Big Bore Addiction Group

[bassasdaindia]

Cool video , thanks for sharing

 

[8x68]

Shooting is definitely therapeutic treatment. If the shooting goes well, it's a great confidence builder.

I would tend to agree except.........when it doesn't go well...then it's like dealing with pre menstrual women at the wrong time of the month that went into the bathroom and found all that lovely beard stubble in the sink because you just shaved. In attempting to cleaning up.....well you didn't! Do I speak from experience....Hell Yeah!
Neat video.

 

[Gce61]

Great video!

 

[Badboymelvin]

Hey guys,

I have owned a few big rifles including a Zastava .375 H&H (probably not a true Big Bore) a custom
.375 Weatherby and 3 .458's. 2 CZ550's - (one a hogsback stock and the other ended up being a full custom) and the latest (and I think my favourite) a Winchester M70. The M70 I bought is interesting in the fact that it was quite well known in several hunting/shooting forums.
When first bought by the previous owner it was a real dud! The bedding was done incorrectly so the wood behind the tang chipped, it wouldn't feed, the barrel band sling swivel was loose and it was just a poor example of what should have been a good rifle.
The owner contemplated getting his money back but instead decided to get it fixed. The gunshop he bought it off came to the party and chipped in to get it fixed and one by one all the problems were fixed and the owner kept everyone updated by posting pics and updates.
The end product turned out so good the owner went to the Northern Territory and shot some buffalo with it!
And now its mine!
I just love this rifle. Firstly I love M70's and secondly I love the .458WM cartridge. Theres something just right about a 500gn at 2150fps for DG.
I haven't had a chance to use it on game yet and when I do it won't be an elephant or buffalo unfortunately, it will be one of Victoria's mighty Sambar deer. But it'll still be a great hunt because I'll be using my favourite rifle

 

[matt85]

@Badboymelvin are you actually getting 2150fps from your 458 WM? what ammunition are you using?

-matt

 

[Badboymelvin]

I'm using handloads in my .458.
I'm loading 76gn of AR2206H behind a Woodleigh PP in a Winchester case sparked by a
CCI mag primer.
I was loading 77.5gn and getting 2250fps but when I deliberately left both rifle and cartridge in the sun so they were both to hot to touch and fired it, I felt a bit of stickiness when opening the bolt so I backed it off.
I was ever only after 2150fps and I got it easily...

Winchester factory ammo chrono'd at spot on 2000fps with the big 510gr pill.

I don't want this to turn into a WM vs Lott thing as it's been done to death but with top handloads the difference between the 2 isn't as much as most people think.

This was taken 10mtrs from the muzzle.

 

[enysse]

Badboymelvin, nice to hear about you .458 Win, sounds like a keeper!

 

[matt85]

nicely done, with careful hand loading using proper powders it is possible to get these velocities.

don't want this to turn into a WM vs Lott thing as it's been done to death but with top handloads the difference between the 2 isn't as much as most people think.

i will have to disagree with there not being much of difference between the cartridges. you can fit a great deal more powder in a 458 Lott which means a great deal more power OR much lower pressures. the standard velocity of 2300fps is hardly the limit for the cartridge but no more velocity is really needed.

-matt

 

[sierraone]

Gorgeous M70, regardless of bullet speed! M70s have always been my favorite in their price range. Is that not a custom safari express? Or is it the standard safari express? With all due respect, if you don't already know, you should find out, the custom is worth considerably more than the standard. And I really want to know also!!!

 

[Badboymelvin]

nicely done, with careful hand loading using proper powders it is possible to get these velocities.



i will have to disagree with there not being much of difference between the cartridges. you can fit a great deal more powder in a 458 Lott which means a great deal more power OR much lower pressures. the standard velocity of 2300fps is hardly the limit for the cartridge but no more velocity is really needed.

-matt

Matt,
With respect I have to disagree with your comment about the Lott having a great deal more power than the WM.
With top loads while staying UNDER max pressure for both cartridges the Lott has 10% more case capacity - but this does not mean 10% more velocity. In actual fact it equates to a velocity increase of approx 4%.
This isn't my opinion, this is a ballistic fact. I don't believe 4% is a startling increase.
You say that 2300fps is hardly the limit for the Lott but I think that if you wish to stay under max pressure it is getting close. In my reloading manual (Nick Harvey's Practical Reloading Manual) the highest max load I could find for the Lott is 2350fps.

Michael McCourry of B&M rifle/cartridge fame did some pretty intensive load testing for both the Lott and WM and this included pressure testing as well and his tests proved that the Lott had an average velocity increase of approx 100fps. With the 450gn BBW#13 Solid CEB, both the Lott and the WM running absolute flat out (while staying under max pressure) reached 2500fps and 2350fps respectively. In this case the Lott had a 150fps increase and this was the most out of all the extensive testing done.

(All this testing information is available on the B&M website and is worth a good look if you own either a Lott or a WM. The website is www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com )

So of course the Lott has a higher MV due to its bigger case but its in the region of 100 - 150fps which I don't consider a huge margin. The fashion is to now load the Lott to 2150fps with low pressure but I can name off the top of my head half a dozen loads that will do 2150fps in the WM and stay under max pressure too...

It really is a shame that the .458 Winchester Magnum can't be mentioned without it being compared to the Lott. The .458 can achieve 96% of what the Lott can achieve and do it in a standard length action. This doesn't make it better than the Lott but it does make it an excellent, proven DG round and one that shouldn't just be dismissed...

 

[Badboymelvin]

Gorgeous M70, regardless of bullet speed! M70s have always been my favorite in their price range. Is that not a custom safari express? Or is it the standard safari express? With all due respect, if you don't already know, you should find out, the custom is worth considerably more than the standard. And I really want to know also!!!

Hey mate,

Thank you for the compliment!
My .458 is the standard Safari Express and I just double checked because you got me all excited!
I agree the M70's are just great rifles. Like you, they're my favorite in the price range too..

Cheers,

Russ.

 

[matt85]

you said:

I don't want this to turn into a WM vs Lott thing as it's been done to death but with top handloads the difference between the 2 isn't as much as most people think.

then you said:

It really is a shame that the .458 Winchester Magnum can't be mentioned without it being compared to the Lott.

you were the one comparing the two cartridges... i like both cartridges and believe both are perfectly suitable for dangerous game. all i said was that with the greater case capacity the Lott was capable of greater power or lower pressure.

So of course the Lott has a higher MV due to its bigger case but its in the region of 100 - 150fps which I don't consider a huge margin.

as for 150 fps not being a huge margin, that's an extra 727 ft/lb of energy with a 450gr bullet. for reference a 357 magnum cartridge only produces 500-600 ft/lb of energy but still has enough power to take medium sized game. this would make 727 ft/lb of energy fairly substantial. having spent the last year dedicated to shooting some of the largest hunting rifles ever made i can assure you even 50fps can make a noticeable difference if the bullet is heavy enough.

however, i still believe both cartridges are suitable for DG regardless of whether one is more powerful then the other. a 460 WBY is much more powerful then the 458 Lott but that does not make the 458 Lott (or the 458 WM) any less useful.

-matt

 

[Badboymelvin]

We're going to have to agree to disagree about 50 -150 fps being a huge step up in velocity.
I just don't consider it so but if you do that's fine.

So lets say we internet handshake and move on!

Russ.

 

[matt85]

We're going to have to agree to disagree about 50 -150 fps being a huge step up in velocity.
I just don't consider it so but if you do that's fine.

So lets say we internet handshake and move on!

Russ.

sounds good, no hard feelings on my end.

-matt

 

[Badboymelvin]

Hi guys,

I thought I'd share some load data for the .458WM for .458users about there. I got this information off a former well known Australian gun writer. I won't give his name publicly on this forum but he would have to be one (if not THE) Australia's foremost expert on big bores and is one of the worlds most knowledgable authorities on the .460 Weatherby magnum. He's also a top bloke.
In my correspondences with him he gave me a copy of his reloading info (and notes) so I thought I'd share them for any .458 fans out there.
Of course max loads are to be approached with caution and the usual rule of backing off 10% and working up should be applied.

I hope this information can be a help to someone. It certainly has helped me.

Cheers,

Russ.



.458 Load data. 22 inch Model 70 Super Grade

72gn AA2230-500 Barnes solid - 2220 fps (for elephant)
73gn AA2230-450 Barnes solid - 2320 fps (for elephant)
73gn AA2230-450 Barnes TSX - 2275 fps (for non-dangerous stuff)
77gn AA2230-350 Hornady SP - 2510 fps (for non-dangerous stuff)


350gn Barnes X 78gn H 4198 - 2582 fps (cases fell out of the chamber)
400gn Barnes X 74gn H 4198 - 2434 fps (slightly compressed)
400gn Barnes X 76gn H 322 - 2380 fps
450gn Barnes TSX 72gn H 322 - 2381 fps (mild and slightly compressed)
450gn Barnes TSX 68gn H 4198 - 2359 fps (mild and most accurate load)


550gn Woodleigh
65gn H 4198 - 1998 fps
67gn H 322 - 1945 fps
68gn H 322 - 1973 fps
69gn H 322 - 2020 fps
70gn H 322 - 2048 fps (Heavy Recoil. Great dangerous game load)


300gn Remington (24 inch barrel Mark X Mauser)
70gn Rel 7 - 2308 fps
71gn Rel 7 - 2386 fps
68gn IMR 4198 - 2491 fps
69gn IMR 4198 - 2514 fps (Compressed load)


(Tested in 22 inch Barrel Model 70 Super Grade)

300gn Hornady
73gn AR 2207 - 2571 fps
74gn AR 2207 - 2595 fps


300gn Barnes X
75gn AR 2207 - 2640 fps (Best all round load for medium game)


350gn Barnes TSX
78gn H 4198 - 2582 fps (Mild Great load)
75gn AA2230 - 2352 fps
78gn AA2230 - 2424 fps
76gn H 322 - 2434 fps (.765")


400gn Woodleigh
75gn Rel 7 - 2244 fps (1 hole accuracy)
77gn Rel 7 - 2283 fps (Very good load)
74gn H 322 - 2336 fps (Mild good load)
74gn H 4198 - 2454 fps (5350ft/lbs Mild)
80gn AA2230 - 2457fps (AA Manual MAX)
74gn AR 2207 - 2417 fps
75gn AR 2207 - 2437 fps


400gn Barnes X
74gn H 4198 - 2434 fps (Great Big Game Load)
74gn H 322 - 2363 fps
76gn H 322 - 2380 fps


400gn Speer FP
58gn AR 2207 - 1857 fps (.45/70 Marlin Duplication load)


405gn Remington
75gn Rel 12 - 2011 fps (24 inch barrel Mark X Mauser)
77gn Rel 12 - 2071 fps
72gn Rel 7 - 2286 fps
73gn Rel 7 - 2328 fps
67gn IMR 4198 - 2233 fps
68gn IMR 4198 - 2271 fps


450gn Barnes TSX
72gn H 322 - 2381 fps (MAX - Not Compressed)
71gn AA2230 - 2173 fps
72gn AA2230 - 2186 fps
67gn H 4198 - 2292 fps (Mild)
68gn H 4198 - 2359 fps


500gn Hornady RN
65gn IMR 4198 - 2065 fps
66gn IMR 4198 - 2078 fps (Top load)
73gn IMR 4064 - 1960 fps (Compressed load)
65gn Rel 7 - 2032 fps
66gn Rel 7 - 2041 fps
75gn Rel 12 - 1981 fps
76gn Rel 12 - 2034 fps
65gn AR 2207 - 2093 fps
66gn AR 2207 - 2119 fps (Top load)


500gn Hornady Solid
72gn IMR 3031 - 1980 fps
74gn IMR 3031 - 2065 fps


500gn Barnes SOLID
72gn H335 - 2183 fps (Barnes # 4 MAX)
74gn AA2460 - 2192 fps (AA Manual MAX)

 

[matt85]

thanks for the load data, im sure that will assist some 458 WM users.

-matt

 

[matt85]

on Sunday I got around to doing some more work with my 585 HE and testing cartridges a little more. sadly the weather didn't behave itself an I wasn't able to get the chronograph out.

I recently drilled out the stock and added some lead shot to the butt which brought the weight up to 12 pounds 2 ounces and improved the balance greatly. this warranted some shooting despite not being able to use the chronograph. so I loaded a dozen cartridges up with 750gr Barnes TSX bullets over 145gr of IMR 4350 which I can roughly guess to produce around 2050fps. ive tested 140gr of IMR 4350 in the past and yielded around 1950fps so I roughly estimated another 5gr should hopefully get 2050-2100fps.

accuracy was terrible but ive never had good luck with Barnes .585" bullets as they are way to undersized with a true diameter of .582". however it did give me an idea of recoil levels at full NE velocities. I determined the better balance helped greatly and had no trouble firing these cartridges however there is still room for improvement. the balance point is still to far forward so I think I may add another 3-4 ounces to the butt which should do the trick on leveling the gun out. id like to avoid adding more then that because the gun is already about as heavy as I want it to be.

-matt

 

[gizmo]

Recoil good
Scotch good
'Nuff said

Cody as always you speak true wisdom. I'd have to swap the scotch for rum though.

 

[matt85]

I'd have to swap the scotch for rum though.

heresy!

now to redeem yourself you must let me shoot some pigs for free.

-matt

 

[ActionBob]

id like to avoid adding more then that because the gun is already about as heavy as I want it to be.

Matt are you trying to keep at a good hunting weight!?