine more hunters and game rangers than profesiinal hunters or tour guides....

What they do have right is that the actiins need to be forcefull....

Now having the bolt head between thumb and fore finger is a bad idea...this is one of the main reasons for short stroking...
I use the palm of my hand up back all the way just swivel your palm and all the way forward and down....no chance of stopping the bolt until it is all the way back....simple...

Dont know of any ph or dangerous game foot safari guide who uses the optics as shown on this video....I personaly use iron sight and prefer ghost ring rear sight not shallow V..

The moment the shot is fired the rifle recoils as it goes back your head lifts off the stock and out of the way as your palm goes to bolt and the up and rear stroke starts as the rifle comes back down the revers takes place and the bolt is slammed shut and your cheak welds back onto the stock...while your head is off the stock your sight should remain on whatever you have shot at and not down at the action with your rifle down out of your shoulder....
I might add that a DG game rifle needs to be a 100% functional and you should sort out any issues before using it as a dg rifle or get rid of it and find ine that is 100% reliable.

I agree here and can't help but think, doesn't my video above demonstrate this for you, perhaps not perfectly, as I had other intentions for this work, but more or less...?

I use the meat of my hand through the bolt throw, not fingers and certainly not just a couple fingers, head comes up for a moment, brass ejecting may easily be witnessed with peripheral vision, back down on stock as POA/POI/target reacquired and second shot breaks.

Even manipulation of the bolt closure on empty gun is done with the meat of my hand (palm area).

Playback at .25 speed shows this, fingers are merely used to assist with meat (palm) of hand curling around bolt, not used themselves on the bolt knob for bolt manipulation.

Makes for a very positive and forceful bolt throw.

And as ugly and utilitarian as that Hornady Bolt ball is, I absolutely love it, sinks dead center into my palm well and provides positive traction throughout bolt manipulation. *As an aside.

 

[VertigoBE]

I am not one for videos but perhaps an explanation might give some insight.

First of I am not sure who receives this training....I would imagine more hunters and game rangers than profesiinal hunters or tour guides....

What they do have right is that the actiins need to be forcefull....

Now having the bolt head between thumb and fore finger is a bad idea...this is one of the main reasons for short stroking...
I use the palm of my hand up back all the way just swivel your palm and all the way forward and down....no chance of stopping the bolt until it is all the way back....simple...

Dont know of any ph or dangerous game foot safari guide who uses the optics as shown on this video....I personaly use iron sight and prefer ghost ring rear sight not shallow V..

The moment the shot is fired the rifle recoils as it goes back your head lifts off the stock and out of the way as your palm goes to bolt and the up and rear stroke starts as the rifle comes back down the revers takes place and the bolt is slammed shut and your cheak welds back onto the stock...while your head is off the stock your sight should remain on whatever you have shot at and not down at the action with your rifle down out of your shoulder....
I might add that a DG game rifle needs to be a 100% functional and you should sort out any issues before using it as a dg rifle or get rid of it and find ine that is 100% reliable.

After the first shot if a second is availible it should be taken on dg. If not and the animal is still in view move and position for second shot. If availible take it if not keep moving if you have to and trying to get that second shot only if the animal is visible.

If a second shot was taken and movement is posible with animal still in sight this is the time to reload again without the need to look down at your rifle action.

As soon as sight is lost of the animal the persuit should stop and it is time to have a quick break, reload and reflect on what happened and the plan made before follow up.

We did a test many moons ago...4 esperienced hunters and ph's...two using doubles and two using bolt actions....it was not only speed but also acuracy so you had to hit the target(in the vitals)and if memory serves me correctly the distance was 20 or 25 meters and the target was a buffalo(with the vitals marked on the back).
458 Lott and 500 Jeff vs 470 NE and 500 NE.
Dont remember all the times but do remember that the closest I came to equiling the double was .2 of a second on the second shot and after all second shots the doubles where toast....

Agreed if you know what you are doing two shots should be all you need....

Never ever substitute acurate shot placement for speed....having lead in the air just brings hope rather only take the shot when you are sure....

May be different for hunters vs PH and foot safari field guide but the principle should be the same.

Each can use what they prefer but I do as explained above and it has always worked for me.

Thank you @IvW I’ll try that out.

 

[calling4life]

One thing I'd like to note as it appears I haven't and that is not cool.

Thank you to the OP and the original post with the videos, I appreciate seeing that, regardless of potential disagreements elsewhere.

Truly

 

[Frederik]

Those shoots/matches look like great fun. I would think that they provide a perfect opportunity for owners/shooters to get to know their rifles and discover any faults with the firearm or their technique.

Federick, I noticed that you said a formal was applied to the score/results to allow for different cartridges / energy ...just wondering if you apply any handicap for those using optics (red dots/scopes) over iron sights.

thanks for posting the videos .

R eight,

Long ago yes there was a difference between open sights and scopes the days before red dots.
Now we don't discern between them you picth up with what you are going to hunt with and test your gear. I have done well shooting scope, open sight and reflex sight and the top shooters are very close to each other with scores even if some is scope or open sights.

The ranges always change one day your better off with a scope the other none when targets charge and are very close.

 

[Frederik]

Here is some more videos first one is me shooting the buffalo range someone took the video and passed it on to me didn't know I was recorded. I started on this range Saturday and I must say I started slow but things got better from there and I started to speed up with the other two ranges.

For the first 5 shots, Scope would have advantage to see the buffalo's vitals easier. Like mentioned before our scoring is even smaller we basically only score on heart shots on body shots.

I was the second fastest in overal time over the 3 ranges out of 100 shooters so am not too slow.

Video, below is what I would call proof is in the pudding and I suppose the lion would have loved if I was slower at reloading and shooting. With enough range time muscle memory just takes over.

Here is an oldish video 2015 it wasn't a good day for me but that is why we keep at it.
375 H&H open sights.

Another from 2019 elephant range if I recall I missed 1 hit.
375 H&H again.

 

[VertigoBE]

Here is some more videos first one is me shooting the buffalo range someone took the video and passed it on to me didn't know I was recorded. I started on this range Saturday and I must say I started slow but things got better from there and I started to speed up with the other two ranges.

For the first 5 shots, Scope would have advantage to see the buffalo's vitals easier. Like mentioned before our scoring is even smaller we basically only score on heart shots on body shots.

I was the second fastest in overal time over the 3 ranges out of 100 shooters so am not too slow.

Video, below is what I would call proof is in the pudding and I suppose the lion would have loved if I was slower at reloading and shooting. With enough range time muscle memory just takes over.

Here is an oldish video 2015 it wasn't a good day for me but that is why we keep at it.
375 H&H open sights.

Another from 2019 elephant range if I recall I missed 1 hit.
375 H&H again.

Those training videos, and then that amazing action on the lion is enough proof for me! You know how to handle a big bore @Frederik !

 

[Frederik]

Thank you Jurgen.

You have a few things to look out for and also start playing with your own big bores.

 

[VertigoBE]

One thing I have noticed, practicing trying to cycle the bolt on my Dumoulin 7x64, using the different techniques.

With the 1-6x24 scope on, cycling from the shoulder is very complicated. Having very little space between the bolt knob and the rear scope bell, means I cannot get a good purchase on it, and both the thumb/index finger, as well as upward palm techniques are not very satisfactory. Thumb/index actually works slightly better, because the bolt knob in the upward palm, is basically just being held by my pinky. If I would try to have more meat of my palm as a purchase on the bolt know, I tend to short stroke due to my hand being stopped by the rearward scope bell. Therefore taking the rifle of the shoulder helps with the otherwise limited purchase of my palm on the bolt handle. With the scope, it feels like I have less issues by taking the rifle off the shoulder to cycle.

Without the 1-6x24 scope on, so iron's only, cycling from the shoulder using the upward palm technique is much easier, and does not necessitate taking the rifle from the shoulder. This works quite well actually.

So as a conclusion, from my very limited experience and practice, both cycling from the shoulder and off the shoulder techniques seem to have merit. Meaning I'll practice for both as well.

btw, @Frederik, it seems that the AH consensus is that big bores only start from above .375H&H. So I still need to catch up

 

[Frederik]

Have fun, big bore or not 375 H&H can and have killed everything

 

[Forrest Halley]

Gee this looks fun. I'd be the slow guy with the single shot enjoying himself.